July 10, 2022

The science of narcissism with W. Keith Campbell

The science of narcissism with W. Keith Campbell
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The science of narcissism with W. Keith Campbell
The science of narcissism with W. Keith Campbell
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Season 7 Psychology & Neuroscience Relationships

Keith Campbell is one of the world’s experts in narcissism, and he’s here to help us understand and interact with all the narcissistic people in our lives. In this chat the psychology professor explains the actual definition of narcissism, the difference between grandiose and vulnerable narcissism, how to spot narcissistic traits in others and what we can do to stop our kids becoming narcissistic, plus so much more.Connect with Keith:https://wkeithcampbell.com/Buy his books here: The New Science of Narcissism: https://booktopia.kh4ffx.net/narcissism-w-keithThe Narcissism Epidemic: https://booktopia.kh4ffx.net/narcissism-epidemicWhen you love a man who loves himself: https://booktopia.kh4ffx.net/when-you-love-a-man
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
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Transcript
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A listener production.

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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Cas Done.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher.

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And of course author of the Crappita Happy books.

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In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring,

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intelligent people who are experts in their field and who

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have something of value to share that will help you

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feel less crappy and more happy. A couple of months ago,

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I joined TikTok and started posting some videos on ideas

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in psychology that I thought people would find interesting that

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I find interesting to talk about. I was curious to

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see what all the fuss was about, not really sure

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what to expect. So it came as a complete shock

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to me when I posted a couple of videos on

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the topic of narcissism and they blew up.

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Within days, I had.

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Thousands, in fact hundreds of thousands of views. I gained

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fifteen thousand new followers in the space of a couple

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of weeks, and my video on grandiose narcissism has now

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been viewed almost a million times. And like I said,

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it was in the space of a few weeks. It

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became very clear to me as I tried to answer

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people's questions about narcissism and narcissists, that people are hungry

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for information on this topic, and so I knew that

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I had to get one of the world's narcissism experts

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onto the show to tell me more about it. Keith

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Campbell is a professor of psychology at the University of

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Georgia in the United States. He's written a bunch of

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books on this topic. He's been studying narcissism for a

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long time. His most recent book is called The New

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Science of Narcissism that came out in twenty twenty, and

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back in two thousand and nine he wrote a book

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called The Narcissism Epidemic. He co wrote that with Gene Twangy.

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So in our chat, Keith and I cover a lot

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of ground, including what narcissism actually is, the difference between

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grandiose and vulnerable narcissists, which is something that has really misunderstood,

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how to spot us in a friend or a loved one,

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and what you can do if you're worried your kids

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might becoming a bit narcissistic. This is a topic I

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find fascinating and I know that you will too.

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Here's Keith.

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Keith Campbell, thank you so much for joining me on

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the Craffit to Happy podcast today.

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Well, thanks for having me, Keith.

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I want to give you a little bit of background

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before we start talking about this topic of narcissism in

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the world today.

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So I am a psychologist as well. I recently joined TikTok.

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I thought I had no followers on TikTok, and I

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thought I'll just start posting some little bits of psychology

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facts just to practice and play with the app. So

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I posted this one TikTok which was let's talk about

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grandiose narcissism. This is what it looks like. This is

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a kind of typical science. I went from one hundred

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and fifty TikTok followers to fifteen thousand. That grandiose narcissism

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video had almost a million views and the comments went

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within a space of weeks, and I thought, this is astonished.

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Well thanks, that's just wild to hear. I mean, when

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I started doing research on this, people could even say

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the word. It's very interesting that it's just well it is.

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It is huge, and I do think that the word

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is banded around and people do perhaps misuse it, and

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I thought, well, if I'm going to contribute to the conversation,

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I want to be contributing with facts. When I studied psychology,

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first of all, in the early nineteen nineties, I don't

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think we even really covered this topic. So it would

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be fair to say that the research has really thanks

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largely to you, like it's really exploded in the last decade.

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Well I would. I wouldn't say just thanks to me,

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but thanks to a lot of people in the last

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twenty years. Yeah, it's absolutely exploded. And what's been interesting

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is that this, like you said, that vulnerable grandiose distinction.

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A lot of that's what was opping the field was

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theoretically people just didn't know what to talk about it.

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They were kind of stuck because the clinicians were really

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interested in this more vulnerable presentation, and everybody else with

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bad relationships and bad political leaders was interested in the

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grandiose and they kept trying to put them together and

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they couldn't do it. So I think once we sorted

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that out, then the field just took off because people

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knew what they were talking about.

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So let's start for listeners now with that distinction. So

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can you explain to us Keith, like, what is the

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definition of, for example, grandiose narcissist versus a vulnerable narcissist,

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which a lot of people have still not ever heard

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that definition.

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So I think that's a good place to start.

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Yeah, generally with narcissism, we're talking about some sort of

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self importance and maybe a sense of entitlement or I

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deserve special treatment, I deserve people to pay attention to me.

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I'm better than people, I'm superior to people. So that's

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sort of something that's consistent with narcissism, but that gets

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presented in a couple of different ways, and these are

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two very different types of people. Really. One is you

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take that and you add a lot of what we

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call extraversion or energy, charisma, excitement, charm, maybe drive or ambition,

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and what you end up with is what you think

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of your's your stereotypical hard surgeon or politician or kind

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of Hollywood actor who's maybe thinks are better than you,

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but they're also charming and driven and charismatic and kind

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of likable and you kind of don't mind them around

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if they're a fighter pilot, you know, if they're doing

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a good job. And so that's the narcissism most of

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us are familiar with. We're talking about it's kind of

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the arrogant guy we know or gal we know. The

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other form is you take that same self importance, but

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rather than being sort of assertive and aggressive, you're actually

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a little insecure. You have a little bit low self esteem.

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You're like, I'm than everybody else, but I kind of

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a little bit meek, and I'm a little bit scared.

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And when you have that combination of superiority but also

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this kind of fear about engaging with the world, you

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end up being depressed or anxious or I feel isolated

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because no one appreciates your genius, no one sees you.

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You end up with an active fantasy life. And so

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folks with this more vulnerable, sensitive form of narcissism end

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up in therapy more so they're more likely to be

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in psychotherapy for depression or things. And then people start

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to dig in and go, oh, you're kind of self

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important underneath all that depression, you know, and that's the vulnerability.

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The other way to think about it is narcissism can

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be really offensive or defensive in the sense that, hey,

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I want everyone to think I'm a big deal. I

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can run out and try to get on TV or

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get on a podcast, or get my name out there

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and get attention. And so that's sort of a very

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approach or a detension seeking way, and that's what you

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see with grandiose narcissism. Well you see with vulnerable narcissism

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is defensiveness where they're not going to say anything. But

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if you criticize somebody who's really vulnerable narcissist, they get angry,

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really reactive, kind of fly off the handle a little bit.

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So they're much more focused on defending that little sense

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of self they have, whereas the grandiose folks they're very confident.

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They just want more attention just to reinforce their confidence.

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So they're very different presentations, but deep down it's kind

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of what they share is, yeah, I'm better than you

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and I deserve special treatment.

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Yeah right, So is it possible then?

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And this came up in the questions on some of

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my videos do people swing? Because the way I had

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described it, and I think I've probably got this from

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your book, was that you will see the grandiose narcissist

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if they are attacked or confronted, they don't handle criticism

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very well, and they can fly into a rage, and

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people in relationships with often talk about that narcissistic kind

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of rage as opposed to the vulnerable narcissism who doesn't

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really have it in them for the confrontation. They're a

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little bit shaky self esteem, so they'll be more passive

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aggressive or but.

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That you get the anger. You can get this passive

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aggressive anger, but you don't get the what you'll see

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with with grandiose narcissism, you'll see the more physical attacks

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because they're confident, they're assertive, and they're willing to do that.

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With vulnerability, you don't see that as much. But what

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you're I think what you're getting at is some people

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share both. I mean, some people have a lot of

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grandiosity and vulnerability. It's not they're just different forms. But

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some people have both of these things. And really that's

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kind of the scariest combination you can have, because somebody

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is really active but also really insecure underneath, so that

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they can be tripped up or destabilized with threats.

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Yeah, right, that's that's good to know.

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That was my question about whether they kind of can

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be both or whether they swim.

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Between and the vacillation question is really interesting as well.

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So what you'll see is people, I mean people in

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general have fantasies about being grandios. This isn't a bad thing.

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I'm not like, oh my god, you know I kind

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of I wanted to be a princess or I wanted

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to be famous. Yeah, that's normal, and people have these

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these fantasies. But but what you see with vulnerability is

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a little more of these, you know, grandiose fantasies that

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kind of pop up more with grandiose narcissism. I'm sort

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of thinking through the most recent studies I can think of.

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With grandiose narcissism, you see some swing, but not as much,

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mostly because you're engaged with the world more so, you're

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just much more engaged if you're more grandios, so your

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your reality testing is more and you kind of you

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can kind of stabilize. But with vulnerability, you just have

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those grandiose fantasies and then this kind of like oh

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I'm a terrible person, and then some grandios. So you

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see more of that swinging back and forth.

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Okay, and how does a narcissism become created?

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Is this biological? Is it temperament?

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Is it a history of trauma. You know, what makes

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somebody a narcissist or is there a simple answer or

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is it a combination of fact.

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Well, it's definitely a combination of factors. There's never simple

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answers in these things. What we find with most personality is,

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I don't know, forty percent or something's heritable, maybe fifty,

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maybe thirty eight. Something somewhere around there is heritable, meaning

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it's genetic, likely coming from your parents. And so most

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of what we are is kind of wired into us

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to start with. That's the biggest piece we can detect.

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And that's just the way it is. That's a hard

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pill to swallow for most people. But once you're a

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parent and you have a few different kids and you realize,

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my goodness, my kids are so different and I try

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to treat them in the same way, and my wife

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try to treat them the same way, but they're just

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different people. Well, that's that hardwire and we have. So

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that's a big piece parenting. The way your parents treat

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you matter, and we see some differences with grandiose and

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vulnerable narcissism. With grandiose narcissism, you see the parents are

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more likely to put the kids on a pedestal to

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treat the kids like they're special. With vulnerable narcissism, you're

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more likely to see that more cold abuse of parenting

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that you see with a lot more disorders. But in

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terms of parenting, you're talking maybe ten to twenty percent

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is predicted by parenting. It's just not that much what

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you say to parents. Like parents, it's really important as

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a parent to love and support your child, but you

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just don't have that much power shifting their personality. So

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there's some that you see, but not as much as

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most people think. And the rest is what we call

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non shared environment. It's just luck. So it's the kids

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you end up hanging out with, it's the pop music

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you listen to, it's the Instagram you're following, whatever. This

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social context is kind of mixed with your general personality,

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mixed with how your parent and you blend that together

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and you end up with more or less narcissism, the

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same way you end up with any sort of personality combination.

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Yeah, I think you said something really interesting before, Keith, Like,

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you know, everybody has this fantasies.

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You know, you wanted to be a princess, and.

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I think this is really important because people will listen

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and go, oh God, look, am I a narcissist? How

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do we make the distinction between Like, narcissistic personality traits

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exist on a spectrum, Where is the line that turns

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something into a narcissistic personality disorder?

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How do we make that distinction?

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So there's a couple I think there's a couple lines.

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One First, is narcissism's normal? Now everybody's got some, like

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you're saying, it's a continuum. One question, one sort of

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test I ask ask people as well. Is your narcissism

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interfering with your ability you have relationships? So? Is your

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ego so overpowering that you can't find loving relationships with

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your family, with friends, with a romantic partner. So just

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my general question to people is if your narcissism's interfering

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with that, with that love part of your life, that

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might be an issue to consider. Like, hey, maybe this

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is an ideal, but that doesn't mean it's a clinical disorder.

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It's just that's where I sort of want people or

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suggest people maybe look for problems with narcissism. If you

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think you're a big deal, but you get along with

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people and everyone likes you and you love your family.

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It's like, great, keep thinking you're a big deal. It's fine.

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It's not going to earn anything. So what happens when

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narcissism becomes a disorder is it becomes extreme and it

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becomes inflexible. So this is what happens with personality. Like,

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my ego is so big that I can't stop it

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for a moment, even if I have to make this

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important decision. It's like, Keith, all you have to do

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is just don't be an arrogant jerk just for a minute.

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Just get the deal signed and everything's done. I'm like, Nope,

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I've got to put my ego out there because I matter.

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When your ego starts really interfering with your life, you

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can't turn it up and down. Clinically, you can be

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diagnosed is having a disorder, and this is something that

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a trained clinicians should do. It's not something you should

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do on TikTok. It's not something I do because I'm

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a research psychologist. I'm not a clinictical psychologist. I don't

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diagnose people with narcissism. But what you would look at

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is you look at certain traits. Hey, your need for admiration,

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your need to hang out with the cool kids, your

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need to take credit for all the good things and

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blame people, your envy you have for people. Those things

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are leading to severe problems, clinically significant problems in your

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life in a couple areas like your relationships, like your work,

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and if that happens, you can be diagnosed as having

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a personality disorder. But it's extreme. I mean that's an

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extreme condition. Yeah.

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I think that's a point that's really worth making, the extreme,

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the extremeness of it. Because that comment came up a

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lot like isn't this everybody?

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Isn't this?

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You know?

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Am I a narcissist? Tell me, Keith?

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Can people do people self identify as narcissists or do

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most narcissists not really have a clue that they're a narcissist?

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Yeah? Well, people who are a narcissistic kind of know it.

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I mean that's how the tests work. I mean they're

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they're just like, you know, I'm you know, I think

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I'm better looking than other people, and I wish someone

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would write my biography and people say, yeah, so it's

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not like it's a mystery. Oh my goodness, I can't

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believe it. You know, I wanted to be famous, and

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I think I'm hot, and I love having short term

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relationships and I love getting my new Rolex and my Mercedes.

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But I didn't know I had an ego, so it's

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not surprising to people. But I think there might be

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a lack of awareness of how it affects your life.

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So people can be narcissistic. They're like, yeah, I've gotten

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an ego, but they might not see it as much.

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Although in the research that we've done recently, I should

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always say that graduate students have done, not me, but

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we've looked at this and people who are narcissistic do

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see some awareness that it costs them interpersonally, that having

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that kind of ego. It might be fine at work,

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it might be fine when you're out partying socializing, but

301
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it really costs you in terms of having committed close

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interpersonal relationships. And there is awareness that people have. It's

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not that their people are totally clueless or narcissistic. They

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see a cost to it. It might be worth the

305
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cost because the ego is more important, but there they're

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not blind to a cost.

307
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Is it fair to say though that typically my experience,

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I guess and just talking to people and on social

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mad not just TikTok, but on Instagram and other places

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where and people in my life have've had relationships with narcissists.

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Is it fair say that the narcissist is usually not

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00:17:01.720 --> 00:17:04.200
the one that turns up to be assessed, but the

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problems that have that are a result of somebody's narcissism

314
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are often for the people in their lives, for their partner,

315
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for their kids, for their workmates. The narcissist isn't unless

316
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they're the vulnerable with the anxiety depression. The narcissist is

317
00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:21.279
having a pretty good time most of the time.

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Yeah, one hundred percent. Sometimes I describe it to people.

319
00:17:24.839 --> 00:17:27.480
I mean, so what just to reinforce what you're saying,

320
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is that often, you know, with disorders, you go, well,

321
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somebody they're suffering going on, that's why a disorder. And

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most of the time the person suffering is the person

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with the disorder. You know, you're depressed, You're like, I'm depressed,

324
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You're you know, you're you're paranoid. You're like, oh, I'm paranoid.

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So you're suffering. In the case of narcissism, you're not

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necessarily the one suffering. Often it's the people around you.

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It's your spouse, as your kids, there are your coworkers.

328
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They're the ones who are suffering and you're feeling pretty good.

329
00:17:58.680 --> 00:18:01.640
The only other well, there might be others, but one

330
00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:05.839
other disorder class. It's similar to this as addictions. What

331
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people can go through life with sort of addictions that

332
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they feel good, but they end up causing a lot

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of problems to the world around them. Alcohol abuse are

334
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the drug abuse. So narcissism functions that way, and that's

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really important. So somebody's like, yeah, I'm really narcissistic, My

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life's just fine. You look around and often there's just

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a trail of wreckage behind somebody. It's they've damaged relationships,

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they've damaged work relationships, and so you'll just see this trail.

339
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I always say, it's like a tornado going through. So

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no matter what somebody says is narcissistic, if you look

341
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at the history, you should see damage. If you don't

342
00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:45.319
see damage, they're probably not that bad a person.

343
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So statistically, a certain percentage of the population has a

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narcissistic personality disorder.

345
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I forget, and maybe it's five percent or something. How

346
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accurate and reliable.

347
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Is that given that the narcissists aren't showing up to

348
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be assisted, and we actually because the SAME's I'm talking

349
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to people that it's rough out there.

350
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Yeah, so when you look at the estimates, it's hard

351
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because what you need are national level surveys and it's

352
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hard to get those. The one that we relied aren't

353
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relied on for a lot of the data. When they

354
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first analyzed it, came up with an estimate of something

355
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I think it was more like six or seven percent

356
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for NPD, So those numbers were really high. Other people

357
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came back and said, well, that's people reporting the symptoms,

358
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but it's not they're not reporting actual impairment. And when

359
00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:43.079
you do that, you get something more like one or

360
00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:47.279
two percent. So I think the number I go with

361
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now is that maybe at any one point in time

362
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of the population, the rate of narcissistic personality disorder full

363
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blown clinical disorder something like one or two percent, so

364
00:19:57.960 --> 00:19:59.640
one out of one hundred and two out of one hundred,

365
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which which is less than most people would think because

366
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they're looking on the internet going my god.

367
00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:05.799
It's everybody, it's everywhere exactly, you know.

368
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So so I think the prevalence of the disorder is

369
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relatively low. I think we know what we know from

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the research that people who are narcissistic have more connections

371
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and more active on social media. So you certainly when

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you turn on your social media, what that means is

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that the constellation of personality shining back to you is

374
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more narcissistic than the one shining out because they're the

375
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one putting out the content and they're the one connecting.

376
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So that changes how we perceive the world. And also,

377
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there are a lot of people are narcissistic but aren't

378
00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:39.839
at a level where it's a clinical disorder, where they're

379
00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:42.680
just a kind of a tool, kind of a jerk,

380
00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:46.200
kind of an arrogant person. But there may be a

381
00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:49.720
little bit entertaining. They're not doing that much damage and

382
00:20:49.880 --> 00:20:52.720
people don't mind having around for a few pints or whatever,

383
00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:55.359
and so you see a lot of it, but that's

384
00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:58.720
not full clinical, it's just kind of annoying.

385
00:20:59.279 --> 00:20:59.880
Yeah, I got cha.

386
00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:04.480
So when we talk about and you know your terminology

387
00:21:04.519 --> 00:21:07.440
and I probably have a similar I probably present similarly

388
00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:10.359
when I talk about narcissism, you know, kind of a tool,

389
00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:12.799
kind of a jerk, kind of this kind of that,

390
00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.240
and then we have people saying, well, you know, can't

391
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we just try to understand them and have some compassion

392
00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:20.599
for them.

393
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:22.559
What's your response to that.

394
00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:27.000
I would like to have compassion for everybody. I don't

395
00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:31.039
have any problem having compassion with people. And I think

396
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:35.039
there's a couple challenges. One is when people say let's

397
00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:37.079
have some compassion, what they mean is I'm going to

398
00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:40.000
change somebody. I'm going to fix somebody because I'm going

399
00:21:40.039 --> 00:21:44.160
to figure out what's wrong. And what I usually say

400
00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:47.279
to that is I do think people who are narcissistic

401
00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:51.400
can change. I mean, do you talk to clinical clinical

402
00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:53.279
people who work with them all the time, and if

403
00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:57.279
somebody is very motivated on their own, they can change. However,

404
00:21:57.359 --> 00:22:01.759
you are not a clinic clinician or a pychiatrist, and

405
00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:05.000
you're not motivated, you can't motivate the person to change,

406
00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:07.599
So you have no prayer of changing somebody. So just

407
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:09.319
let it go because you're not going to do it.

408
00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:12.039
And I say that with love. The other thing is

409
00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:14.160
when people hurt us, we'd like to think that they're

410
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:16.839
going to feel bad or something, and so deep down

411
00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:19.160
they're going to it's and a lot of times, people

412
00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:22.160
that are kind of psychopathic and narcissistic, they just don't

413
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:24.440
have that many feelings and they hurt us and they

414
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:28.960
just keep going. So but it might do I have compassion? Sure?

415
00:22:29.079 --> 00:22:31.920
I mean it's it's a you live a selfish life,

416
00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:34.680
you die a selfish life, and nobody it's great to

417
00:22:34.759 --> 00:22:38.880
live selfishly diye selfishly horrendous. You die alone with no love.

418
00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:42.359
Can't imagine anything worse than that. That's what you're signing

419
00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:45.480
up for. If you want to do that, great, It's

420
00:22:45.559 --> 00:22:49.359
just it's not necessarily what I would do.

421
00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:51.000
I think you hit the nail on the head there

422
00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:53.640
where you said that that is often motivated, motivated by

423
00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:56.960
this like I can change this person, and that is

424
00:22:57.519 --> 00:22:59.960
And that was probably one of my next questions was

425
00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:01.720
do they change?

426
00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:05.160
And you know is? And I think you've answered that question.

427
00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:08.279
Yeah no, But I do want to say I think clinically,

428
00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:10.359
if somebody out there is listening, Gwen, you know I'm

429
00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:13.200
really narcissistic. I want to be a better person. I say, amen,

430
00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:16.759
go do it. There's nothing stopping you from doing it

431
00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:19.759
except yourself. Because what all the data show is the

432
00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:24.039
challenges with narcissism and change in psychotherapy is staying in therapy.

433
00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:26.079
If you can stand in therapy, it seems to be

434
00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:29.440
reasonably effective.

435
00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:34.240
I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the

436
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:36.640
benefits of positivity in your own life.

437
00:23:36.759 --> 00:23:38.000
If you are enjoying.

438
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:40.160
The show, please be sure to like and subscribe so

439
00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:42.720
that you get notified when you apps drop and head

440
00:23:42.759 --> 00:23:45.079
on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and

441
00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:56.119
leave us a rating and review. So keith it does

442
00:23:56.200 --> 00:23:58.480
turn out, And the vast majority of people who are

443
00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:01.279
out there and googling and looking up YouTube videos and

444
00:24:01.319 --> 00:24:05.279
looking at my TikTok video, whoever's you know, content around

445
00:24:05.559 --> 00:24:08.319
narcissism are the people who are on the receiving end

446
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:11.319
of the narcissistic behaviors, and so they're the ones who

447
00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:12.359
often have the questions.

448
00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:13.920
They're the ones who are seeking.

449
00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:18.119
Help and knowing what we do and understanding narcissism as

450
00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:20.880
we do. Now, what would be your advice to somebody

451
00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:25.880
who finds themselves in a relationship with a narcissist given

452
00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:27.640
what you've just said about they're not going to change

453
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:29.680
like you do. Have some good advice about how you

454
00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:31.359
can effectively manage these people.

455
00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:38.720
Yeah, So the challenge is how committed is this relationship?

456
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:42.880
If you're wired in with somebody and you're invest heavily invested,

457
00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:45.720
and you have children and you want to make this work,

458
00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:48.160
and this person isn't abusive, they're just a little bit

459
00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:51.680
of a bore, that's one thing. And maybe there's ways

460
00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:53.480
you want to stick with it, and you start with

461
00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:55.880
therapy and I have some like in the book, I

462
00:24:55.880 --> 00:24:58.160
have some ideas, but you know, there's things you do

463
00:24:58.200 --> 00:25:01.039
and try to make it work. Great if you're not

464
00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:04.279
invested in the relationship and you're going, you know what,

465
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:08.359
this person's narcissistic, but I could maybe it will work out.

466
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:11.160
If it were my own child, I would say, get

467
00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:13.640
out as fast as you can. I don't tell people

468
00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:16.480
what to do, so, but that's what I would tell

469
00:25:17.319 --> 00:25:22.960
my daughter. Yeah, because there's there's very little reason for

470
00:25:23.079 --> 00:25:27.960
someone who is very ego focused to change, just there's

471
00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:30.720
not motivation to do it. And what you're hoping in

472
00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:34.079
a relationship is as you become more close, you're going

473
00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:36.319
to become emotionally intimate. You're going to get to know

474
00:25:36.359 --> 00:25:39.200
the person, You're going to share vulnerabilities, you're going to

475
00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:42.759
become tight emotionally, and that's not going to happen with

476
00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:46.319
somebody's narcissistic. So if that's something you want in a relationship,

477
00:25:46.359 --> 00:25:48.799
you're just not going to get it. If you're shallow

478
00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:51.599
and wants somebody to go to Vegas with, have at it.

479
00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:55.599
God bless you, you know, But but generally I just

480
00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:56.720
would I would just bail.

481
00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:00.839
Do you reckon narcissists? When you just made that comment

482
00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:03.720
about Vegas? I was thinking, I wonder a narcissist drawn

483
00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:04.319
to each other?

484
00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:06.920
Do you think you see a little bit of that?

485
00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:09.440
And you know, in a lot of the research we

486
00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:11.400
did on undergrads, you see a little bit of what

487
00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:13.799
we call them awfully, that's the fancy way of seeing.

488
00:26:13.880 --> 00:26:17.240
Light goes with like. So you do see a little

489
00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:21.519
bit of a correlation in relationships with narcissism. And it

490
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:25.000
makes sense. It's people, you know, especially with grandiases, people

491
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:28.200
a little shallow, extroverted, They kind of like each other.

492
00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:32.920
I think the real problem with the narcissistic relationship happens

493
00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:36.960
when you have the one partner who's very narcissistic, very charming, charismatic,

494
00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:40.160
but not that interested in emotional intimacy. And the other

495
00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:43.160
partner who signed up for the whole package. They want

496
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:45.799
the charisma and the energy, but they also want the

497
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:49.160
emotional intimacy, and they end up getting hurt in those

498
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:53.079
relationships because there's this real mismatch of motives and what

499
00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:53.880
to expect.

500
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:56.000
And I hear that a lot too.

501
00:26:56.119 --> 00:26:59.119
Like these people who are they really end up quite

502
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:04.839
broken because they have invested years in a relationship trying

503
00:27:04.920 --> 00:27:08.200
to make it work. And what about the term gaslighting,

504
00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:11.559
So that's often used in reference to narcissists, this idea

505
00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:13.960
where they make you feel like you're the one with

506
00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:15.279
the problem, that you're crazy.

507
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:16.119
Can you talk about that?

508
00:27:17.079 --> 00:27:20.880
Yes, I can. I mean the term gaslight is it's

509
00:27:20.920 --> 00:27:22.720
a term people are using. It comes to an old

510
00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:27.279
movie where that the protagonists would change the lights and say, like,

511
00:27:27.319 --> 00:27:29.799
the lights aren't changed, but they were down, and you

512
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:32.759
go crazy. So it's a way of making somebody become

513
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:37.039
start to question their own sense or contact with reality.

514
00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:38.960
And if you can do that to somebody, if you

515
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:41.720
can effectively gaslight them or make them think they don't

516
00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:44.880
know what's real, they're very easy to manipulate. So you

517
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:48.720
can see why people who are narcissistic or psychopathic would

518
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:52.519
use a strategy like this. The challenge for me as

519
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:57.079
a researcher is there's no research on narcissism and gaslighting.

520
00:27:57.160 --> 00:28:00.359
Per se a student who kind of figured out the comtruck,

521
00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:03.640
but it just hasn't been done. We've looked at things

522
00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:06.880
like that are similar, like narcissism and game plane, like

523
00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:10.759
showing commitment, taking commitment away, and you do find that.

524
00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:13.839
So my guess is you're going to find this narcissism

525
00:28:13.880 --> 00:28:17.400
gas lighting, and it's about power and control against something

526
00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:20.079
makes you unstable. The other thing they'll do in a

527
00:28:20.119 --> 00:28:23.720
relationship is show less commitment. I'm not as interested in you,

528
00:28:23.720 --> 00:28:26.319
You're more interested in me. Well, the least interested person

529
00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:29.440
in the relationship always has the power, So if the

530
00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:32.160
narcissists can kind of pull interest from you, then you're

531
00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:35.319
always giving in and you end up losing power. So

532
00:28:35.400 --> 00:28:37.160
a lot of this is just a power game.

533
00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:40.119
Yeah, it does seem like that, and you know, there's

534
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:42.240
a lot of the terminology that flies around on the

535
00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:45.640
internet gas lighting. Another one is future faking, like promising

536
00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:47.200
what you want in the future in order to get

537
00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:50.119
what they want in the present, which is just manipulation.

538
00:28:50.599 --> 00:28:56.160
It's really Yeah. Yeah, I've heard love bombing a lot too,

539
00:28:56.279 --> 00:28:59.319
and that's another one we haven't studied, but that's basically

540
00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:02.200
being sort of of, you know, very focused on you

541
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:06.039
at the beginning of relationship and then becoming less focused

542
00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:09.599
later on. And another point you brought up it's really

543
00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:13.559
interesting is the damage you see with narcissistic relationships happens

544
00:29:13.720 --> 00:29:16.759
years after the relationship ends. And that's something that really

545
00:29:16.759 --> 00:29:19.400
struck me. You know, years ago when I started studying

546
00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:23.680
this was like, my goodness, these relationships end, but the

547
00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:26.839
person still gets damaged because they're trying to figure it out,

548
00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:30.279
like what happened? What did I do wrong? How was

549
00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:34.240
it so stupid? And it's a tricky one because I

550
00:29:34.359 --> 00:29:37.920
tell people like, you're not stupid people who are narcissistic.

551
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:41.839
I mean, these grandios narcissists are attractive. They're attractive people.

552
00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:45.319
You're not stupid. You're normal if you're attracted to somebody

553
00:29:45.400 --> 00:29:48.359
like this. You're normal to get in a relationship like this,

554
00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:51.599
and you're normal to question it. You've just got to

555
00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:53.920
let it go. You know, it just comes down to

556
00:29:53.960 --> 00:29:56.119
the old you know, you get shot with the arrow,

557
00:29:56.200 --> 00:29:58.240
you just pull it out instead. Of spending a bunch

558
00:29:58.279 --> 00:30:00.440
of time thinking who shot it? And I am what

559
00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:02.640
they did? You just see a Buddhist parable.

560
00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:04.519
Just I love that Buddhist parable.

561
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:06.119
That's very hard for people.

562
00:30:06.680 --> 00:30:09.200
I'm really glad that you made that point because I've

563
00:30:09.640 --> 00:30:12.000
said the same thing to people as well, like, you're

564
00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:16.160
not stupid, You've just you've been played. And people are

565
00:30:16.279 --> 00:30:20.680
highly skilled manipulators. And that's not on you. Because people

566
00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:22.759
do they really question themselves and what's wrong with me?

567
00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:24.680
Do I need therapy? Because why was I drawn to

568
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:27.319
this person in the first place? And they just go

569
00:30:27.880 --> 00:30:28.799
around and around.

570
00:30:29.160 --> 00:30:31.880
I fall for a narcissist all the time. I love it.

571
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:36.240
I just listen to somebody super confident, charming, charismatic. I'm like,

572
00:30:36.440 --> 00:30:39.519
just dialed in. I'm really extroverted. I'm a total idiot.

573
00:30:39.640 --> 00:30:43.039
I mean it just it happens. I mean, just don't

574
00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:44.759
hate yourself for it. Just move on.

575
00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:46.759
I think the other really good point that you make,

576
00:30:46.839 --> 00:30:49.720
Keith is that because I think that there are some

577
00:30:50.200 --> 00:30:55.720
very unlikable characters that we all pin you know, we

578
00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:57.440
see them a mile away. You know, we can talk

579
00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:00.880
about Donald Trump for example, and oh no, and they're

580
00:31:01.519 --> 00:31:06.440
horrible and they're repugnant and they're they're so unlikable. But

581
00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:11.799
most grandiose narcissists are actually very likable, right. I think

582
00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:15.119
that people are they expect these people to be awful

583
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:16.160
and repulsive.

584
00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:17.839
And they're charming and they're charismatic.

585
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:21.440
No, and the and the truth is there's always half

586
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:24.839
the people love you, meaning with every you know, Donald

587
00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:26.559
Trump has half the people love him.

588
00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:27.000
He does.

589
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:29.720
There's other leaders who have have to do. People have

590
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:32.079
the people hate and say these are the most repulsive

591
00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:34.000
people on earth, and the other half love them. That

592
00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:39.119
is true of almost all these narcissistic leaders. They're polarizing figures,

593
00:31:38.920 --> 00:31:41.519
that's true. And half the people say, this person is

594
00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:44.359
my fighter, and so what if they got an ego,

595
00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:47.680
there are my team, and the other people like, this

596
00:31:47.720 --> 00:31:52.079
person is a horrible egomaniac freak. And it's just the

597
00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:56.559
nature of political leadership that we just get sucked into

598
00:31:56.599 --> 00:31:59.039
these people over and over and over and the other

599
00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:01.519
it's like you're in a world bad relationship and everyone

600
00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:04.160
sees it and you're like, but it's love. You know.

601
00:32:04.279 --> 00:32:07.319
It's the same kind of process where you people who

602
00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:09.799
aren't in the forest field to just go we see

603
00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:11.960
with cult leaders, people aren't in the forest field like

604
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:14.960
you're insane, but people in the forest field of the

605
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:18.799
leader just they just get real dumb again. But we've

606
00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:22.359
all done it, we've all fallen, all done it, good leaders.

607
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:23.279
We've all done it.

608
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:25.079
But the other, I mean, the other thing that I

609
00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:27.640
hear a lot is like once full for a narcissist.

610
00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:31.519
Once and they spot those character traits.

611
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:34.480
A mile away. Now I don't know almost a bit.

612
00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:38.200
They become overly cautious, and I guess that's that potentially

613
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:40.799
is a problem too, that you start spotting everybody, becoming

614
00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:43.759
so vigilant and so wary that you don't trust anybody

615
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:46.799
again because you don't trust people.

616
00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:49.759
Yeah, well, I think it's totally natural that if you

617
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:52.640
have somebody who you love abuse your trust, that you

618
00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:57.000
become much more skeptical of people and you start looking

619
00:32:57.039 --> 00:32:59.880
for for threats. And if you start looking for threats,

620
00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:05.160
obviously going to find threats. So it's a challenge because

621
00:33:05.319 --> 00:33:10.440
every time, especially in romantic relationships and our shared culture,

622
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:13.640
they're not we don't have set relationships, they're not to

623
00:33:13.720 --> 00:33:17.720
arrange marriages. They're always a risk. I mean, there's always

624
00:33:17.799 --> 00:33:21.000
a risk. So that's just you're either in that you're

625
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:24.680
either in the game getting smashed around trying to do it,

626
00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:27.160
or you're not in the game. But it's always going

627
00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:29.240
to be a risk, you know, I always but I

628
00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:32.160
always say, look at somebody's history, look at their history.

629
00:33:32.920 --> 00:33:34.480
Good advice, Keith.

630
00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:38.599
I know that you've done some research and you put

631
00:33:38.599 --> 00:33:42.279
a book out with Gene twenty is it Jeane.

632
00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:43.839
Twein, Yeah, twy.

633
00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:47.319
Twenty, right, I've saw her speak actually when around the

634
00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:49.200
time that the book came out, and so it was

635
00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:54.799
all about the narcissist narcissism epidemic, and it my recollection

636
00:33:54.920 --> 00:33:58.799
is that it really focused on the rise of narcissism

637
00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:02.039
in our society and relationship to social media.

638
00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:03.359
Can you talk a little bit.

639
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:06.880
About that, Well, I would say it wasn't it wasn't

640
00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:11.440
all social media really because in nine yeah, a lot

641
00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:15.119
of the focus was not easy money, believe it or not.

642
00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:20.280
So we wrote that book looking at the cultural changes

643
00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:25.280
going from the you know, fifties, sixties, eighties into right

644
00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:28.960
into the Great Financial Crisis. So when we wrote it,

645
00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:32.800
it was sort of the peak of the Paris Hilton selfie.

646
00:34:33.320 --> 00:34:38.639
But material is kind of Instagram culture. That's right where

647
00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:42.639
we were hitting. And we started seeing these correlations with

648
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:48.639
social media and narcissism. And you know, I thought, at

649
00:34:48.679 --> 00:34:51.039
the time, or at least I think I thought that

650
00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:54.840
that social media was really elevating narcissism socially. That's what

651
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:59.239
was going on. Since that we had the Great Financial Crisis,

652
00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:01.760
which didn't hit Australia as bad as the US, but

653
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:07.000
just wiped us out, and we saw narcissism start to shift.

654
00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:11.719
We saw people become less sort of overtly materialistic and

655
00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:16.360
much more judgmental about everybody else. We saw people become

656
00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:21.440
less grandiose and maybe more vulnerable, but equally angry. So

657
00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:23.519
it looked to me it looks like in the data

658
00:35:23.559 --> 00:35:26.440
that narcissism at least dropped from that peak, and it

659
00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:29.800
sort of dropped down. In twenty thirteen, we started seeing

660
00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:34.039
this growth of depression, especially in young girls, which seemed

661
00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:36.880
like maybe linked to social media at least in part

662
00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:40.280
because of the social comparison process and the fear missing

663
00:35:40.320 --> 00:35:42.920
out and the mean girls and those kind of things.

664
00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:47.400
So I don't think there's a neat one to one.

665
00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:50.480
You know, social media made everybody narcissistic. I think it

666
00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:53.760
had these effects that changed over time. And I also

667
00:35:53.800 --> 00:35:56.320
think it depends on social media because we can run

668
00:35:56.360 --> 00:35:58.599
into how people started running from one to the other.

669
00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:01.400
So there we are. I think we've got a lot

670
00:36:01.400 --> 00:36:05.000
of narcissism, but I think the normal, the general person

671
00:36:05.079 --> 00:36:07.159
you meet down the street at the corner store, is

672
00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:10.800
at pretty decent human being. But we're surrounded by in

673
00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:14.639
a society where you can broadcast yourself and brand yourself

674
00:36:14.679 --> 00:36:17.440
and become anything you want. And we've also broken down

675
00:36:17.480 --> 00:36:20.840
a lot of the social norms become very individualistic and atomized,

676
00:36:21.199 --> 00:36:23.840
and so we see this narcissism kind of taken over

677
00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:27.119
everything like a little bit of a plague. And there

678
00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:27.599
you have it.

679
00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:29.719
I've got a question, Keith.

680
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:31.840
For parents, something comes up a lot is how do

681
00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:34.639
I stop my child from becoming a total narcissis We

682
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:37.079
see our kids staring at their phones.

683
00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:39.159
And posting on social media and posting the selfies.

684
00:36:38.840 --> 00:36:41.360
And everybody's like, I don't want but how do I

685
00:36:41.400 --> 00:36:43.800
stop my kid from becoming that narcissistic jerk?

686
00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:47.519
Yeah, and most of your kids aren't, so don't worry

687
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:51.119
about it. But my parents have asked me this so much.

688
00:36:51.159 --> 00:36:54.159
They up I've come up with advice which is spelled

689
00:36:54.199 --> 00:36:57.199
CPR so you can remember it. But I think this

690
00:36:57.280 --> 00:37:01.559
is actually reasonable advice because the thing to do is, like,

691
00:37:02.199 --> 00:37:03.760
you know, you have a young kid that's like dad

692
00:37:03.800 --> 00:37:05.639
on the best. You're like, no, you're not, You're a

693
00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:08.119
loser like the rest of his kid. You know, kids,

694
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:11.280
it's normal for kids to be sort of full of themselves.

695
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:15.000
It's part of a development. But what I suggest is

696
00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:19.519
against CPR. First is focus on compassion. Make sure that

697
00:37:19.599 --> 00:37:23.639
your kids are reinforced your kids being compassionate, loving, caring.

698
00:37:23.800 --> 00:37:27.079
And if you're a compassionate, truly compassionate person, you can't

699
00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:30.559
be that narcissistic. It just won't do that much damage.

700
00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:33.239
The best thing to do as a parent, too, is

701
00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:37.440
demonstrate practice what you preach, so your kids learn from

702
00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:40.159
you as a model. Don't just try to tell them

703
00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:43.360
what to do and be a jerk yourself. The second thing,

704
00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:46.960
and this is what most people don't think about, is

705
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:52.000
reinforcing passion. So what you can do is you can

706
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:55.760
engage in something you absolutely love. You can get a

707
00:37:55.760 --> 00:37:59.159
lot of self esteem and a sense of efficacy and

708
00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:02.159
self cast confidence from doing this thing, and you can

709
00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:05.000
draw people to you and you can do it out

710
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:08.840
of passion. So you know, with an Australian audience, I

711
00:38:08.840 --> 00:38:11.800
think of surfing, but you know, surfing you can do

712
00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:14.320
out of passion. You feel love, You get a huge

713
00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:21.039
amount of self confidence from surfing, and eventually you will

714
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:23.119
draw people to you and you can build a really

715
00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:27.239
very healthy ego without becoming an egomaniac. Because's not about

716
00:38:27.239 --> 00:38:29.199
being better and somebody. It's just loving what you do.

717
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:34.119
So focus on passionate activities and then finally a sense

718
00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:38.599
of responsibility. That's the r piece. It's just taking responsibility

719
00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:41.159
for when you mess up. Most people are a narcissistic

720
00:38:41.320 --> 00:38:44.280
like to take responsibility for good things. But when you

721
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:46.599
learn to say, hey I screwed up and I'm going

722
00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:49.519
to make it right, and just practice that over and over.

723
00:38:50.119 --> 00:38:51.800
First of all, it gives you a great sense of

724
00:38:51.880 --> 00:38:54.599
power because you're like, yeah, I can fail and get

725
00:38:54.679 --> 00:38:56.719
up and keep going. It's okay. So it's really a

726
00:38:56.760 --> 00:38:59.960
powerful thing to learn. But also you don't become air

727
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:03.159
again because you're like, yeah, I fail sometimes that's okay,

728
00:39:03.239 --> 00:39:08.400
who does it? You know? So again, compassion, passion, responsibility,

729
00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:11.440
you can focus on those things. Your kids can still

730
00:39:11.480 --> 00:39:14.239
think they're wonderful and smart and beautiful and all those

731
00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:17.000
great things, but it's not going to get out of

732
00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:21.360
hand and turn into some sort of ego maniacal or

733
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:23.079
junior narcissist.

734
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:25.519
I think that's really great advice.

735
00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:30.840
When we talk about narcissism, sometimes what comes up is

736
00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:35.199
explain to me, Like you refer to narcissism and sociopathy

737
00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:38.920
a couple of times together in our conversation. What is

738
00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:43.119
the distinction between narcissism, like a narcist and a sociopath.

739
00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:48.000
Yeah, I actually said psychopathy, which just sorry, confused thing. No,

740
00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:51.960
just to confuse it even more because people will say sociopaths,

741
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:59.960
psychopath you know, narcissists. So there's a group of trade

742
00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:04.280
and what they share is antagonism, which is sort of

743
00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:07.360
core of like I'm mean, I'm a little bit mean,

744
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:09.760
I'm a little bit callous, I'm a little bit sense

745
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:13.039
I'm a little bit better than you, and so that

746
00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:15.519
that sense of antagonism. Sometimes we talk about like the

747
00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:19.199
dark triad. Well when they say dark, it really means antagonistic,

748
00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:23.840
and so traits that share that are things like narcissism,

749
00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:28.960
which is what we've been talking about psychopathy, which looks

750
00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:32.280
like narcissism. But psychopathy is not so much about hey,

751
00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:34.519
I need the attention, I need everyone to see how

752
00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:37.679
cool I'm doing. It's more about the manipulativeness and power

753
00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:41.159
and control. It's not so much about you know, looking

754
00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:44.360
good doing it. It's not being an entertainer. It's about

755
00:40:44.440 --> 00:40:49.519
being a predator. But they're related. Sociopathy is a term

756
00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:52.480
that comes out of sociology, but it's very similar to

757
00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:57.199
sort of psychopathy. Basically being a bad person, similar to

758
00:40:57.280 --> 00:41:01.400
antisocial personality, and what that share is the same sort

759
00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:05.880
of antagonism, but also some impulsivity. So people are more

760
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:08.599
anti social tend to be like they're like impulsive, so

761
00:41:08.679 --> 00:41:12.000
they like steal stuff, they do bad things. People in

762
00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:16.280
narcissistic aren't necessarily impulsive. They'll get in trouble, but it

763
00:41:16.280 --> 00:41:18.679
will be over a long period of time. They're not

764
00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:22.599
doing you know, little petty crimes necessarily. So it's there's

765
00:41:22.599 --> 00:41:28.079
a whole there's a whole spectrum of traits we talk about.

766
00:41:28.119 --> 00:41:33.199
They'd all have this core of antagonism, but probably the

767
00:41:33.320 --> 00:41:36.159
two biggest that people talk about a narcissism, which has

768
00:41:36.199 --> 00:41:38.679
to do with the attention seeking and psychopathy, which more

769
00:41:38.719 --> 00:41:41.960
has to do with control and manipulation. But again, their

770
00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:44.079
cousin traits similar.

771
00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:49.039
Did they both share the Does that antagonism piece creates

772
00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:50.239
that lack of empathy.

773
00:41:50.840 --> 00:41:54.039
Yeah, that's kind of the core. That's where that lack

774
00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:57.840
of empathy sits, right in that core of antagonisms. I'm

775
00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:01.800
better than you, I'm callous about your feelings. I'm not

776
00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:06.199
really empathetic. The challenge with people who are narcissistic is, yeah,

777
00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:08.920
I can understand your feelings. It's not like I can't

778
00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:11.599
feel anything or I can't empathize, Like, yeah, I know

779
00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:14.000
how you're feeling. That's how come I can manipulate you.

780
00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:16.880
So it's a certain kind of lack of empathy. It's

781
00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:20.440
more a lack of emotional empathy rather than cognitive empathy,

782
00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:26.000
manipulativeness and a sense of entitlement. I deserve special treatment,

783
00:42:26.119 --> 00:42:28.280
I deserve more things. That life should be better for

784
00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:30.559
me than it should be for most people. And that's

785
00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:32.679
something you see with narcisism man tychopathy.

786
00:42:33.239 --> 00:42:36.400
Yeah, and my very last question, Keith, is and this

787
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:39.400
goes back to like when I was studying psychology and

788
00:42:39.400 --> 00:42:42.079
I did my undergraduate degree. Like I said, early nineties,

789
00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:43.960
I had a big long breaker, went back and did

790
00:42:43.960 --> 00:42:47.159
clinical like more like two thousands, and in that time

791
00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:48.880
they seemed to be the shift where when I first

792
00:42:49.039 --> 00:42:52.280
learned about narcissism, at whatever point that was, it was

793
00:42:53.239 --> 00:42:57.719
narcissism is all just a mask for insecurity. It's like

794
00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:00.599
these people who are deeply insecure and they present this

795
00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:03.880
image of being so overly confident in this entitlement because

796
00:43:03.920 --> 00:43:05.519
they're deep down they're really insecure.

797
00:43:05.800 --> 00:43:08.679
And then they said, no, that's actually not right.

798
00:43:09.320 --> 00:43:12.840
Some of these people who are narcissistic, they genuinely think

799
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:16.119
they're better than you. There is no mask for insecurity here,

800
00:43:16.280 --> 00:43:19.440
like they really genuinely have that sense of entitlement.

801
00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:21.239
Are both true?

802
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:24.920
Is it that one is more grandiose, one's more vulnerable?

803
00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:27.280
Like how do you what's the answer to that question?

804
00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:31.039
Yeah, so that's your timing is right. And when I

805
00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:33.920
started doing this, we were looking at sometimes we call

806
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:37.119
this the mask model. Sometimes I'd call this the Tutsi

807
00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:39.920
pop model, because we have this tutsipop and you, I

808
00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:42.559
don't know if you have them down there. It's like

809
00:43:42.840 --> 00:43:47.159
it's basically like it's basically a lollipop that's sort of

810
00:43:47.239 --> 00:43:49.639
soft on the inside with the tutil and then hard

811
00:43:49.719 --> 00:43:52.760
candy shell. So sometimes you sort of sort of like

812
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:55.519
card on the outside, soft on the inside. Sometimes we

813
00:43:55.599 --> 00:43:58.280
call it the donut model, so it's sort of grandiose

814
00:43:58.280 --> 00:44:00.920
in the outside with the hole in the middle. And

815
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:05.000
so we've looked at that. We've looked for that in

816
00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:08.880
different ways. We've tried to look at people as like implicit, like, well,

817
00:44:08.920 --> 00:44:11.679
deep down quickly, how quickly do you think good things

818
00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:15.880
are associated with you? We've asked people, do you feel

819
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:18.320
like you're wearing a mask or do you not feel

820
00:44:18.360 --> 00:44:21.519
like you're wearing a mask? That. We've tried other sort

821
00:44:21.519 --> 00:44:25.320
of ways of getting at that, and you don't really

822
00:44:25.480 --> 00:44:30.320
find that. What you seem to see is, like you said,

823
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:34.119
these grandiose folks, maybe they're a seven and they think

824
00:44:34.159 --> 00:44:37.440
they're a nine, so they're inflating who they are, but

825
00:44:37.519 --> 00:44:41.800
they're certainly deep down not a three. You know, and

826
00:44:41.960 --> 00:44:44.440
say Donald Trump doesn't look in the mirror and go, God,

827
00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:47.760
you are the most lowsome three person in the world.

828
00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:51.199
He's like, you're a freaking winner, and he's maybe I

829
00:44:51.239 --> 00:44:53.679
got to pump myself up from a nine to a ten.

830
00:44:54.840 --> 00:44:58.480
The vulnerable folks famerly have sort of low self esteem.

831
00:44:58.480 --> 00:45:00.800
But it's true on the outside too. It's not like

832
00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:04.079
they're acting confident and you wouldn't know they're a little

833
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:08.519
bit insecure too. So the model, I think what happened

834
00:45:08.679 --> 00:45:11.920
was people said, well, there's this vulnerable narsism, this grandiose narcissism.

835
00:45:11.960 --> 00:45:14.000
How do we make this so it's all one model. Well,

836
00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:17.000
maybe the grandiose people are just grandiose on top of

837
00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:20.840
a vulnerable core, and the energy of the grandiosity is

838
00:45:20.920 --> 00:45:25.599
actually the vulnerability. I mean, maybe that happens sometimes. I

839
00:45:25.599 --> 00:45:28.000
mean you do see people that are kind of weak

840
00:45:28.119 --> 00:45:30.280
that go out there and you know, I'm going to

841
00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:35.440
really push myself to be confident. But I don't think

842
00:45:35.480 --> 00:45:38.519
that is the basic structure of narcissism. I think it's

843
00:45:38.679 --> 00:45:39.760
much simpler than that.

844
00:45:40.440 --> 00:45:43.960
Keith, this has been fascinating for me. I so appreciate

845
00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:46.840
your time and your generosity. Thanks for being on the

846
00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:47.960
Crepit A happy podcast.

847
00:45:48.159 --> 00:45:52.119
Oh my pleasure, and you got me fired up even

848
00:45:52.199 --> 00:45:54.440
this late at night. It was fun to talk about narcissism.

849
00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:55.000
So thanks.

850
00:45:56.840 --> 00:46:00.760
That's it is such a topic.

851
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:04.960
If you have any questions, about naism or narcissist Please do.

852
00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:05.559
Send them in.

853
00:46:05.679 --> 00:46:07.480
I will do my best to answer what I can

854
00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:09.559
over on TikTok, or we may be able to get

855
00:46:09.639 --> 00:46:12.320
Keith to come back for a part two if you're

856
00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:15.000
interested in Keith's books. The first one he wrote was

857
00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:17.039
When You Love a Man who Loves Himself? How to

858
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:19.119
deal with the one my relationship back in two thousand

859
00:46:19.159 --> 00:46:21.519
and five. Like I said, in two thousand and nine,

860
00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:24.719
he co wrote The Narcissism Epidemic, Living in the Age

861
00:46:24.760 --> 00:46:27.800
of Entitlement, and his most recent book, The New Science

862
00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:31.760
of Narism, Understanding one of the greatest psychological challenges of

863
00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:33.840
our time and What you Can Do about It. That

864
00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:36.880
one came out in September twenty twenty. Or put links

865
00:46:36.920 --> 00:46:38.760
to all of those books in the show notes.

866
00:46:39.239 --> 00:46:39.639
Now.

867
00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:42.000
You may have heard, if you follow me on social

868
00:46:42.079 --> 00:46:44.400
media or if you are on my email list, that

869
00:46:44.599 --> 00:46:47.760
I am about to pack up and relocate to London

870
00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:50.679
in the UK. My family and I are heading over

871
00:46:50.719 --> 00:46:52.639
there to live for the next few years. So I'll

872
00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:55.599
be taking a little break from recording new episodes of

873
00:46:55.599 --> 00:46:58.480
Crappy to Happy just for a little while. There is

874
00:46:58.519 --> 00:47:00.719
an enormous back catalog for you to go through that

875
00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:03.480
will fill your time until I come back. Please do

876
00:47:03.599 --> 00:47:05.519
hit the subscribe button so that you are the first

877
00:47:05.559 --> 00:47:08.239
to know when new episodes are released. Because there will

878
00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:11.079
be brand new episodes. The Crappy to Happy podcast will

879
00:47:11.079 --> 00:47:14.239
continue bigger and better from London in the UK. I

880
00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:17.000
promise you it will just be a short break until then.

881
00:47:17.079 --> 00:47:19.679
Thank you so much for listening. If you like the podcast,

882
00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:22.280
please share with your friends, tell them about it, leave

883
00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:25.320
us a rating and review, and I cannot wait to

884
00:47:25.400 --> 00:47:28.960
catch you in the next episode of Crappy to Happy.

885
00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:33.880
Listener