Dec. 5, 2021

The Power of Psychedelic Assisted Therapies

The Power of Psychedelic Assisted Therapies
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The Power of Psychedelic Assisted Therapies
The Power of Psychedelic Assisted Therapies
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Season 6 Personal Growth & Healing

In this episode, Cass chats with Tania de Jong AM, who is a social entrepreneur, incredibly talented soprano and co-founder of the not-for-profit, Mind Medicine Australia. MMA’s core mission is to advocate for widespread acceptance and accessibility of psychedelic-assisted therapies to alleviate the suffering caused by mental illness in Australia. Tania shares the remarkable results that are being achieved with psychedelic-assisted therapies for a range of mental illnesses, what the current status is in terms of TGA approval and availability, how therapists can upskill in this area and what consumers can expect in terms of access to these treatments.
And as a bonus, we’ve included Tania’s “Angel Song” in the outro so stay listening for that.
To find out more about Mind Medicine Australia:www.mindmedicineaustralia.org.au
For Tania’s music and to see her TED Talk:https://www.taniadejong.com/singing-performing/
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypodwww.tiktok.com/crappytohappypod
Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

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www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
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Transcript
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A listener production.

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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host castunn.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, a mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In

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this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

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people who are experts in their field and who have

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something of value to share that will help you feel

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less crappy and more happy. Tanya de Jong is a

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trailblazing Australian soprano, global speaker, award winning social entrepreneur, creative

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innovation catalyst and spiritual journey woman. Tanya is one of

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Australia's most successful female entrepreneurs and innovators, having developed six

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businesses and three charities over the past three decades. And

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if that wasn't impressive enough, she was also appointed a

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Member of the Order of Australia in two thousand and eight.

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She's been aimed one of the top one hundred Women

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of Influence and the one hundred most influential entrepreneurs in Australia,

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and in twenty twenty one she was named as one

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of the one hundred most influential people in psychedelics globally.

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This is what I was particularly interested in talking with

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her about. Tanya, alongside her husband Peter Hunt, recently co

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founded Mind Medicine Australia, a charity whose objective is for

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psychedelic assisted psychotherapies to play a major role in improving

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the treatments available for Australians who suffer from mental illness. Now,

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as we know, mental illness here in Australia and around

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the world was on the rise even before the pandemic,

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and the current best available treatments still have limitations in

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terms of their long term effectiveness for many people around

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the world. Now, psychedelic assisted therapies are on the cusp

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of widespread acceptance as a breakthrough therapy for key classes

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of mental illness. They have been shown to be very safe,

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non addictive when used in a medically controlled environment, and

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they have been trialed as treatments for things like depression, PTSD, anxiety,

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end of life distress, dementia, anorexia, and opioid, alcohol and

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smoking addictions, as well as a whole range of other illnesses.

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These treatments are showing remission rates of up to eighty

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percent after just two to three medicinal doses in combination

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with psychotherapy. Now, look, this is a rapidly evolving space,

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and I wanted to share with you what's happening, what

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the current state of play is in terms of things

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like TGA or FDA approval, what you can do to

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support the cause, if this is something that's meaningful to you,

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or how you can learn more, for example, if you're

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a therapist who wants to upskill or know more about

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what's happening in this area, and also what you might

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have to look forward to in terms of treatment options,

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if you or somebody that you know is interested in

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exploring psychedelic assisted therapies. I am going to let Tanua

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tell you all about it. I did mention she is

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a very talented soprano. She's released twelve albums and she

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did a TED talk called how Singing Together Changes the Brain.

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And we have included a piece of Tenure's music at

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the end of this episode, so I would love for

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you to stay tuned and enjoy that, and will include

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links down below to where you can access more of

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Tanya's work, including her music. Tania, Welcome to the Crappy

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to Happy Podcast. Thank you so much for giving us

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your time today.

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It's a pleasure and an honor.

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And Tanya, before we start this interview, I need to

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say that I had the privilege of being involved in

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a part of your Mind Medicine summer over the weekend

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just gone. You had speakers there from around the world

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talking about this topic of mind medicine, psychedelics in mental

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health treatment and it was amazing and congratulations on a

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really really successful event.

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Thank you so much. Has It was really exciting. We

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had a lot of therapists at the summit, probably about

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I would think about seventy to eighty percent of the audience.

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We were therapists, you know, either doctors, psychiatrist, psychologists, psychotherapists,

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you know, nurses and social workers and so on. And yeah,

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there was just such an enormous amount of interest from

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them in the education and professional development side. But then

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we also had a lot of people who were philanthropists

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and investors and of course people with lived experience and

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consumers who were searching for solutions for their mental health challenges.

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And you know, that's why Mind Medicine Australia was set up,

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so that we could help alleviate the enormous suffering and

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suicide in our communities, much of which is avoidable.

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Yeah right, and that is exactly what I want to

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talk to you about today. So first of all, we

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just explained for listeners what is Mind Medicine Australia and

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what brought you to this point of.

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Creating Mind Medicine Australia. Yeah. So, Mind Medicine Australia is

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a registered charity which were set up by my husband

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Peter Hunt and I in early twenty nineteen to provide

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more options to doctors and their patients for those suffering

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with mental illness. And our focus is on ensuring that

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psychedelic assisted therapies can become available and accessible to treat

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people with very difficult to treat depression, post traumatic stress disorder, addictions,

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and a whole range of other conditions, because psychedelic assisted

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therapies are now considered to be the most prospective treatment

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globally for a whole range of conditions that have previously

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been treatment resistant, and also as potentially superior treatments for

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compared to the treatments that have been available for the

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past fifty or more years. So I think, as we

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all probably know, in the case of depression and treatment

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resistant depression, the remission rates from current existing treatments are

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around about thirty percent, so that's from antidepressants and or psychotherapy,

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and in the case of post traumatic stress disorder, the

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remission rates from existing treatments are as low as five percent.

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So we're effectively not getting the majority of patients well

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and out of the system. And many of your listeners

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will know that there's huge weight lists to see you

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professionals in this field, and that's because most of the

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professionals can't get their patients well. It's not a reflection

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on the therapists. There's many wonderful and carrying therapists, but

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they just don't have the tools in their toolbox. And

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so what happens is mental illness tends to become a

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life sentence for many people and they end up taking

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a daily pill that reminds them of the fact that

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they have a mental illness and have to see therapists,

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often for the rest of their lives. Whereas in the

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case of psychedelic assisted therapies, what we're seeing is patients

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going into remission after two to three medicinal treatments with

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a short course of psychotherapy and staying in remission. That's amazing,

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and one hundred and sixty current and recent trials are

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really demonstrating both the safety and effectiveness of these treatments.

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Really is remarkable. How I came to this, Well, yes,

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let's hear about that. I've never had any drugs in

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my life until about five and a half years ago.

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And so you know, not only did I not have

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any drugs, I also have never got drunk. I don't

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really like alcohol at all. I don't even have coffee.

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So singing has always been my drug of choice. And

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it is a super wonder drug, like it really wow living. Yeah,

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that's right. And singing, particularly when we sing with other people,

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does actually change our brain. It increases our neuroplasticity in

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our brain and makes us healthier, happier, smarter, more creative,

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improves our memory, language, and concentration. And I talk about

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this a lot in my TED talk how singing together

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changes the brain. So I've always been very interested in,

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you know, what makes us tick. I've always been really

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interested in psychology. I think in another life, I certainly

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wanted to be a psychologist earlier on, and so I've

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always been a bit of a hacker, a seeker, and

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a hacker. I guess. So, I've always been looking for

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experiences that can improve my health and well being, and

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also experiences that just raise my consciousness. And so I've

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tried everything you know, mantra tantra, in all kinds of

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meditation and yoga and cryotherapy, my therapy, you name it.

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I've probably tried just about everything there is to try,

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but I've never had any drugs. So I came across

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a blog of Tim Ferris, who I'm a subscriber to

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about must be nearly six years ago now, and in

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it he said that he was donating one hundred thousand

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US dollars to Imperial College for research into silocybin to

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treat depression. Well, I had no idea what silo cybin was,

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never heard of it, and I cricked on the link,

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and it was to an article in the New Yorker

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magazine which was called The Trip Treatment by Michael Poland.

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And this was before Michael Poland had written his book.

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This was about a trial that had been taking place

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at New York University for end of life terminally ill patients.

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So they, most of them, I think, had a cancer diagnosis,

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terminal cancer diagnosis, and eighty percent of the people and

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the trial who'd been suffering depression and anxiety went into

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remission after just two medicinal doses of psalo cybin with

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a short course of psychotherapy. And I thought this was remarkable.

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I couldn't believe it. And one of the patients that

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was profiled in this article was a Jewish man who

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had had some intergenerational Holocaust trauma. And my grandparents and

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parents were Holocaust survivors, and so I had always, you know,

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not been able to be in the room when anything

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about the Holocaust came on television or was on a

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film or was mentioned. And I'd also had some strange

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sort of dreams where I had sort of been there

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in the Holocaust at one of the camps, and so

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I thought this, you know, was something that, you know,

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it was very strange that this was sitting in my psyche.

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And so when I read this story of this man

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who basically said he'd come to terms and resolved and

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accepted what had happened to his family in the Holocaust,

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because of course, you know, the majority of my relatives

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were killed in the Holocaust, and this is just absolutely tragic.

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I mean that this could even happen, and I, yeah,

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it's not that I want to go and watch lots

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of Holocaust movies now or anything like that. But gradually,

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through working with these medicines, I have actually resolved that

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intergenerational trauma. Anyway, So what happened was I read this article.

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I said to my husband, we should go and try this.

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Could do you think we could get into one of

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the healthy Patients trials? And so we tried to get

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into some of the healthy Patients trials, but there weren't

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any at the time. We were going to Europe and

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as we don't qualify for having a specific mental illness

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or anything, we were then directed to a guide in

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the Netherlands and we flew to the Netherlands and we

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underwent this incredible silo cybern experience. And I should say

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to the listeners, you know, silo cyburn is actually legal

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in the Netherlands, as it is in some other countries

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around the world. This is the craziness of the world

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we live in, you know, where substances that have been

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with humanity since the beginning of human civilizations are actually

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illegal in so many countries. It's just a bizarre situation.

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And we can talk about why that happened.

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Silos syburn for listeners is LSD, right.

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No, silo cybn is a psychoactive component of magic mushrooms.

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LSD is a synthesized It's got some similarities to silo

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cybn certainly, but it's not the same. So when you

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go and pick a mushroom in a field, provided it's

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the right mushroom, it has silocin in it, which gives

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you these incredible altered states. And it's in these non

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ordinary states, and literally, I mean for my husband and I,

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we were transported into multiple different realms of consciousness, you know,

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bounded awareness, this sense of oneness and connection to self,

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to others, to the planet. That was just extraordinary, Like

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I felt like I was part of everything, that everything

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was part of me. I mean, it was truly mind blowing.

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And it made me realize that you know, what we

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see on this material plane is only a tiny fraction

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of what is really here. And it's from that place

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where of this extraordinary, mind altering non ordinary state that

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skilled therapists can then work with patients, where a patient's

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brain is so much more neuroplastic coming out of this experience,

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and it creates a real window of opportunity for trained

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therapists to then work with patients to start to really

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manage whatever anxiety or depression, addictional or other condition they're

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struggling with. And it allows the patient to then start

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to not only become more empowered for their own healing,

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but to bring the insights and learnings from that medicine

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experience back into their lives and make the changes that

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they need to make, whether it's in their life, their work,

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their community, their relationships, whatever it happens to be. And

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I mean, I can honestly say that this was the

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most profound experience in our lives, you know, like my

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husband described it as you know, on a part with

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the birth of these children, and many people do. If

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you look at the research, you'll see that most people

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will describe asalo cybin experience in the right environment, and

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this is very important. The right set and setting is critical.

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And if you have this experience in the right set

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and setting, well, most people will describe it in the

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top five most meaningful experiences in their life. In fact,

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many people describe it as the single most important and

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meaningful experience in their life. Now, whoever says that about

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a medicine exactly. You know, it's really remarkable and this

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really did change a lot of things for us. I mean,

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my husband. We all carry trauma, you know, if it's

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not our own trauma, it's ancestral trauma. In the case

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of my husband, his father had committed suicide when he

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was thirteen, and so this had been something that he'd

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been carrying with him, you know, and he thought that

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he dealt with a lot of it. But actually, you know,

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the medicines show you what you haven't necessarily fully dealt

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with and in combination with therapy. And this is why

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these treatments are cooled psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, because it's the

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combination of the medicine with the therapy that creates these

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incredible healing outcomes. That's why people are seeing those remission

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rates sixty to eighty percent across one hundred and sixty

250
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recent trials, because it's not just the medicine on its own.

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And I just need to say to all your listeners,

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you know, you could go out and try medicine, but

253
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if you don't do it in combination with the right

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set setting and proper integration with a psychologist or psychotherapist

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or a trained therapist or counselor of some kind, then

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you're probably not going to get the full benefits of

257
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this experience. And of course a lot of people now

258
00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:35.039
are hearing about psychedelic assisted therapy because it's been on

259
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the front cover of Newsweek and Time magazine and Forbes

260
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and you know, the New York Times and many of

261
00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:44.679
the leading publications around the world. So more and more

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people are seeking out these experiences underground, and there are

263
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some wonderful underground therapists. But of course there's also a

264
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risk that you won't get the full integration that is

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needed for you to experience as much here as you could.

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And so the reason why we set Upmind Medicine Australia

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was to make sure that these experiences could occur in

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clinical environments under the supervision of trained therapists, so that

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they were perfectly safe and that they were as effective

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as possible. And when I say clinical environments, I don't mean,

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you know, really bland and horrible clinical environments. I mean,

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00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:28.400
in general, the rooms that are used in all the

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trials and all the research that have been done have

274
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been made to look much more comfortable than a normal

275
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clinical room. You know, they're made to look personable and friendly,

276
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and they have beautiful things on the walls and on

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the floors, and a patient anyway is usually has an

278
00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:48.039
eyemask one because this is very much an internal journey

279
00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:52.720
into your own mind. And you're also usually having headphones

280
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on because there's a curated playlist that matches the different

281
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stages of this experience. Actually, I love creating curative playlists because,

282
00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:06.319
of course, my background as a musician means that I'm

283
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very interested in the sort of music that can help

284
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those who are having these experiences to go deeper into

285
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these experiences, and music has a fundamental place in these

286
00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:22.039
sorts of ceremonies and experiences. But yeah, that's sort of

287
00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:24.839
what happened. And then Peter and I were so blown

288
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away by this experience, literally blown away that we immediately

289
00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:33.880
started to read all the articles, we could watch all

290
00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:38.240
the videos. Then about a year later, we had a

291
00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:42.960
second experience, even stronger dose, and it was even more powerful,

292
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and then we were like, if this is affecting us

293
00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:48.119
in this way, imagine what it could do for those

294
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who are suffering with serious mental illnesses. And that's when

295
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we really started to connect with a lot of the

296
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leading researchers around the world. We started attending a lot

297
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of the conferences and events in this field, and then

298
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it really became obvious to us that Australia didn't have

299
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an ecosystem set up to ensure that these could become

300
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medical treatments within the medical mental health system in Australia,

301
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and that's when we set up Mind Medicine Australia as

302
00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:19.440
a registered charity. And Peter and I had already set

303
00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:22.920
up four previous charities, so I'd set up the Song

304
00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:27.640
Room which brings music and creative learning to schools around Australia,

305
00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:33.039
and also with One Voice program led by Creativity Australia,

306
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which a social inclusion quires again to alleviate loneliness, isolation

307
00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:41.279
and mental illness and bring communities together. And my husband

308
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Peter had set up women's community shelters for homeless women,

309
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so we were no strangers to working with people who

310
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were disadvantaged, with people who were particularly suffering with mental illnesses.

311
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And if you think about it, pretty much every kind

312
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of disadvantage, whether it's someone who's unemployed or someone and

313
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who's experiencing homelessness, whatever it happens to be usually mental

314
00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:09.400
illness lies at the heart of that disadvantage. So if

315
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we can start treating people with you know, and getting

316
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them well from their mental illness, then a lot of

317
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the other problems in our community and society will actually

318
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go away. So that's what we felt, and so we

319
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launched a charity back in the start of twenty nineteen,

320
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Mind Medicine Australia as you know, as we all know now,

321
00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:33.119
and we've put together an incredible group of not an

322
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incredible board, but a wonderful community of ambassadors and advisory panel,

323
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people with LIFT experience, many many clinicians. I mean, we

324
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probably have well over ten thousand clinicians around Australia who

325
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are wanting every kind of education and professional development that

326
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they can get in this field. And psychedelic assisted therapist

327
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is probably one of the most sexy new careers around.

328
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And we've started the first certificate and psychedelic assisted therapies

329
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in the Southern Hemisphere and the demand is through the roof.

330
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I mean we have psychiatrists, psychologists, GPS, physicians of all kinds, nurses, paramedics,

331
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social workers, occupational therapists and others applying for the course

332
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because people want to add this as an adjunct to

333
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their other skills, because most caring therapists want to get

334
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their patients.

335
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Well, yeah, I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and

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realizing the benefits of positivity in your own life. If

337
00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:44.480
you are enjoying the show, please be sure to like

338
00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:46.960
and subscribe so that you get notified when you apps

339
00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:49.640
drop and head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever

340
00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:59.359
you listen and leave us a rating and review. It's

341
00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:04.279
so so interesting and obviously this is really there's obviously

342
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:09.559
so much research accumulating to support the power of these medicines.

343
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But you did mention before that in many countries they

344
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are illegal. Are you able to just share a little

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bit of background about how they came to be illegal

346
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in some countries?

347
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In the nineteen fifties and sixties, these were seen as

348
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the next big thing for psychiatry, and over fifty thousand

349
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patients went through therapeutic medical sessions and clinical environments with

350
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psychiatrists in the US and Australia and other places. Many

351
00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:42.359
psychiatrists remember that period as the most exciting in their careers,

352
00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:44.640
when they were really getting people well and out of

353
00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:49.599
the system. And so what happened was, you know, we

354
00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:54.359
had people like stan Groff saying things like psychedelics would

355
00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:58.839
be for psychiatry, what the microscope is for biology and medicine,

356
00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:04.000
or the telescope is for astronomy. That's how they were viewed.

357
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:10.319
But unfortunately, in nineteen seventy one, President Nixon was trying

358
00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:15.000
to conscript people to the Vietnam War movement and you know,

359
00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:17.799
to go and fight in Vietnam, and all these people,

360
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:21.200
young people in particular, had dropped out because you know,

361
00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:23.079
they were having these medicines and they didn't want to

362
00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:26.440
go to war with people. And so effectively, what happened

363
00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:31.119
was he politicized the drugs, had his War on drugs

364
00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:35.680
and basically made this whole class of drugs illegal. He

365
00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:39.640
banned them altogether. And what that did was not only

366
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:41.359
did it bound the use of the drugs, but it

367
00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:45.599
also pretty much stopped all research because all research fundings stopped.

368
00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:49.880
Many people described that as the worst censorship of medicine

369
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:54.359
and science in the history of humanity, because in the

370
00:23:54.400 --> 00:24:00.440
intervening period between nineteen seventy seventy one and today, there's

371
00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:04.240
been this massive spike in loneliness and social isolation, and

372
00:24:04.279 --> 00:24:10.359
a whole range of mental illnesses. This renaissance of research

373
00:24:10.519 --> 00:24:13.119
in this field has only started again over the last

374
00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:16.240
ten to fifteen years, so these one hundred and sixty

375
00:24:16.359 --> 00:24:19.519
or so trials have taken place in that time. So

376
00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:23.440
it's been like this lost period in a sense where

377
00:24:24.440 --> 00:24:26.839
we've seen a lot of suffering, a lot of disconnection

378
00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:31.119
in our communities. And one can only imagine how much

379
00:24:31.160 --> 00:24:34.640
healthier our world would be and happier and more united,

380
00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:40.440
less divided if these medicines had have remained as treatments,

381
00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:43.559
and also if there'd been further research between then and now.

382
00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:47.200
Oh absolutely imagine how far along we would be by now,

383
00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:47.720
I know.

384
00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:52.079
And unfortunately, also what that did you know, that whole

385
00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:55.200
period of time and that war on drugs is that

386
00:24:55.319 --> 00:24:59.759
created this whole stigma around these treatments. So you know,

387
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.680
psychedelics were stigmatized and there's you know, quite a bit

388
00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:08.240
of taboo around them. And we're still working very hard

389
00:25:08.279 --> 00:25:13.119
today to educate people on the data and science because

390
00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:16.079
it's the data and science itself which is so compelling

391
00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:20.119
and so conclusive that chows just how effective and safe

392
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:24.519
these treatments can be. And in fact, even in recreational environments,

393
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:28.880
these substances in their pure form are actually extremely safe.

394
00:25:28.920 --> 00:25:33.559
I mean they're way safer than Certainly, alcohol is by

395
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:35.920
far the most dangerous drug to self and others, and

396
00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:39.200
many many research studies have shown this, but many of

397
00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:43.279
the other drugs are also far, far more dangerous. So

398
00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:48.720
silocybin and MDMA, even in recreational environments, in their pure form,

399
00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:53.519
are considered very safe. It's almost impossible to overdose from

400
00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:55.559
silo cybern. I think you have to have something like

401
00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:59.920
forty kilograms of it or something which physically impossible to ingest.

402
00:26:00.759 --> 00:26:03.720
But what happens is they get a bad name because

403
00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:08.240
they're often mixed with other drugs and alcohol and dehydration

404
00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:10.559
at dance parties and rays, and that can lead to

405
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:13.799
terrible outcomes. And that's what leads to headlines like more

406
00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:18.319
mdmay deaths. But in actual fact, they're very safe. Now

407
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:22.680
in medically controlled environments, they're extremely safe. There's not been

408
00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:25.119
a single death, there's been no heart attacks, there's been

409
00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:30.480
no adverse events of any significance across thousands and thousands

410
00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:36.400
of patients who've been trialed in these recent trials. Indeed,

411
00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:39.279
their side effect profile is also very good, so they

412
00:26:39.319 --> 00:26:43.880
have very few side effects as well. So these medicines,

413
00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:46.799
you know, have enormous potential and now there's a trillion

414
00:26:46.839 --> 00:26:50.839
dollar market growing around the world, which far exceeds the

415
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:54.960
market for cannabis, because these medicines are also now being

416
00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:57.759
trialed for a range of other conditions, not just depression

417
00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:00.799
and post traumatic stress disorder, but a whole way of addictions,

418
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:06.599
so nicotine, opioid, alcohol addiction. Plus they're being trialed for

419
00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:12.559
obsessive compulsive disorder, anorexa and eating disorders, dementia and Alzheimer's,

420
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:17.559
fibromelga stroke, Parkinson's, and they're even starting to investigate these

421
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:20.480
treatments for schizophrenia, which you know, as you know, is

422
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:26.079
extremely difficult to treat. So the future looks bright. And

423
00:27:26.359 --> 00:27:30.759
the medicines MDMAY and ssalo cybin in particular have been

424
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:34.519
granted breakthrough therapy status by the Food and Drug Administration

425
00:27:34.599 --> 00:27:38.480
of the USA, just a very rare designation only granted

426
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:41.880
to medicines that could be vastly superior to existing treatments

427
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:47.279
to fast track their approval process to prescription medicine. It's

428
00:27:47.319 --> 00:27:51.559
highly likely that because of the incredible Phase three trial

429
00:27:51.599 --> 00:27:56.160
results for MDMA, which are showing you know, sixty seven

430
00:27:56.200 --> 00:28:01.000
percent remission rates after just three medicinal treatments for patients

431
00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:05.359
who've had treatment resistant PTSD for around an average of

432
00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:09.359
fourteen years. So you can imagine the suffering of those

433
00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:12.720
patients and sixty seven percent of them are now in remission.

434
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:17.119
I mean they no longer qualify for a clinical diagnosis

435
00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:19.839
of PTSD, and you know, Cass as a psychologist just

436
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:23.680
how significant that is. So it's very likely that MDMA

437
00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:27.359
is going to be prescribable in the next twelve to

438
00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:31.519
eighteen months in the US and psilocybin will follow soon after.

439
00:28:31.640 --> 00:28:36.079
So psilo psilocybin is in Phase two B trials as

440
00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:38.839
well or in trials around the world. So it is

441
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:42.319
a very exciting time. And we're also starting to see

442
00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:48.400
these therapies being granted special access compassionate use approvals in

443
00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:52.200
a number of jurisdictions around the world, including in Australia,

444
00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:57.720
which is where a psychiatrist or specialist physician who has

445
00:28:57.720 --> 00:29:01.240
a patient whose treatment resistant can get approvals through the

446
00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:05.160
regulators to treat patients on a case by case basis

447
00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:08.680
with either psalo cyber or mdmasistic therapy. Wow, And so

448
00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:12.359
that's also very exciting. We're still dealing with state barriers

449
00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:18.039
in Australia because in Australia, these medicines are still Schedule nine,

450
00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:22.160
which means that the states have them as prohibited substances.

451
00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:26.880
But we're working really hard with the Therapeutic Goods Administration Australia.

452
00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:32.480
So we put in rescheduling applications last year and there's

453
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:35.440
going to be an announcement on our rescheduling applications in

454
00:29:35.799 --> 00:29:39.599
the next couple of weeks. So fingers crossed that they

455
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:42.920
are rescheduled Schedule eight controlled medicine, which is where they

456
00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:47.480
should rightly have been sitting anyway. So ketamine sits in

457
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:51.559
Schedule AID, as does cannabis. And it doesn't mean that

458
00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:54.839
this opens the floodgates. It doesn't mean that patients can

459
00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:56.920
get to take the medicines home and pick them up

460
00:29:56.920 --> 00:29:59.880
at the pharmacy. But it does mean that in cont

461
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:04.599
old environments there can be access granted to patients, and

462
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:08.079
that's really important because there's a lot of suffering in

463
00:30:08.119 --> 00:30:11.079
this country, an incredible amount of suicide. You know, the

464
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:16.279
mental health statistics in our country were terrible pre COVID.

465
00:30:16.319 --> 00:30:19.559
We had the second worst mental health statistics in the

466
00:30:19.559 --> 00:30:23.519
world of all OECD nations, just ahead of Iceland. Wow,

467
00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:26.799
and we have way more sunshine than Iceland. So pre

468
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:29.799
COVID one in five Australians had a mental illness. It's

469
00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:33.880
now suggested that four out of five australians mental health

470
00:30:33.880 --> 00:30:38.519
has severely deteriorated through this crisis. Pre COVID one in

471
00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:42.319
eight Australians were on antidepressants, one in four older adults

472
00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:45.720
and one in thirty children as young as four. Those

473
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:50.640
figures have exacerbated terribly. So we really need to do

474
00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:53.200
something about this because this is personal for every one

475
00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:55.519
of us. If it's not us, it's someone who's close

476
00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:58.759
to us, a family member or work colleague, someone we

477
00:30:58.839 --> 00:31:02.319
care about, who's suffering and who current treatments are not

478
00:31:02.440 --> 00:31:05.920
working for. And that's not to say that current treatments

479
00:31:05.960 --> 00:31:09.000
don't work for some patients. They do work for some patients,

480
00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:10.319
but just not enough patients.

481
00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:13.799
No, well exactly. And you know, as I said, Tanya,

482
00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:15.799
I sat in on the summit. I couldn't stay for

483
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:18.960
the whole event, but for what I did see the

484
00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:24.200
research is it's incredible the results that are coming out

485
00:31:24.359 --> 00:31:27.839
of these studies, and I think that the population is

486
00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:32.640
so used to treatment is long and slow and not

487
00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:35.640
that helpful. There is that idea that if you have

488
00:31:35.799 --> 00:31:39.160
these mental illnesses, that you have them for life, and

489
00:31:39.160 --> 00:31:42.640
people are very skeptical. I think about this, how rapidly

490
00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:45.200
things can turn around, and the idea that something could

491
00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:49.160
actually be curative, you know, like it can be cured

492
00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:53.839
in two to three sessions. Yes, people just have a

493
00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:56.279
hard time grasping that. And you're right, it takes a

494
00:31:56.319 --> 00:31:57.960
real lot of education.

495
00:31:58.119 --> 00:32:01.000
Well, that's right. So most of the treatments that are

496
00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:04.000
around at the moment tend to be palliative. You know,

497
00:32:04.039 --> 00:32:07.640
they're managing someone's condition. And someone who can speak very

498
00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:10.599
well about that is Andrew Robb, the former Minister for

499
00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:13.119
Trade for the Australian government who's on our board, and

500
00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:17.519
he's been suffering with treatment resistant depression for forty three

501
00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:20.440
years and at last count, I think was on his

502
00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:25.640
thirteenth antidepressant. And you know what often happens is the

503
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:29.720
antidepressant may give a bit of uplift and you know,

504
00:32:29.880 --> 00:32:32.160
may work for a time, but then often it plateaus

505
00:32:32.200 --> 00:32:34.880
out and then the doctor might say, we have to

506
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:38.039
increase your dose or try a different one, and so

507
00:32:38.119 --> 00:32:39.839
it tends to be a bit of a lucky dip

508
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:42.400
and a lot of the time that is just managing

509
00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:44.960
the condition. Yeah, it means that the person can function,

510
00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:49.400
but are they functioning at their full potential? Not really,

511
00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:53.559
And also what that often means is that a person

512
00:32:54.039 --> 00:32:59.880
has a numbing of their full emotional landscape, so that

513
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:04.319
a person can feel more in a gray zone and

514
00:33:04.359 --> 00:33:07.759
they're not feeling the full peaks and troughs of what

515
00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:10.839
it means to be human being with the full range

516
00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:14.960
of emotional experience that is part of our human birthright.

517
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:19.880
So Andrew is rightly really angry that he can't get

518
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:25.279
access to this therapy, particularly psilocybin assisted therapy, to treat

519
00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:30.279
him with his treatment resistant depression. And doctor Simon Longstaff,

520
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:32.880
who's on our board, who's the head of the Ethics Center,

521
00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:37.200
says that it's unethical for these treatments not to be

522
00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:41.200
available to Australians who are suffering and medically controlled environments.

523
00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:45.799
And so we're working really hard with the regulators with

524
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:50.240
communities around Australia to really educate and create awareness of

525
00:33:50.279 --> 00:33:54.000
the data and science around these medicines. I mean it's

526
00:33:54.119 --> 00:33:56.440
very important to say that there was a study done

527
00:33:56.519 --> 00:34:02.559
earlier this year directly comparing cybern assisted therapy with estelepram,

528
00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:07.880
which is one of the leading SSRI antidepressants, and what

529
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:12.679
that trial showed was that the patients who had just

530
00:34:12.760 --> 00:34:17.239
two doses of silas cybn versus a daily dose of

531
00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:22.119
estelepram for six weeks, well, the silo cybn group twice

532
00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:27.079
as many of them went into remission as the antidepressant group,

533
00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:30.360
and they had far less side effects and less suicidal ideation.

534
00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:35.440
So this really just goes to prove just how effective

535
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:38.000
these treatments are and how many more patients they could

536
00:34:38.039 --> 00:34:40.360
be getting well and out of the system. That was

537
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:42.719
in the New England Journal, which is one of the

538
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:47.639
leading medical journals. So we're starting to see these really

539
00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:52.239
leading trials from leading institutions around the world. And you know,

540
00:34:52.840 --> 00:34:56.400
now Harvard, Yale, Oxford, Impure College, you know, and in

541
00:34:56.440 --> 00:34:59.519
Australian mon S University and many of the other universities

542
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:04.360
are starting to really lead in research and development in

543
00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:07.800
this field because everyone, i think is cottoning on to

544
00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:10.519
the fact that this is the next big thing. Yes,

545
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:13.400
it's been a delay of fifty years. But once again,

546
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:17.159
we're at a stage where we could reduce the suffering

547
00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:22.159
in our communities, enormously in our families, and wouldn't that

548
00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:25.639
be wouldn't that be wonderful? Everyone deserves the chance to

549
00:35:25.719 --> 00:35:27.440
lead a meaningful and happy life.

550
00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:28.000
Yeah.

551
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:28.679
Absolutely.

552
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:34.639
And you reminded me of Johann Hari, who obviously was

553
00:35:35.360 --> 00:35:39.679
involved in the summit, and he also has spoken and written.

554
00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:41.920
His book, Lost Connections was all about how he was

555
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:44.440
put on antidepressants at a very young age and it

556
00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:47.679
did make him feel better temporarily, and as he got older,

557
00:35:47.719 --> 00:35:49.599
of course, the depression came back. And the answer was

558
00:35:49.639 --> 00:35:50.920
just to give him a higher dose, and to give

559
00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:52.719
him a higher dose, and to continue to give him

560
00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:54.800
a higher dose. And so I think there are a

561
00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:58.519
lot of people who really relate to that scenario. There

562
00:35:58.519 --> 00:36:02.199
are a lot of people living in those circumstances.

563
00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:05.880
Well, that's exactly right. And the interesting thing about Johann

564
00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:08.840
Hari and his Lost Connections book, which is wonderful and

565
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:12.840
I recommend it to everyone listening, is that he talks

566
00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:16.400
about seven different types of disconnection that we can have,

567
00:36:16.519 --> 00:36:20.639
and that could be disconnection to self, you know, to others,

568
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:25.800
the community, to work to the planet. And the wonderful

569
00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:29.079
thing about these medicines is they connect you to all

570
00:36:29.119 --> 00:36:34.440
of those things and they really do create this window

571
00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:38.239
of opportunity for patients to get well and you don't

572
00:36:38.280 --> 00:36:42.800
have to keep dosing yourself up on pharmacological drugs that

573
00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:46.960
effectively have quite a lot of side effects and are

574
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:50.519
also very difficult to withdraw from. The remarkable thing about

575
00:36:50.519 --> 00:36:53.440
these medicines, as I said, is that after just two

576
00:36:53.480 --> 00:36:56.800
to three treatments in the right set, you know, the

577
00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:02.599
right safe, warm, supported setting, with the right therapeutic support.

578
00:37:03.159 --> 00:37:06.480
When people have that, they are able to get well

579
00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:09.960
and they're able to feel connected again to all the

580
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:15.159
things that they've felt disconnected from. And this is so important.

581
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:16.239
It's a wonderful gift.

582
00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:19.840
The work you are doing, Tanya is just incredible. We

583
00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:23.000
are so grateful to you and Peter for launching mind

584
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:26.280
Medicine Australia, obviously much needed in this country. I did

585
00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:28.960
want to ask you just one question before we wind

586
00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:33.360
this up, and for somebody listening, I'm really keen to know, well,

587
00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:36.320
what is the next step. When will these medications, When

588
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:39.320
will these medicines be available to me or to somebody

589
00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:42.159
that I know and love who is suffering. You mentioned

590
00:37:42.199 --> 00:37:46.559
twelve to eighteen months in the States. How far behind

591
00:37:46.840 --> 00:37:49.480
do you think Australia will be in terms of getting

592
00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:50.880
these regulated.

593
00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:55.639
Well, firstly, just to say, psychiatrists and specialist physicians in

594
00:37:55.679 --> 00:38:00.000
Australia have already been getting Special Access Scheme be approved

595
00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:04.599
through the Therapeutic Goods Administration, so they're getting federal approvals.

596
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:08.239
But we're still having obstacles in the States because of

597
00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:11.840
the scheduling of the medicines and the fact that they

598
00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:17.960
don't recognize the medicines for medical use. However, we're working

599
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:21.639
hard to get over those barriers. So the rescheduling decision

600
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:27.199
will hear more about in December, and then in terms

601
00:38:27.239 --> 00:38:31.840
of the actual prescription of these medicines, the Therapeutic Goods

602
00:38:31.880 --> 00:38:36.960
Administration has indicated that, you know, they will follow very

603
00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:41.320
soon after whatever happens with the FDA and the US

604
00:38:41.360 --> 00:38:44.719
and whatever happens in Europe as well, So I think

605
00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:47.199
they're going to be pretty front footed in making sure

606
00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:53.360
that these treatments are available to Australians as soon as possible,

607
00:38:54.039 --> 00:38:59.039
and we're working closely with a number of the organizations

608
00:38:59.079 --> 00:39:02.079
around the world to make sure that they do become

609
00:39:02.119 --> 00:39:05.599
available as soon as possible, and also with the Therapeutic

610
00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:10.079
Goods administration, so it's not long ago. And I just

611
00:39:10.079 --> 00:39:13.039
want to say to everyone out there, if you're suffering

612
00:39:13.039 --> 00:39:16.079
with mental illness or someone close to you is, or

613
00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:18.480
you're a therapist who's got lots of patients who is,

614
00:39:19.159 --> 00:39:21.519
there's just not that long to go. There is hope

615
00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:26.880
on the horizon, and please do support Mind Medicine Australia

616
00:39:27.559 --> 00:39:29.760
in any way that you can. You know, there's so

617
00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:33.280
many things that people can do, you can volunteer for us,

618
00:39:33.639 --> 00:39:36.079
there's so many ways to get involved, and we really

619
00:39:36.159 --> 00:39:40.639
welcome you to learn more mind Medicine Australia dot org

620
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:44.159
and we'd love to hear from you and hear about

621
00:39:44.199 --> 00:39:47.400
what you're doing in your communities and work with you

622
00:39:48.440 --> 00:39:51.760
to create a healthier and happier Australia.

623
00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:54.920
Absolutely, Antanya, I'll make sure that we put all over

624
00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:57.519
the links, you know, for people to find out more

625
00:39:57.519 --> 00:40:00.719
information in the show notes for this episode. We could

626
00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:04.360
talk about this for a lot longer. I really was

627
00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:08.280
interested in just really getting this whole concept, just this

628
00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:10.599
idea out to a lot more people who perhaps weren't

629
00:40:10.599 --> 00:40:13.920
even aware that this was a possibility, that this option

630
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:16.480
was out there and available for them, because I think

631
00:40:16.519 --> 00:40:19.800
many people are really are in the dark about it.

632
00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:34.440
So thank you very much, thank you, thank you for

633
00:40:34.519 --> 00:40:36.840
tuning in. It is a fascinating topic. I think you

634
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:39.840
will agree. Mind Medicine dot org dot au is the

635
00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:42.320
website if you're after more information about that topic, and

636
00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:45.000
I'll include that link in the show notes. If you

637
00:40:45.159 --> 00:40:48.239
enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends. Please

638
00:40:48.280 --> 00:40:50.440
do take a moment to leave a rating or review

639
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641
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Or you can jump on my email list. You can

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647
00:41:13.159 --> 00:41:16.679
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648
00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:19.519
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649
00:41:19.559 --> 00:41:22.400
will not want to miss that one. We will be

650
00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:25.280
taking a little break from releasing new episodes of Crappy

651
00:41:25.320 --> 00:41:28.199
to Happy over Christmas, but I do have some amazing

652
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:30.760
guests coming to you in January, so make sure that

653
00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:33.400
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654
00:41:33.480 --> 00:41:36.280
that you don't miss it. As soon as those episodes

655
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:39.800
come out. The Crappy to Happy books make a fabulous

656
00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:42.000
Christmas gift if I do say so myself, and it

657
00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:44.519
is not too late to order a signed copy from me.

658
00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:47.239
You can order them at castdone dot com and I

659
00:41:47.239 --> 00:41:49.679
will get them straight in the express post to you.

660
00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:52.159
I can't wait to catch you in the new year.

661
00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:54.320
We will be hitting the ground running in January twenty

662
00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:57.159
twenty two. Have a safe and happy Christmas and I

663
00:41:57.199 --> 00:41:59.320
can't wait to catch you on the next episode of

664
00:41:59.320 --> 00:42:00.000
Crappy to Happy.

665
00:42:11.760 --> 00:42:12.239
Listener