June 26, 2023

Tiny traumas with Dr Meg Arroll

Tiny traumas with Dr Meg Arroll
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Tiny traumas with Dr Meg Arroll
Tiny traumas with Dr Meg Arroll
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Season 9 Psychology & Neuroscience Personal Growth & Healing

Not all of us have experienced huge childhood trauma. We’ve not been neglected, or physically, emotionally, or sexually abused in our formative years, and even today, there may not be anything inherently wrong with our life. You likely have a roof over your heads, food in your belly, an incoming coming in; for which you feel like you should be grateful for... Yet there’s still a sense of not being entirely happy, feeling empty or anxious in some ways, and not feeling enough.If this is you, and even if it’s not, you are going to love today’s guest, Dr Meg Arroll. Meg is a Chartered psychologist in the UK, scientist and author of Tiny Traumas and in this episode they explore: 

  • what is the difference between 'big T' and 'little T' trauma?
  • examples of what a 'Tiny T' trauma can look like
  • the cumulative effects of 'Tiny T' trauma and how they impact health outcomes
  • the Triple A model and how it can help us with emotional eating


If you loved this episode, go back into the back catalogue to listen to Cass chat with Sarah Woodhouse here.
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
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Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

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Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
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Transcript
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A listener production.

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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Cas Done.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In

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this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

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people who are experts in their field and who have

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something of value to share that will help you feel

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less crappy and more happy. Not all of us have

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experienced huge childhood trauma. We've not been neglected or physically

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or emotionally or sexually abused in our formative years, and

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even today, there may not be anything inherently wrong with

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your life. You have a roof over your head, you've

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got an income, a functioning relationship, and we know we

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should be grateful for those things. Yet there's still a

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sense of not being entirely happy, maybe feeling empty and

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anxious in some ways. And if this is you, or

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even if it's not you, you are going to love

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Today's guest doctor Meg Arrol. Meg is a chartered psychologist

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here in the UK. She's a scientist and the author

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of Tiny Traumas and I am so excited to share

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this conversation with you. On the Crappy to Happy Podcast.

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Doctor Meg, thank you so much for joining me on

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the Crappy to Happy Podcast.

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Oh, thank you so much, Cas. I'm so excited to

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be here. And I just love the title of your podcast.

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It's amazing, it's pretty catchy. It's pretty catchy, covers it all.

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Everybody knows straight away we're all about So Meg, I

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was really interested to see that you have written a

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book called Tiny Trauma. So we've talked about trauma quite

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a bit on this show. It's something that I'm really

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interested in. It's something that touches us all, and I've

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been really focused on where I can trying to expand

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kind of people's definition, widen the scope of what we

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think trauma really is. And so I was really curious

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to see that you've written a book called Tiny Traumas.

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So can you please share with the audience how do

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you define tiny traumas?

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Yeah, so, I think we were just so much on

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the same page about that, about having maybe a more

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nuanced conversation about trauma and mental health overall. So I'll

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give you a little bit of a backstory and origin

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story as it were for the book. So years and

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years ago more years than I to remember, I was

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teaching a module called the Psychology of Physical Illness, and

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in each week we chose a specific condition and it

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was a third year elective, so the students had chosen

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to do this module. We had very, very, very engaged,

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engaged students and they were always really interested in these

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particular topics. So I spent a great deal of time

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researching for my lectures, and I came across a study

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on the topic of ibsitualvale syndrome and it really changed

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my perspective around the whole topic of trauma. So within

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this study, the researchers they looked at groups of people

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who had experienced big T trauma, so capital T trauma,

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those really significant events in some people's lives that we

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now have a major impact both psychologically and physically. And

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they're things like living through a war and natural disaster,

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perhaps losing your primary caregiver early in life, a violent attack,

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these things that most of us understand these days, that

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we know that these are traumatic events, and I think

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that that's wonderful because actually, you know, the general public

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and we didn't really understand that before and we do now.

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We do know how significant that can be from individual

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and groups. But the researchers looked at these big T

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traumas but also a group of people that had experienced

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little T trauma or lower case team we're thinking about

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the word trauma, and they compared them in terms of

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health outcomes. So they were specifically looking at tummy symptoms

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for this IBS population, but also psychological symptoms and quality

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of life, these sorts of things, and what blew my mind.

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So as a psychologist and researcher, you have kind of

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that sort of informal hypothesis in your mind, and my

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prediction was probably going to be like, both types of

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trauma will have an impact. But what really made me

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pause was that for this study, those people that experienced

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this little tea lowercase T trauma actually had worse outcomes

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than those people who had big TA acute traumas. And

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that really surprised me. It really surprised me, and so

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that was always in the back of my mind and

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I thought, that's notable, that's interesting, and actually no one's

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really talking about that. So later on in my career

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in my work, I began to see people my own

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practice who would come to me and they would actually say, look,

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I haven't been through anything that bad. I haven't been

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through a major trauma. I don't know why I'm feeling

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just not okay. And I started to recognize some patterns

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in terms of things that would come up within our work.

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They would often be this low grade, consistent, cumulative type

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trauma that would build up over time and really lead

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people to a range of presentations that I would see.

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So things like high function anxiety, low grade depression, or

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even just feeling numb all the time, emotional eating, imposta syndrome,

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problems with sleep, just a huge range of themes, but

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of which if you were to go to say your

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GP or primary care physician, you probably wouldn't meet the

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criteria for a psychological condition. You probably wouldn't meet the

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criteria for major depressive disorder or generalized anxiety disorder. But

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you're still really not thriving or flourishing in life at all.

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So there's this big gray area. Cass. It was like,

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this is a great area, and as professionals, we need

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to start to take note of what's going on in

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people's lives.

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I am so on the same page. I was having

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a conversation just a side note so I have been

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doing some corporate kind of well being work with a

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company over in Amsterdam. I've been doing some executive coaching.

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I have a background as a coaching psychologist as well

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as then being a clinical psychologist, and there's always this

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distinction between what coaching is and what therapy is. And

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coaching is taking these people who are well and functioning

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and thriving and kind of you know, helping them to

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achieve goals and to move into being the most flourishing

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kind of selves. And somebody said to me just this week,

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what we're looking for here is like coaching, not therapy,

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And I said, well, I have to be honest in

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my experience, especially as a private practicing psychologist, you know,

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not in a public mental health system where you're dealing

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with really serious mental health conditions. I oftentimes struggle to

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draw the distinction. Like a lot of people who are

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showing like what you're saying, you're struggling. People come to

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therapy they know something's wrong, but they're not meeting the

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criteria for significant mental health issues. And equally, the people

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that come for coaching are often in that same sort

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of spot, like it's that languishing isn't it. It's like

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that kind of just that just a little south of

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kind of moderate no mental health definitely.

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And I'm a chart of coaching psychologists as well, and

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there is trauma informs coaching too, So again we are

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broading in our scope many of these different subdisciplines in psychology,

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and there are so many overlaps, aren't there. It's it's

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important to make distinctions, but to realize that, you know,

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we really people are human beings in a complex, aren't

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they exactly? But in terms of thinking about mental health

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on a spectrum is so incredibly important. So if you think, okay,

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so if somebody may be languishing, that is a different

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end of the spectrum to florishing, but it's not quite

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bad enough, as they say, to to meet the diagnosis

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of depressive disorder. But then even there's something between florishing

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and languishing where people can just be coasting and so

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still able to meet all the requirements in their lives.

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They're you know, probably doing quite well at work, taking

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care of their families and loved ones, and maybe even

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engaging in some hobbies, but actually they feel like they're coasting,

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that they're not really living their own lives. And this

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is where tiny tea tiny traumas come in because in

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my work, if we can identify some of these things

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that happen in all of our lives that actually cause

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us just to be knocked off course a little bit

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and start connecting the dots, being able to have that

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awareness first of all, that these low grade traumas exist,

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they do affect us, and that we can find out

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really what our constellation of tiny tea traumas and often

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the life events mixed up in that and they interact

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together and they can really compound each other too. To

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have so many of us walking around on autopilot really

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or experiencing I see this high function anxiety so much

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on a day to day basis. People are feeling anxious

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all the time. But because you'll know, to meet the

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criteria of these sort of mental health conditions, one of

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the main criteria is that you're not able to achieve

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your activity of daily living. All of my clients do.

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They all do so, but it is effort. For it

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is like walking through molasses and not the nice sweet

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carrying the really sludgy, sticky kind. And that's just no

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way to live.

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No, So Meg what are the kinds of experiences you're

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referring to when you talk about these constellations, like all

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of these little tiny tea traumas, these kind of emotional injuries,

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Like can you share kind of examples of what those

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things are that we're talking about.

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Yes, absolutely, And again the difficulty sometimes that we have

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is that all these things are individual to us. So

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a point I really want to make in general about trauma.

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It is not the event per se, it's how it

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impacts us, how it impacts the individual. So something that

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has happened in your life may impact you very keenly,

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but actually it may not particularly affect another person at all.

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And that's the same for the spectrum of trauma as well.

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So to bear in mind that some things that really

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do not people of course in their life. It won't

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be the same for everybody, but these tiny tea traumas,

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there are some really interesting categories. So things like microaggressions,

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things like toxic positivity, things that really make us feel undermined.

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Often things that make us feel a little bit humiliated,

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because in an evolutionary sense, we want to be part

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of our groups, and if we have the fear that

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we're going to be ejected from our group. That is

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actually that triggers that stress response. So moral injury was

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one thing that came a lot in the pandemic, and

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not just for nurses and doctors, but for many of

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us who are sitting on the sidelines so basically couldn't

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help other people. That was incredibly hard for people. And again,

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it probably isn't just one of these experiences. It is

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when they build up over time and often when they're constant.

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So if someone is perhaps working in a workplace where

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there is quite a lot of microaggressions, where people have

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been undermined quite a lot, then we do know from

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some really amazing research that it does have a profound

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impact in terms of health outcomes. So I'll give you

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an example actually of something that really really stuck with me.

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So I had a client. She was very, very high functioning,

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she's very sort of inverted commas, successful in her work,

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and also amazingly kind and compassionate person, and she was

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on the verge of burnout. She was burning herself out. Again.

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She said, look, nothing really that bad happened to me.

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You know, I haven't been through an abusive experience. You know,

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I have a really good relationship. All my life is

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really good. It on paper. And so we kind of

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explored some things and one thing she said that came

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up when I asked my tiny tea question. So I

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posed this question to my clients. Can you tell me

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an event or experience that has occurred in your life

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that has affected you in some way affected your behavior

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or the way you view the world, of how you

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think about yourself. But you thought wasn't quite important enough

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to mention, and that's the important thing. And she came

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back and she said, well, you know, when I was

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a kid, if if I had a bad report card,

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my mom she would pin it up on the wall

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and they stayed there from my whole childhood for years.

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So every morning I would get up and I would

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see these f's or even d's. And but Meg, that's

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not trauma, Like that wasn't that bad. I wasn't in

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an you know, I wasn't in a really difficult sort

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of environment like living through a ward. It's not that bad.

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And we took a pause. We took a pause, and

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we reflected on that, and again, imagine, imagine how that

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would impact your sense of self worth if growing up

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what you saw every day was something that was telling

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you weren't good enough. So many people have these sorts

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of experiences. And it doesn't have to be based on

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childhood either. These things can happen later in life. They

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can happen all the way through life. And one point

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in my book that I want to make really clear

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is that because many people have said.

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Well, how do we avoid this?

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How do we avoid tiny traumas? And it's not so

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much about avoiding it, because you can't cast you can't

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avoid difficulties in life. It is about having the awareness

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these things happen, that they are important, and what we

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can use these experiences to build up our psychological news system.

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I call it build up that psychological resilience of flexibility,

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so that later in life, when difficult things happen again,

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because they inevitably will, we will have the tools. We

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will have the coping mechanisms, we will have our psychological

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toolkit to be able to overcome those difficulties.

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Yeah, so you hit on a couple of points there.

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One was the idea of whether these things kind of

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occur in our early life when we're most susceptible to

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some of those You know that when we're forming our

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sense of self versus things that happen later. I guess

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I'm guessing that what you're kind of saying is that

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when we talk about how much of an impact these

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things have on us, than one of the factors that

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might make you more vulnerable is if you have had

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more of those experiences in childhood. Would you say, as

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opposed to somebody who had a really happy, healthy, emotionally

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supportive parents, would they potentially have more resilience I guess

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like when they dealing with some of these issues later.

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Possibly. But I think the difficulty with going down that

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pattern of thought is when, and I see this so

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much in my practice, is often people say I had

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a really loving childhood, my parents were amazing. It wasn't that.

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And again, the perspective of the individual is so important,

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But you can have difficult things happen later in life

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that really do cause a level of psychological unease. And

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so sometimes in psychology I feel like we focus a

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little bit too much on childhood. And if we're thinking

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about the spectrum of mental health and mental sort of

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disease as it were, unease, then what happens is people

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dismiss what can occur later in life and really impact

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us now of course for individuals, and in terms of

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tiny tea trauma, even if we did have very loving parents,

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there are studies that show if there's a misattunement, if

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we're not attuned with our parents, that can have an impact.

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And again because as you say, early life is so

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important in terms of feeling that sense of safety and

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security and being able to go out in the world

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and having that sense that everything is going to be okay.

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So there are some studies that look at parents' personalities

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as opposed to children's personalities, and when they're not really aligned,

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that can be difficult. So perhaps you have parents that

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are really really extroverted and they want to always like

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take you out about and they want you to be

285
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quite extraateted too, but you might be a quieter child.

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And so trying to live up to those expectations, even

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though they come from such a good place, can often

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again leave people feeling like no one understands them and

289
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actually what they do in life may never be good enough.

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And that is such a theme at the moment I

291
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feel I see in my practices people just don't feel

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no matter what they do it's ever, it's ever good enough,

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and a lot of these tiny traumas play into it.

294
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So what I would say is early in life, what

295
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can happen is we can sort of create associations between

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some events, and then if similar things happen later in life,

297
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that can really trigger as we say these days, but

298
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they can bring to mind association in such a way,

299
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in such a way that it feels very powerful, and

300
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also that can then nudge us to engage in behaviors

301
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that are comforting but may not be that good for

302
00:18:43.559 --> 00:18:44.200
us as it were.

303
00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:48.519
Yeah, no, that makes sense. And as you were talking,

304
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I was thinking of people that I know, parents that

305
00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:55.039
I know who will have a great relationship with one

306
00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:57.640
child and they just can't connect with another. Like you said,

307
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they're just a completely different kind of person, and so

308
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:05.039
there's that constant kind of misalignment. So that's really interesting.

309
00:19:05.720 --> 00:19:11.480
So you talked about these different ways or different presenting problems.

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I guess that you see that are often a result

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of these tiny tea traumas. And I know that one

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of them that you talked about, and you mentioned it earlier,

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is imposter syndrome, which is a huge topic that I've

314
00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:25.480
been really diving into recently myself, because I see it

315
00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:29.200
all the time. I would love to hear your perspective

316
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about how the impact of these tiny teas on cultivating

317
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those imposter thoughts and feelings that feeling like I don't

318
00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:39.960
belong here, I'm a fraud. You know, it's very much

319
00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:42.200
a manifestation of the not good enough thing, isn't it?

320
00:19:43.079 --> 00:19:45.799
So how do tiny tea traumas relate to imposter syndrome?

321
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Yeah? And so those messages they come from somewhere, don't they?

322
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And I felt very strongly that a lot of the

323
00:19:55.640 --> 00:20:00.240
information on imposter syndrome there is just a missing piece. Okay,

324
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So a lot of the research that was just cross

325
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sectional that looked at sort of prevalence in terms of

326
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imposter syndrome, it always said women experience imposter syndrome more

327
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than men. I was like, but why why? I don't

328
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really believe innately there is a sort of biological reason

329
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that that should be.

330
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So why?

331
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And I couldn't find much information about this. It was

332
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really hard to find the mechanism of action around it.

333
00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:34.400
And then so digging deeper, digging deeper, and actually there

334
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is some evidence here and in terms of imposter syndrome.

335
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People that have experienced these tiny tea traumas, particularly microaggressions,

336
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so those everyday's slights and indignities that do happen on

337
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a frequent basis. Well, women and people from other minority

338
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groups are more likely to experience these things. So if

339
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you are perhaps in a workplace where you're you know,

340
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receiving many of these microaggressions on a daily basis, it's

341
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going to make you feel like you're an impostor. It's

342
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going to make you feel like you shouldn't be there.

343
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It's going to make you feel like you can't do

344
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this job. And I'm like, yeah, that makes sense, that

345
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makes total sense. Now, it's not just because that person

346
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happens to be a woman. It's because of these indignities,

347
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these emotional, just little cuts, psychological like little scrapes, So

348
00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:34.160
you know, people are subject to on such a regular basis,

349
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and it grinds you down and it makes you feel

350
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:43.279
like because they're subtle, because microaggressions are subtle, and sometimes

351
00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:46.880
the intention to do harm isn't there. And again, it's

352
00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:49.200
not about the intention, it's about the impact it has

353
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on the individual. Because we can't put a finger on it.

354
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A lot of the time, what do we do as

355
00:21:54.279 --> 00:21:57.160
human beings. As human beings, we are meaning making machines,

356
00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:00.240
and so we will make meaning out of something that

357
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feels confusing, and often that is to blame ourself. So

358
00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:06.519
it must be me. It must be me, because you know,

359
00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:08.519
it doesn't seem to be having with other people. So

360
00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:11.880
there's something wrong with me. I'm not good enough, I

361
00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:16.079
shouldn't be here. Maybe I'm faking it. I just don't know.

362
00:22:16.359 --> 00:22:19.160
And because we don't talk about tiny te traumas in

363
00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:21.759
the way that we talk about bigger T trauma, we

364
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maintain that sense of shame actually and secrecy around it.

365
00:22:28.839 --> 00:22:31.400
But what's been amazing cast I would say, in the past,

366
00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:33.799
only about five years, I would say, is that we

367
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:37.559
are starting to talk about these things, and once we

368
00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:40.519
can see there is a mechanism of action, we can

369
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start to do something about it so that all the

370
00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:48.599
responsibility isn't just placed on the individual and mental health.

371
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:50.480
I feel sometimes we do that a bit too much.

372
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We really place all of the work on the individual

373
00:22:54.279 --> 00:22:57.359
to do. But actually we are part of our environments

374
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and so perhaps we need to be doing some work

375
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work on an organizational level. On a macro level, I

376
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would say, to be able to help people to have

377
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the best mental health possible.

378
00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:14.160
Yeah, no, I totally agree. In fact, I just ran

379
00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:18.279
a session just this week on imposter syndrome and that

380
00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:21.359
came up. You know, well, surely there are these other

381
00:23:21.799 --> 00:23:25.839
factors that contribute, and of course there are, like but

382
00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:29.119
I think you would agree there's those big systemic changes

383
00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:30.519
that we need to make. And I think we're becoming

384
00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:34.200
more aware of inequities and the gender bias and the

385
00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:38.960
racial discrimination even and all of that unconscious bias. But

386
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:43.119
we still at an individual level, we can't necessarily change

387
00:23:43.160 --> 00:23:46.119
the world. But how can we change how we respond

388
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:50.359
to it? How can we feel less alone and ashamed?

389
00:23:50.519 --> 00:23:55.039
And you know work within the world that we do.

390
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Because because often because this is something that is a

391
00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:04.200
bit insiduous in it, it develops over time. What can

392
00:24:04.279 --> 00:24:07.880
happen is some of the effects of this simplicit bias

393
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:11.359
and the microaggressions can start to affect how we view ourselves.

394
00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:15.799
So we will start to engage in some cognitive distortions

395
00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:20.480
and we can minimize the good and maximize things that

396
00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:26.599
perhaps were a bit hurtful for us. So say For example,

397
00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:30.880
someone in a workplace may have received some feedback, and

398
00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:36.160
if you've experienced long term sort of tiny, teased microaggressions

399
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:40.039
and they've built up, you will jump on the negative

400
00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:43.119
bits of that feedback and be like, yeah, that's evidence,

401
00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:46.519
that's evidence that I know I'm rubbish at this, and

402
00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:50.680
they can see it and actually ignore quite a lot

403
00:24:50.920 --> 00:24:55.319
of the really positive feedback. So we need a reality

404
00:24:55.400 --> 00:24:59.240
check and again absolutely hav an awareness that these bigger,

405
00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:03.160
micro level things impact us organizational aspects, impact as but

406
00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:07.880
having the awareness and then taking accountability of ourselves too,

407
00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:11.519
we can change how we respond and not react to

408
00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:15.960
respond to a situation. And we can absolutely change our

409
00:25:16.039 --> 00:25:19.480
thought patterns because what I always say, which is a

410
00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:24.640
little bit contentious, many things might not be your fault,

411
00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:27.519
but you're the only one that can do anything about it. Yeah,

412
00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:31.039
I agree, And using that is a superpower though.

413
00:25:31.160 --> 00:25:33.079
You have the power.

414
00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:36.839
So to shift shift some of those thought patterns, but

415
00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:42.599
also to be proactive and say, actually I want some feedback.

416
00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:46.200
Seek out feedback about your performance if it is something

417
00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:49.440
that is work based along the theme of imposter syndrome,

418
00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:54.960
gain that information objectively, collect it like you're a detective

419
00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:59.480
and do that and figure out pick out what are

420
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:03.079
some of the coolnesses distortions that you may be engaging them,

421
00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:07.359
and what is the actual evidence there. And that can

422
00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:10.559
be very, very very helpful because we do get inside

423
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our own heads too.

424
00:26:12.200 --> 00:26:18.880
Yeah, yeah, we do. I hope that you're enjoying this

425
00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:23.359
conversation and realizing the benefits of positivity in your own life.

426
00:26:23.480 --> 00:26:25.680
If you are enjoying the show, please be sure to

427
00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:28.119
like and subscribe so that you get notified when you

428
00:26:28.200 --> 00:26:30.799
EPs drop and head on over to Apple Podcasts or

429
00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:33.119
wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review.

430
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:43.119
So imposter syndrome. Like I said, it's something that I'm

431
00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:45.680
really interested in, and it's one of kind of several

432
00:26:46.279 --> 00:26:50.759
different manifestations or presentations that you see that are often

433
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:56.240
a result or associated with these cumulative traumas that people

434
00:26:56.279 --> 00:26:58.880
pick up through the course of their lives. Another one

435
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:02.880
that you talk about is food and people's relationship with food.

436
00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:05.160
This is a huge topic for my audience. This is again,

437
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:06.839
this is another one that we're talking about all of

438
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:10.200
the time. How do you see the relationship or the

439
00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:14.160
association between these little tea traumas and food kind of

440
00:27:14.279 --> 00:27:17.319
unhealthy relationship with food.

441
00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:19.839
So absolutely, So a big part of my work is

442
00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:23.640
to do with emotional eating, so eating for the reasons

443
00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:28.440
but besides hunger physical hunger. And sometimes we think about

444
00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:31.319
emotional eating in a very sort of caricatured way in

445
00:27:31.400 --> 00:27:34.559
terms of perhaps having a breakup and going and just

446
00:27:34.680 --> 00:27:38.200
dive in for an ice cream or a big old

447
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:41.039
ball of pasta or something that is very comforting. But

448
00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:45.079
that's only a little part of it. Actually, food can

449
00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:48.759
be used in many, many ways, and if we think

450
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:54.559
about it, food is very delicately and intricately linked with

451
00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:58.119
our sense of love. So when we are grown up

452
00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:01.680
and you know, as we said before, life is really important.

453
00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:05.839
So in terms of just receiving a sense of comfort,

454
00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:10.480
absolutely absolutely, But it's not just that physiological effect. We

455
00:28:10.599 --> 00:28:14.920
can have those associations between For instance, say when I

456
00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:17.920
was a kid, absolutely, if I went to the doctor,

457
00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:22.119
my mum would always take me out for a tree afterwards,

458
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:25.640
so a sweet tree to kind of you know, make

459
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:29.440
it all okay. And that association is very strong. So

460
00:28:29.480 --> 00:28:35.319
if something feels uncomfortable, it makes total sense that people

461
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:39.279
who've had those sort of experiences would reach for food

462
00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:45.200
almost without without any conscious awareness of why they are

463
00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:49.160
doing that. Now we live in a world of ultra

464
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:54.119
processed food. This food has been manufactured so that it

465
00:28:54.319 --> 00:28:59.680
triggers a bliss point and it makes us feel really

466
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:04.440
good for a moment. It really is addictive like in

467
00:29:04.839 --> 00:29:08.079
that way, And there are industries that spend huge amounts

468
00:29:08.119 --> 00:29:10.640
of money to do this. But lay it onto that.

469
00:29:10.759 --> 00:29:14.319
There is so much advertising for food, So if we

470
00:29:14.359 --> 00:29:19.000
think about priming effects, they're constant and continual, so you

471
00:29:19.079 --> 00:29:21.440
may not even notice, and we don't when we think

472
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:24.440
about prime effects, don't we. But all these messages that

473
00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:27.519
are really you know, going into our brains in some

474
00:29:27.599 --> 00:29:31.079
capacity saying, oh you can get this and this food

475
00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:35.759
and this food, coupled with that association between comfort, then

476
00:29:35.799 --> 00:29:39.200
with the physiological effect this food has on us. It

477
00:29:39.960 --> 00:29:45.279
surprises me that not every single person has an issue

478
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.559
with food because it is so prevalent. It is so

479
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:51.920
so prevalent. So the first step in being able to

480
00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:56.000
disentangle this all is part of a process I developed

481
00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:59.400
so to help people deal with all of these presentations.

482
00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:02.720
There is so much many common themes that I've won process,

483
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:05.640
and it's called the Triple A Approach. Love It so

484
00:30:05.680 --> 00:30:08.279
the first day is aware this, yeah, having this sense

485
00:30:08.519 --> 00:30:13.640
of let's unpick, let's unpick our relationship with food. And

486
00:30:13.880 --> 00:30:17.240
one of the best and simplest and completely free ways

487
00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:20.319
to do this is to do a food and mood diary.

488
00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:23.720
So I would say, you don't need an app, you

489
00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:27.440
don't need any any sort of equipment to do this

490
00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:31.319
at all, pen and paper and then just write down

491
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:35.079
every day what you're eating, the time you're eating it.

492
00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:39.039
So that's a basic food diary, but really importantly how

493
00:30:39.079 --> 00:30:44.839
you were feeling beforehand, emotionally, how you feel afterwards, who

494
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:48.480
you're with, and what you were doing, and also to

495
00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:53.839
rate your level of physical hunger. And often with my clients,

496
00:30:54.200 --> 00:30:59.160
just doing that is so enlightening to see those patterns

497
00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:04.319
we have between perhaps feeling a bit low, but sometimes

498
00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:09.160
feeling very positive emotions, so feeling really really excited can

499
00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:13.960
lead people to over consume. And then we have that

500
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:19.440
information then going through a process of acceptance and then

501
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:23.319
finally action. So acceptance is the second A and action

502
00:31:23.559 --> 00:31:29.799
is the third A. Because having awareness and accepting that

503
00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:32.279
these things may have happened in your life, the tiny

504
00:31:32.359 --> 00:31:34.680
teas you may have this relationship with food that we

505
00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:37.759
want to change, we need to move into action, and

506
00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:40.559
sometimes we can get a bit stuck in awareness that

507
00:31:40.599 --> 00:31:44.559
we're really spending a huge amount of time and exploring

508
00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:46.440
all these things. But we need to be able to

509
00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:49.440
be dynamic about it and move to action, so to

510
00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:53.680
break some of those patterns and replace them. And what

511
00:31:53.720 --> 00:31:56.799
we know in psychology is that we don't really extinguish

512
00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:00.400
these these associations because they serve us for a reason

513
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:03.799
for some point, but we can replace the food with

514
00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:07.680
something else that brings us what we need in that moment.

515
00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:12.839
Yeah, I see. I love a process, I love a framework,

516
00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:19.039
so I appreciate your triple A model, Meg. So can

517
00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:21.279
I just go back to the acceptance part though? So

518
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:25.880
you said obviously awareness, and totally agree. You start documenting

519
00:32:26.599 --> 00:32:28.759
what's going on and suddenly all the light bulbs come

520
00:32:28.759 --> 00:32:31.240
on and you see these patterns because which most of

521
00:32:31.319 --> 00:32:34.039
us can't remember what we ate yesterday, let alone how

522
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:37.799
we were feeling last Thursday. So having it mapped can

523
00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:43.640
be such an important helpful thing to do. When you

524
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:46.839
say acceptance, though, can we talk more about that, big?

525
00:32:47.319 --> 00:32:50.960
I'm all about mindfulness and acceptance and self compassion. How

526
00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:53.920
crucial is that acceptance part, because I think when you

527
00:32:53.960 --> 00:32:56.480
talk about people can get really stuck in awareness. Often

528
00:32:56.519 --> 00:33:00.720
that awareness is tainted with self critics, isn't it? And

529
00:33:00.759 --> 00:33:01.480
self judgment?

530
00:33:01.960 --> 00:33:05.640
Oh oh, with hers out? We are so much harsher

531
00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:09.279
on ourselves than we would ever ever be on other people.

532
00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:13.400
And acceptance is probably the hardest bit, and is the

533
00:33:13.400 --> 00:33:17.720
bit that people tend to skip over and move straight

534
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:20.079
into action. And some of the actions will work for

535
00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:23.839
a short amount of time, but then because the acceptance

536
00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:27.519
piece hasn't really happened, they'll sort of bounce back and

537
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:31.000
be like, well, actually I tried all these tips that

538
00:33:31.079 --> 00:33:33.640
I saw online or a magazine and you know, but

539
00:33:33.880 --> 00:33:37.519
still don't really feel that Okay, So kas would you

540
00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:40.599
Wand if we do a little exercise to to sort

541
00:33:40.599 --> 00:33:50.359
of because should be scared maybe a little bit. So

542
00:33:50.720 --> 00:33:53.920
a lot of my work comes from acceptance and commitment therapy,

543
00:33:54.119 --> 00:33:56.200
which I have a huge amount of time for. So

544
00:33:56.799 --> 00:34:00.000
we're going to do other like sides. So cass imagine

545
00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:05.319
that you are on the edge, on the edge of

546
00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:10.760
a deep, dark black hole. You're on the precipice of

547
00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:14.119
this black hole and if you if you fell down it,

548
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:21.639
you would be utterly consumed. Can you see that? Mm hmm. Okay,

549
00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:27.079
now bring to minds either a monster or a nemesis,

550
00:34:27.639 --> 00:34:31.880
something that is very powerful that does want to harm you.

551
00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:37.199
For me, it's Penny Wise from Stephen King's it by

552
00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:41.480
that absolutely terrifying. That clown just awful. But what is

553
00:34:41.480 --> 00:34:46.039
it for you? What is your your monster in your mind?

554
00:34:46.760 --> 00:34:48.880
I have trouble coming up with a monster. Okay, I

555
00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:50.400
can probably think of something that used to scare me

556
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:51.639
as a child. Do I just have to think it

557
00:34:51.719 --> 00:34:53.280
or don't have to say it.

558
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:54.760
It would be great if you could share it, if

559
00:34:54.760 --> 00:34:56.039
you're comfortable with sharing.

560
00:34:57.079 --> 00:35:00.519
Oh. The only thing that makes me feel like at all,

561
00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:03.679
because now I'm grown up, is I used to this

562
00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:06.320
just gonna sound so strange. I used to have nightmares

563
00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:08.239
when I was a child about these like almost like

564
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:11.199
smurf creatures that were just but they were really scary

565
00:35:11.239 --> 00:35:12.719
and they would chase me and they would always be

566
00:35:12.840 --> 00:35:16.239
under my bed. So I can I can recall, I

567
00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:19.920
can bring to mind the sensation of those those like

568
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:21.760
scary smurfs.

569
00:35:21.880 --> 00:35:25.239
Brilliant scary smurfs. I can see this. I can see

570
00:35:25.239 --> 00:35:28.679
these evil smurfs in my mind as well, okay, so

571
00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:32.920
the Evil Smurfs they are on the other side of

572
00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:37.239
the black hole. On the other side between you and

573
00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:41.960
the Evil Smurfs is a rope. Okay, okay, So the

574
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:46.400
Evil Smurfs they are tugging, they are trying to pull you.

575
00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:48.480
You're grabbing onto rope and they are trying to pull

576
00:35:48.519 --> 00:35:51.639
you into the black hole, and you are trying to

577
00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:54.480
pull back. You're trying to keep your feet on on

578
00:35:54.559 --> 00:35:57.920
the edge, on the edge, on the ground. How does

579
00:35:57.960 --> 00:36:00.440
it feel to be pulling so hard?

580
00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:07.960
Exhausting and scary? Yeah, yeah, it's a yeah, tiring.

581
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:14.559
Okay, So the Evil Smurfs they're still there. They're still there,

582
00:36:14.679 --> 00:36:17.519
They're still pulling. It might even be laughing at you,

583
00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:22.119
giggling a bit and really tugging. Now, let go of

584
00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:23.320
the rope.

585
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:34.239
Oh yeah, ah, how does that feel? I love that exercise.

586
00:36:35.239 --> 00:36:37.199
And that is the power of acceptance.

587
00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:42.719
Yeah, it's like, oh, letting go. That's a perfect analogy.

588
00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:47.280
I love that we often conflate acceptance with resignation, and

589
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:50.719
acceptance is letting go, but it's not giving in. It's

590
00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:53.800
not giving in or giving up. Acceptance is having psychological

591
00:36:53.840 --> 00:36:58.840
flexibility rather than psychological rigidity. Acceptance is empowering because you

592
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:02.840
can take that energy that you were using trying to pull,

593
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:06.199
trying to battle with those evil smurves, you can use

594
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:09.599
the energy for something else exactly right.

595
00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:13.440
So the struggle that we get into with I shouldn't

596
00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:15.159
be doing this and what's wrong with me that? And

597
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:18.880
why do I keep doing this? That's the that's the metaphor, right,

598
00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:21.800
just come to peace with it, just let it go,

599
00:37:22.039 --> 00:37:22.440
let it be.

600
00:37:23.320 --> 00:37:25.880
Often one of the things that are driving the kind

601
00:37:25.960 --> 00:37:29.239
of maladaptive behavior and thought patterns I see that then

602
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:32.559
end up in these presentations. It's that battle we have

603
00:37:32.840 --> 00:37:38.320
internally with ourselves. And no, we can't change the past.

604
00:37:38.519 --> 00:37:41.119
We can reframe a lot of our experiences, but what

605
00:37:41.159 --> 00:37:44.840
we can do is we can use our energy to

606
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:48.679
create a future that serves us in a much better way.

607
00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:53.599
M Yeah, that's powerful. I'm a big fan of acceptance

608
00:37:53.639 --> 00:37:55.960
and commitment therapy as well, but I have never heard

609
00:37:55.960 --> 00:37:58.159
that exercise, So that's great. I know listeners are going

610
00:37:58.199 --> 00:37:59.760
to love that. They're going to be using that now.

611
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:00.480
I love it.

612
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:02.440
It's a good one, And that's the that's the power

613
00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:05.039
of metaphor, isn't it too? Like that's a whole other conversation,

614
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:09.000
but embedded into act, into acceptance of comitment therapy. There's

615
00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:11.440
a lot of use of metaphors because they just are

616
00:38:11.480 --> 00:38:16.599
so powerful to enforce and instill a message that you

617
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:19.400
otherwise don't get when you're trying to think about it

618
00:38:19.400 --> 00:38:24.320
with your without analytical brains. No, that's really that's really useful.

619
00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:27.519
And Meg, are you able to just quickly because there's

620
00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:29.000
a lot that you cover in your book. We've only

621
00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:33.039
talked about the tiniest, tiniest bit of tiny trauma, but

622
00:38:33.199 --> 00:38:35.440
there's a lot that you talk about in your book

623
00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:38.559
that and these are issues and problems that, as you say,

624
00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:43.199
are widespread. They affect a lot of people. People who

625
00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:46.280
are otherwise you know, doing okay in life. People struggle

626
00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:48.199
to know what's going Why am I happy? Why should

627
00:38:48.199 --> 00:38:48.760
be happy?

628
00:38:49.079 --> 00:38:51.480
All the shirts there's should have wits?

629
00:38:51.639 --> 00:38:56.639
Yeah, right, So that's why I think this is so important.

630
00:38:56.679 --> 00:38:58.639
So can you just give us a little snapshot of

631
00:38:58.679 --> 00:39:01.199
like what some of the other issues are. I guess

632
00:39:01.239 --> 00:39:04.599
what some of the other problems that you see that

633
00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:06.800
you've presented in the book that you've laid out for

634
00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:10.000
people that I know that people will resonate with and

635
00:39:10.039 --> 00:39:10.559
relate to.

636
00:39:11.159 --> 00:39:16.280
Obviously relationships and love. We as human beings, we are

637
00:39:16.599 --> 00:39:21.960
group creatures. We do need others in life to thrive,

638
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:26.800
and so that is always that's always a complex and

639
00:39:27.239 --> 00:39:32.920
really fascinating topic too when we're thinking about love and

640
00:39:33.079 --> 00:39:35.519
our sort of template of love, and that does come

641
00:39:35.559 --> 00:39:38.519
from early life, and there's a huge amount of research

642
00:39:38.599 --> 00:39:41.760
that says it's based on your attachment style. So you're

643
00:39:41.800 --> 00:39:46.079
either securely attached, so you feel that what you've received

644
00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:50.599
sensitive parenting for you, that was appropriate for you, and

645
00:39:50.760 --> 00:39:52.880
you do feel secure in the world so that you

646
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:55.480
can go out and explore it in a way that

647
00:39:56.039 --> 00:39:59.960
it does feel safe. Whereas if you have an insecure attachment,

648
00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:04.000
and there are various subtypes of that, you may develop

649
00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:09.719
some relationships that are maladaptive and perhaps you feel insecure,

650
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:13.159
perhaps you feel anxious, perhaps you're a bit avoidant about

651
00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:16.280
relationships and love. The point I want to make here

652
00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:21.119
is that for a long time research said when we

653
00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:22.639
were told, and a lot that has to do with

654
00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:25.159
the way the research was carried out, that these attachment

655
00:40:25.159 --> 00:40:29.960
styles are fixed, like once you have developed one, you

656
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:31.800
have that for the rest of your life, and that

657
00:40:31.960 --> 00:40:35.239
is not the case, Cass, It is not the case.

658
00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:40.199
So through certainly through therapeutic interventions in psychology, but also

659
00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:44.119
through other experiences in life, you could have an insecure

660
00:40:44.119 --> 00:40:47.880
attachment style, but actually you can develop a secure attachment style.

661
00:40:48.519 --> 00:40:53.880
We have neuroplasticity, We can actually change the connections in

662
00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:56.639
our brains again, as they say, to serve us in

663
00:40:56.679 --> 00:41:01.800
a better way. And with regards to relationships, we have

664
00:41:01.960 --> 00:41:06.000
focused so much on romantic relationships too, and there are

665
00:41:06.079 --> 00:41:09.760
other relationships that are profoundly important to us. And I

666
00:41:09.880 --> 00:41:13.239
focus in the book on friendships and the breakdown of

667
00:41:13.320 --> 00:41:16.639
friendships and how difficult that can be. I've seen so

668
00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:20.079
many clients and again when we're talking about tiny tees,

669
00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:24.239
they'll be like, well, you know, it's not my primary relationship.

670
00:41:24.280 --> 00:41:27.000
You know, I haven't broken up with my partner. But

671
00:41:27.119 --> 00:41:30.119
actually I have a friends who we were friends for

672
00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:33.599
a long time and I don't hear from them anymore,

673
00:41:33.639 --> 00:41:37.559
and I feel I feel profoundly hurt and rejected and

674
00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:41.039
it's really affecting me. And again to have this more

675
00:41:41.119 --> 00:41:44.639
nuanced discussion about these topics. So it's not just about

676
00:41:44.679 --> 00:41:48.639
that primary romantic relationship. It is about other relationships that

677
00:41:48.679 --> 00:41:51.800
we have that can impact us. And there is such

678
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:56.679
a sort of relationship perfectionism sort of theme, definitely with

679
00:41:56.760 --> 00:42:00.639
regards to friendships and female friendships, and for particularly like

680
00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:04.199
these should be you know, perfect, like your best friends

681
00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:06.039
will see you through life and they'll see you through

682
00:42:06.039 --> 00:42:10.079
all the ups and downs. Actually friends can be for

683
00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:13.920
a reason, for a season or for a lifetime. And

684
00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:18.199
when we can let go of those expectations that we

685
00:42:18.280 --> 00:42:22.400
can have of a relationship, we can actually go with

686
00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:26.360
the flow a bit more, but have a much better

687
00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:30.760
relationship with our view of relationships.

688
00:42:32.519 --> 00:42:34.440
I'm so glad that you mentioned that, because that is

689
00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:37.159
that's huge, and I think there's also this there's a

690
00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:40.960
lot of kind of comparison when you see other people

691
00:42:41.159 --> 00:42:43.840
with their best friend and you aspire to, like, I

692
00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:46.960
don't have a friend like that, and the pain and

693
00:42:47.000 --> 00:42:52.679
the emotional experience of disruptions and breakdowns in communication with

694
00:42:52.719 --> 00:42:55.920
those friendships can be just as painful.

695
00:42:56.400 --> 00:43:00.280
More so in terms of even my own experience, I've

696
00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:04.719
found the breakdown of friendships to often be more painful

697
00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:09.599
than perhaps a romantic relationship. And again, if you think

698
00:43:09.639 --> 00:43:11.920
of all the messages we receive.

699
00:43:11.719 --> 00:43:15.599
All the movies we've watched in our lives about friendships

700
00:43:16.119 --> 00:43:20.559
and about how perfect again they should be if they're

701
00:43:20.599 --> 00:43:21.840
your true friends.

702
00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:25.199
Come on, life's just not like that. We get busy

703
00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:28.639
casts in life, we have kids, we change jobs, we

704
00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:31.599
move country. You know, all these things happened, or we

705
00:43:32.199 --> 00:43:35.519
just change as people and we're no longer on the

706
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:39.199
same page, and that's okay, That is okay. We can

707
00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:41.079
value the friendship for what it was at a time

708
00:43:41.079 --> 00:43:43.639
and our life when it served us. But actually we

709
00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:46.760
can move on, or we can just have a bit

710
00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:49.239
of a pause in terms of if a friend is

711
00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:51.719
for a season and come back to that friend. That

712
00:43:51.800 --> 00:43:55.119
often happens when perhaps some people have kids at a

713
00:43:55.159 --> 00:43:58.239
different time than other people, we go into a different

714
00:43:58.280 --> 00:44:02.679
sort sort of phase of stage life. So the key

715
00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:10.159
here again is to unpick what are these sorecisal expectations

716
00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:15.159
that are maybe playing into some of these maladaptive thought

717
00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:19.519
patterns that then impact how we feel about ourselves, how

718
00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:22.679
we feel about relationships. But they often do then impact

719
00:44:22.760 --> 00:44:25.719
our behavior and in a way that can be harmful.

720
00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:32.320
Yeah, yeah, that's really great advice. Meg. Thank you so

721
00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:34.760
much for your time today. I'm going to put the

722
00:44:34.760 --> 00:44:38.440
link to the book Tiny Traumas in the show notes.

723
00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:40.119
You know, there's a lot more in the book, so

724
00:44:40.159 --> 00:44:42.039
perhaps we can even come, you know, get you back

725
00:44:42.039 --> 00:44:44.400
on the show again down the track to talk some more.

726
00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:48.039
But I will certainly let everybody know where to find you.

727
00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:54.920
Thank you so much, Thank you, kas, thank you. Doctor

728
00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:58.039
Meg's book is called Tiny Traumas When you don't know

729
00:44:58.079 --> 00:45:01.079
what's wrong but nothing feels quite right, and it is

730
00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:04.400
available right now in all bookstores. You can catch up

731
00:45:04.440 --> 00:45:07.480
with doctor Meg at her website, doctor megaryl dot com.

732
00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:09.320
I'll put that link in the show notes. If you

733
00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:11.559
enjoyed this conversation, I would recommend you go back and

734
00:45:11.599 --> 00:45:14.679
listen to my conversation with doctor Sarah Woodhouse. She wrote

735
00:45:14.679 --> 00:45:17.480
a book called You're Not Broken, which was also a

736
00:45:17.679 --> 00:45:20.760
really great book and a great conversation about the impact

737
00:45:20.880 --> 00:45:24.360
of trauma in our lives, whether that be small TA

738
00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:27.840
or other T or big T trauma. Obviously, if you

739
00:45:27.960 --> 00:45:30.880
enjoy the episode, if you enjoy the podcast, please share

740
00:45:30.920 --> 00:45:33.039
it with others. Help us get into the ears of

741
00:45:33.079 --> 00:45:35.599
more listeners. Give us a rating and a review, or

742
00:45:35.599 --> 00:45:38.440
click the plus button on Apple or Spotify to subscribe

743
00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:40.519
so you never miss an episode. If you would like

744
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:42.639
me to tell you when there is a new episode,

745
00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:46.639
come to my website cast doone dot com, forward slash subscribe,

746
00:45:47.000 --> 00:45:48.960
and I will send you an email telling you who

747
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:51.159
the guest is so that you can choose whether you

748
00:45:51.239 --> 00:45:54.400
want to tune in or not. In the meantime, come

749
00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:56.960
and follow me on Instagram. Cast done underscore XO, and

750
00:45:57.000 --> 00:45:58.840
I can't wait to catch you on the next episode

751
00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:04.880
of Crapy to Happy