Dec. 27, 2020

Transcending with Scott Barry Kaufman

Transcending with Scott Barry Kaufman
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Transcending with Scott Barry Kaufman
Transcending with Scott Barry Kaufman
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Season 6 Psychology & Neuroscience Positive Psychology

Scott Barry Kaufman is a fellow psychologist, host of The Psychology Podcast and author of the book, “Transcend”. Scott talks with Cass Dunn about his new and updated theory of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and shares his ideas for how we can all live with more meaning and purpose in life, ultimately transcending our human experience to serve the greater good.You can buy Scott's book Transcend here: https://tinyurl.com/bwj34y8p
For more about Scott:
https://scottbarrykaufman.com/Instagram: @scottbarrykaufman
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypodwww.tiktok.com/crappytohappypod
Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

Connect with Cass:

www.cassdunn.com
www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypod
www.tiktok.com/@crappytohappypod


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Transcript
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A listener production. Hi, you're listening to Crappy to Happy.

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I'm your host, cast Doun. I'm a clinical and coaching

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psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher and author of the Crappy

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to Happy books. In this series, we talk about all

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the things that might be making you feel crappy and

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share tools and tips to help you overcome them. In

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each episode, I chat with interesting, inspiring, and intelligent people

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who are experts in their field, and my hope is

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that you take something away from these conversations that helps

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you feel a little bit less crappy and more happy.

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Today's guest is Scott Barry Kaufman, a fellow psychologist and

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host of the world's leading psychology podcast aptly titled The

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Psychology Podcast. Scott has published a book called Transcend The

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New Science of Self Actualization, in which he presents his

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own reworked model of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Most of

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us are familiar with the hierarchy that's typically presented as

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a pyramid, with physiological needs at the bottom, then safety, belonging, esteem,

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and then the pinnacle of human needs, self actualization. Scott

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has spent years examining a lot of Abraham Maslow's unpublished work,

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and found that Maslow himself never considered self actualization or

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the fulfillment of personal potential to be the ultimate goal,

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but to use our potential in the service of contributing

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to the greater good and ultimately to transcend the limits

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of human experience. Altogether, it's a weighty book, both literally

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and metaphorically, and it's a huge topic to cover in

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a short podcast interview, but I hope it might pique

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your curiosity and especially if you're a psychology buff, to

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encourage you to consider an alternative theory of human needs, motivations,

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and ultimately what we're all here to do in this lifetime.

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Here's my conversation with Scott. Scott, thank you so much

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for being on the Crappy to Happy podcast today.

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Thanks for having me. You're so enthusiastic in your email.

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I am enthusiastic all of the time, but I was

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especially enthusiastic to talk to you because I have just

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finished reading your book, Transcend the New Science of Self Actualization,

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and congratulations on the book.

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Thank you. That means a lot to me.

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I couldn't wait to get you on the podcast to

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talk about it. So Scott. What you have come up

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with is a new science of Maslow's theory of self actualization,

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so his hierarchy of needs. Basically, I think most of

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us have been exposed to Maslow's original theory, if not

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a watered down version of it. Oh yeah, you're right.

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But before we jump in for those who are going,

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oh yeah, I think I've heard of that, but I'm

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not really sure, could you just give us a little

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summary of what his original model was, which we often

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see as a pyramid or a triangle.

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The original model that you often will see as a

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meme with Wi Fi written in at the bottom of

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a hierarchy of needs or a toilet paper written in

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the bottom. And then you have your your physiological needs,

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you have safety needs, you have connection, you have self esteem,

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and then you go boop. You go all the way

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up to self actualization. After that, you know, like done,

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and then you're done, you're self Actually, now, this this

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original model is a very static model. It's a very

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it's like it kind of treats life like it's a

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video game that as though you reach one set of

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needs and then when you when you reach a certain

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level of that some voice from above says like congrets

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even locked the next level, and then you can move

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on and then you know, life is not like a

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video game. Life is just not not not like that.

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You know, like life is an experience. It's a constantly

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dynamic experience. It's a it's like, you know, it's a

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developmental We can move two steps forward, think we're making

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a lot of progress. Then we then we follow the

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way you know, on our butt, and then we have

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to get up again and keep going again. And you know,

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it's just content two steps forward, one step back, dynamic,

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and it's you know, I mean, mas Will never drew

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a pyramid, So there's that too. He never depicted it

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that way. He never depicted it that way. I really

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do think he was a developmental psychologist at HURT.

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I love in the book too, that you do what

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you have done is explored all of his work, including

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a lot of his unpublished work, all the way up

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until the day he died, and discovered really that the

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theory that we are all exposed to is, for a start,

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not what he was necessarily ever saying. But also you

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have taken a lot of that unpublished work and kind

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of reformulated it into your own model.

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Is that fair to say, Oh yeah, I got the

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Kaufman sale boat.

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You got the Kaufman sale boat.

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Oh no, I'm patenting that it's big in Australia. It's

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big in Australia. By the way, for some reason, I

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am big in Australia more so than in my own country.

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Is that right? Because Zakistan. Now I'm drinking of the

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United States right now. But Australia loves the Psychology podcast

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and positive psychology. I think Australia is just people are

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more enthusiastic about positive psychology. A lot people in America

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are pre enthusiastic with positichology. But I just find Australia

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the rankings, and you know, people, the amount of people

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that like write me emails saying they're my fans, you know,

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coming from Australia. I'm like, Okay, well, Australia, how you doing.

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I see you over there. I see Australia.

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This is why we're so thrilled to have you here.

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I think you're right.

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Thank you. Sorry for that little tangent.

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So your sailboat model is very much more relevant to

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the twenty first century, I think, and much more in

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line with what Maslow originally was trying to express. Can

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you explain the sailboat to us before we dig into

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the various kind of stages of growth.

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Yeah, dear the sailboat. And I'm using a lot of

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people can't see, but I'm feeling in the mood to

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use lots of hand motions today for some reason to

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punctuate my points. But no one can see it except you.

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But the sailboat, you know, has different components to it,

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and you have the boat of basic needs that have

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to be met. And if we don't have those basic

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needs met, we can't really go anywhere. You know, we

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were so preoccupied with plugging the boat and the holes

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in the boat and fulfilling and satisfying deficiencies in our soul,

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you know, like a desperate need to be liked, a

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desperate need to connect and have some sense of intimacy

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in our life, a sense of safety. But if we

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can plug those those holes enough where the boat can

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actually move, then we can open the sail. And you know,

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opening the sale allows us to well, not just move,

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but move in a purposeful direction. That's the point. The

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point is, ultimately we want to be moving in the

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sense of this sense of purpose, sense of we want

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a sense of meaning, exploration, love, you know, in the

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unknown of the sea. But you know, ways can come

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crashing down on all of us at any time, and

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then we realize we weren't the only ones in the sea,

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you know, even though we were moving in our in

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our own direction. You know, waves can come crashing down.

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So I think there's various levels which a boat is

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a better metaphor for.

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Life, and so in the boat you agree, yes, absolutely,

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and I think it's I think it more accurately, as

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you say, represents what life is like. And the and

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the sailboat can shift in different directions too, and sometimes

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you have to drop the anchor, and it's it's much

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more dynamic, I think, and reflective of every individual's personal evolution,

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which is what it's all about.

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Right, Yes, I think that is what it's all about.

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And yeah, thanks for thanks for your feedback.

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For people listening who aren't familiar with Kaufman Sailboat. In

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the bottom to the base, the base needs characterized well,

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you have represented them as security needs is the boat

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and then the growth needs are in the sale and

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our basic secure needs a safety connection and self esteem.

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Correct I was very interested that you included attachment security

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because that's a big interest of mine as a psychologist,

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is attachment needs across the lifespan. And you've included attachment

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security as a fundamental safety need, which I think a

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lot of people theories. I think they just exclude that

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they do the impact of our fundamental need for emotional

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security and attachment security and the impact on trauma of

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so many of us number one, great, I'm glad that

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you have acknowledged that and included that. Do you think

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that there are a lot of us, or people generally,

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who are trying to potentially jump to growth and bypass

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some of these more basic emotional security needs which are

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so necessary before we can really move on and fulfill

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our potential so to speak.

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I mean, it depends what you're most unmet needs are.

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You know, you have to strive for it. You know

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a lot of people who have unmet needs. I should

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say not it's not only depends on what your unmet

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need is, but how much that matters to you that

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it's unmet. You might have an unmet need for social status,

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but you don't care, you know, like that's not what

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drives you in life. Or some people are you know,

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obsessed with intimacy and connection love you know, women love

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that stuff.

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But.

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They're obsessed with connection cheeky. But but some people are

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you know, emotional connection, you know, they love that. And

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then but then other people are like they it's like

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speaking a different language other people like I don't even

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That's not what drives me in my day to day life,

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you know. So it's just interesting to see. I'm very

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interested in individual differences, you know, and and how people

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really differ from each other and what what needs matter

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then what don't. For a lot of people who want

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to be in relationships, having a secure attachment is is

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important certainly for sure. And having a sense of a

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safe base for for someone that you can go back

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to and you can explore, but that you feel is

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there for you in times of need. It's important to

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have some sense of trust in your relationships, no matter

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what what, whatever your needs are. But I did want

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to make the point there there are individual differences and

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and and sex differences there are there's there's research on

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that on which needs are more important. So so that

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the counterpart to making fun of women and I can

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make fun of men now I like making fun of everyone,

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equally making fun of men who are obsessed with power.

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They're their thing is power. And you know, on on average,

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on average, when you look at differences, whereas communion women

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love community, men you know, on average tend to be

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much more preoccupied with social status and and rising the

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top of a hierarchy. And of course you see lots

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of individual differences in variation with in each gender.

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You know.

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Of course, of course there's a lot of women interest

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and power and a lot of But I do think,

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you know, discussing individual differences as well as gender differences

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and different unmet needs can help us to explain and

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understand a lot of strife we see in the world today.

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I don't know if you've noticed, but there's a lot

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of discord and I really want to, like, I want

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to like increase our understanding of each other.

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I found it really interesting that you made the point

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in terms of that like whether it's important to your

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whether it matters to you, just going back to that

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attachment piece. Obviously, for people who don't understand attachment theory,

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we're all kind of on a spectrum of more or

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less anxious in our attachment style, or more or less avoidant.

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And you made the point very effectively that people who

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are higher in the avoidant tend to be fine, cope

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better with life, and are happier generally. But people who

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are higher on the anxious spectrum struggle.

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More, Yes, for sure, and they're probably struggle more in

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general in their life. They probably score high on a

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personality trait called neuroticism, where they see everything as a

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threat in their life, and that's just that's no way

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to live, you know, to see everything as a threat

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and to be anxious all the time. I mean, you know,

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you do see some personality traits are correlated with some

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of these things as well, some early childhood experiences where

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maybe early in childhood we were signaled in our environment

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just that you know that we can't trust the environment.

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It's a shame. A lot of people form these beliefs

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very young, and then they don't change their beliefs. They

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don't they don't revise them.

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No, that is so true, And then people go through

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life feeling like saying, I hear it all the time,

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you know, but this is just who I am, Like,

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this is just how I am, and not necessarily having

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that understanding that these old patterns, or that they've adopted

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these ways of being in the world, you know, for

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a good reason, but it's not that they can't be changed.

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Well, I definitely agree with that, and and there's some

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instances of these things changing.

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I was also interested in the self esteem which you

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put in the bottom of the sailboat. Like in the

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boat part, you put self esteem as a fundamental safety need,

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but you also make the distinction between a healthy self

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esteem and unhealthy self esteem and for instance, narcissism. In

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all of this, what I was most interested in is

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you talk about, or you refer to Maslow's distinction between

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what he called the D realm and the B realm.

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So for people listening, that's more like something that is

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a deficiency need, as you said at the start of

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this conversation, or versus the bee, which is like the being,

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and that is more like the becoming, right, the evolving growth,

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the growth, the growth realm. I would like to hear

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you explain it if I've got this correctly. But for example,

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with self esteem, we all have the same need, but

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sometimes our pursuit or our pursuits for our goals are

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driven really from a deficiency perspective as opposed to a

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growth perspective, and that there's a real that's a distinction

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to be made within the individual about what is driving

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our pursuit of whatever goals it is that we're trying

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to achieve. Like if is it love or esteem? That

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is it healthy? I want to be the best person

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I could be? Or is it because I need you

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to validate me or I need you to love me

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so that I feel okay in myself.

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Well, I make a distinction in the book between connection,

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the need for connection and the need for love. And well,

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also maketually you have all these finely green nerdy distinctions,

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please bear with me. I distinguish between the need to

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belong and the need for intimacy. I distinguish between the two. Now,

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the need for belonging often has tied more to our

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self esteem, because we want to be liked, We want

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to be accepted. We can be accepted by groups, by clubs. Yeah, okay,

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that this. You know, the Malibu Soho club whatever accepted me.

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They didn't. I mean, that's not the true they didn't

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accept me. But I'm saying, let's say if they did

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accept me, then you know, be like I'd be like,

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oh great, I'm accepted. But do am I intimate with them?

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Like?

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Is there any relationship, real, true, genuine, authentic relationship. Let's

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say you know, a religious organization, political organization. You know,

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a lot of these young kids are sacrificing their lives

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in political extremism. They belong but they feel a sense

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of belonging. But do they feel intimacy? Do they feel

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a sense of relatedness? You know, maybe their self esteem

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is boosted in a lot of ways, but their real

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core striving and yearning for intimacy is still unmet. And

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then you know, you can have the need for love,

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which is a higher need than everything I just mentioned,

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which is about love for humanity what Maslow called being

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love love for the being of others.

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So, Scott, so many of us these days are on

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this path of personal development, of self improvement, of wanting

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to achieve our highest potential, to fulfill who you know,

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be the best person we can be. What do you

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see as some of the challenges that people face in

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achieving those things in their own personal growth, Well, they.

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Often get in their in their own way. You know,

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they often get their own way because they're they're they're

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so motivated by deficiency, they're so motivated by this this

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lack of of what they have as opposed to moving

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towards what what a bright, hopeful, more purposeful future could

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look like. A lot of it really is that kind

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of imagination and allowing your and allowing yourself to tenter

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that being realm of human existence, you know, the good growth,

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the growth realm where you aren't so driven by your

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narcissistic insecurities, you aren't so driven by your profound loneliness

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and other insecurities and defenses defense mechanisms.

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It requires a fair level of self awareness, though, doesn't

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it that perhaps people are lacking even in recognizing that

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the role of those defense mechanisms. And for me, it's

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all about I mean, I do coaching psychology as well.

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It's for what purpose? You know, you want to achieve

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that goal? For what purpose? And I think that's the

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point you're making, right. Is it to satisfy some deficiency

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or is it really to fulfill your greatest potential? Are

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you trying to feel better about yourself? Or sure up

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you're lacking self esteem or loneliness or something.

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That's exactly right?

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So you do coaching yeah, I do. I do coaching

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and positive psychology.

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Yeah it's awesome.

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I'man a clinical psychologist as well.

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But yeah, no, that's big props to you. Much respect. Yeah,

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you know, you see, and I do coaching too, so

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we can talk the same we can talk the same language.

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You know, a lot of clients I noticed just common

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themes over and over again. I'd love to hear it

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if you notice the same themes. But you really see,

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at the heart of it, people just want to be

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validated for what's good within them. And a lot of

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them are so harsh and cold to themselves and they

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don't see it. They don't see it because they're with

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themselves all the time. You know. Sometimes it takes someone

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like a coach to be able to do the you

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know what positive psychologists call strength spotting. I'm a big

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fan of the strength spotting approach, and I think that

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that's probably the biggest thing a coach can do to

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be valuable in a coaching session. And yeah, I'll just

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stop there because I want to hear some of your

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thoughts about, like, what are some common themes about what

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you think is most walking your clients their self actualization.

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Transcendence, yeah, I think one hundred percent that we are

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typically highly self critical and very much and I understand

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that as I talk about this as well. We have

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a brain that is wired to focus on problems and

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look full lack, and so it takes an intentional effort

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to shift that perspective onto what is good and what

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is working well and what is to be appreciated not

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just in our lives and in our worlds, but also

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within ourselves.

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Beautiful. Yeah, there is so much projection going on these days.

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I don't want to mention specific you know, names of presidents,

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but just you know, there are various people that will

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be like like they'll be so bleedantly something like let's

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say someone's so bliantly racist and then they make a

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statement like I'm the least racist person on the planet.

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You know, you're projector you're we people are just not

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seeing anything within themselves, fundamental lack of self insight.

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I think the other thing that I've really seen recently,

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and referring back to your model and you're your sailboat,

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is that we have a fundamental need for belonging. That's universal,

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that's part of our human condition, but at its extreme

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or you know, it evolves into this kind of tribalism,

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this very much them and us mentality, which is what

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I see. I'm sure you know we all see it

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happening in the world. You're either with me or you're

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not with me, and there's no there's no nothing in between.

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You either disagree with me or you agree like like

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as if, like, why does everyone have to agree with you?

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People are like, it's a moral it's a moral offense.

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Now if someone doesn't agree with you, if someone doesn't

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agree with you, that means that that they're evil.

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Yeah, there's no room for this, h for sharing, openly,

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sharing of different perspectives. I think I found that really

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interesting because I was observing as I was reading your book,

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I was observing it all around me. I want to

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go back to your distinction between love as a growth

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need as distinct from belonging and connection. We all understand,

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you know, very much. So now there's a lot of

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so much research about the need for connection. Loneliness kills.

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You know, we've all heard those stats that have come

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out of some of the research, and the Vic Murphy's

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new book together as well. How do you distinguish between

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love big love, growth love, and our personal need for

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intimacy and connection and relationships.

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Well I was, I was actually mentioning that a little

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bit earlier than an earthquake happened interrupted us and now joking,

390
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I'm in California. It's a California joke, bad California jok Okay,

391
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but no, yeah, So, as I was alluding to earlier,

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like love, I see it. Oh, thanks, Alexa. Love is

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this higher form of of of consciousness where we it's

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more like an attitude of verb as I see it too.

395
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Then to care about our fellow humans regardless of you

396
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know how much we feel like we connect with them,

397
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You know how much we feel like like you feel

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a sense of like, Oh, well, we have the same values,

399
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you know. I really do believe you can love people

400
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that you don't like, and you can love people who

401
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don't connect with You can have a faith in humanity

402
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while recognizing the imperfections of humanity. And also I see

403
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love as something that can be directed inward or outward.

404
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You know, it can be directed inward for self compassion,

405
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self love, healthy self love. Now, narcissism is unhealthy self love.

406
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But there is such a thing as healthy self love.

407
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You know where you have self care. Self care, you know,

408
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and you also find and I find in my research

409
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studies over and over that people who tend to have

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self care tend to also be more likely to care

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about others. There's a there's a correlation.

412
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Yeah, very interesting. I as you talk about that kind

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of love for humanity. I do practice mindfulness meditation, have

414
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an interest in Buddhist philosophy and psychology, and it reminds

415
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me kind of the meta the loving kindness, love for

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all beings. I think you even mentioned Sharon Salzburg and

417
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her work in the book and her concept of real love.

418
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Yeah, I mean, I'm a big fan of Sharon Salzburg's

419
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work and she's going to be my podcast soon. We

420
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chatted about her. She's a new book. You know. The

421
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sense of this whole idea of love as a freely

422
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given gift, which is how Sharon frames the situation, is

423
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very much in line with Maslow's notion of be love,

424
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love for the being of others, and also just being loving.

425
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I feel like as an antidote to to a lot

426
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of these problems, a lot of this conflict and a

427
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lot of the problems that we're seeing in the world,

428
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right now more important than ever, I think, for more

429
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:06.839
people to adopt that kind of being love attitude.

430
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I think, so, I mean, I know, so you're right.

431
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It's tricky. It's tricky, and with people who feel like

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their fundamental needs are being encroached on through discrimination, through

433
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all sorts of forms of oppression, as they see, it's

434
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it's harder for them to just get feel love.

435
00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:32.000
You know.

436
00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:35.279
It's one of those things like it's just like the sailboat.

437
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You know, when your boat really is not, you know,

438
00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:42.880
you know, secure and shaky, you know, like that's what

439
00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:43.720
you're focused on.

440
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And I'm just conscious for people listening, we haven't actually

441
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stated explicitly the sailboat involves in your model. So the

442
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growth part of transcendence or self actualization involves exploration and

443
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then purpose at the top. You have not actually included

444
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self actualization the term self actualization in your sailboat model, Scott,

445
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So was that? I assume that's quite a deliberate choice

446
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to leave out the term self actualization.

447
00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:17.319
Well, I broke down self it's such a it's that

448
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word is such a nebulous word, and I decided to

449
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break it down into more tangible, concrete needs. You know,

450
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self actuation. If we just viewed as growth towards your

451
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the best version of yourself, and what's the most uniquely capable,

452
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your most uniquely capable of contributing to the to the

453
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good society. Well, you know that that's usually a combination

454
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of a spirit of curiosity, exploration, creativity, love for humanity,

455
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and purpose, some sort of pro social purpose or some

456
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sort of strong sense of mission that you have to

457
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make the world a better place. That's really what Masa

458
00:25:56.519 --> 00:25:59.440
was thinking when he was thinking self actualization. And unfortunately

459
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a lot of people or have a misunderstanding of what

460
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mas Well meant by self actualization. They tend to talk

461
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about it like he was very individualistic, and that couldn't

462
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be farther from the truth. He especially during the later

463
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years of his life, he started talking about the transcenders,

464
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which were those who were the self actualizers who really

465
00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:26.160
were able to get outside themselves and fuse with the

466
00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:30.799
b values, the values of pure being, justice, truth, goodness,

467
00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:35.279
meaning things that there were ends in themselves, values rather

468
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:36.119
than means to an end.

469
00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:38.319
I keep saying at the peak, like at the top

470
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:41.720
of the sailboat. But to be clear, you're not about

471
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:45.000
levels right, you're not about well, you can't. Once you've

472
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:47.279
got exploration, then you can go there, and then you

473
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:49.680
can go there. This is just like a whole more

474
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:53.319
holistic kind of approach of looking at all of our

475
00:26:53.559 --> 00:26:57.440
growth needs or all of it is required to achieve

476
00:26:57.440 --> 00:26:59.920
a highest potential saying that.

477
00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:05.359
Yes, our highest potential. I'm not sure what that phrase means, but.

478
00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:08.079
No nother was very poor choice of words, to be honest.

479
00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:10.880
No potential by definition is not an end point, is

480
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:11.680
it right?

481
00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:14.240
But I've I've certainly been guilty of using that phrase

482
00:27:14.279 --> 00:27:17.079
myself so and I've view i've probably used it in

483
00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:20.920
my promotional materials for my book. But if you pushed

484
00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:23.519
me on that and told me what is that, Scott,

485
00:27:23.559 --> 00:27:27.440
I'd be like, I have no idea transcendence? What what

486
00:27:27.559 --> 00:27:31.000
is your transcendent potential that you that's you know and

487
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:33.359
that's that's what are the potential realities you have within

488
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:39.680
yourself for transcending your ego enough where you can you know,

489
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:45.359
connect to the world at large and your purpose is

490
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:48.000
you know, what's good for you is good for society.

491
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:53.039
There's a synergy there, It's synergynistic and and just terms

492
00:27:53.079 --> 00:27:56.640
like selfishness just just don't make sense anymore, you know,

493
00:27:57.039 --> 00:28:00.880
because you're you're you're selfishly he the world. What the

494
00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:01.759
hell does that even mean?

495
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:07.920
And I really, I personally really enjoyed the exploration you

496
00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:09.839
did around purpose, So I talk about that a bit

497
00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:12.559
as well, you know, in terms of just each of

498
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:19.880
us using our own strengths and gifts or interests resources

499
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:23.200
in the service of something that is bigger than ourselves.

500
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:27.240
And for me, that's what it's all about, right exactly.

501
00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:32.559
That's what it's all about, baby saying. I might try

502
00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:35.240
to be inappropriate, but that's what it's all about. I'm

503
00:28:35.240 --> 00:28:37.400
just getting to say that, you know, that's what it's all.

504
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:40.559
That is what But then I know, and I've had

505
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:43.400
this conversation just recently on the podcast too about you

506
00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:45.279
know that people get all in their heads and feel

507
00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:48.039
all this pressure about well, I don't know what my

508
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:50.400
purpose is? How do I how do I work out

509
00:28:50.440 --> 00:28:52.720
what my purpose is? Do you have an answer to

510
00:28:52.759 --> 00:28:53.319
that question?

511
00:28:54.039 --> 00:28:55.079
I mean, what is the question?

512
00:28:55.720 --> 00:28:58.519
Do you have an answer for the people who struggle

513
00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:01.599
with kind of a fine or peeing down or feeling

514
00:29:01.640 --> 00:29:04.240
like they're lacking something because they don't feel that sense

515
00:29:04.279 --> 00:29:07.200
of purpose in life, or they don't feel like they

516
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:09.119
or they feel like they have to be achieving some

517
00:29:09.240 --> 00:29:12.039
grand mission in order to have there go a purpose

518
00:29:12.079 --> 00:29:12.839
in life. Right.

519
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:14.920
Yeah, Usually when they feel that way, they're really just

520
00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:17.559
they're just they haven't filled their bucket up in terms

521
00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:19.480
of meaning. There are lots of things in life that

522
00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:21.480
can bring us meaning a lot of people that are

523
00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:25.039
searching for a grandiose purpose might find that if they

524
00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:27.640
really just have another need that just wants to be fulfilled,

525
00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:32.680
like connection, you know, right, and then they're like suddenly

526
00:29:33.079 --> 00:29:36.359
not so desperate for a grandiose purpose. I think everybody

527
00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:37.960
needs to calm down a little bit on the what's

528
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:40.680
my grandiose purpose? Now I can't now I'm saying that,

529
00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:44.160
which sounds so contradictory considering the whole book I just wrote.

530
00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:48.480
But I think that it's all about the integration of

531
00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:52.559
all these things. Some people just try to just shoot

532
00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:54.160
for the what's my purpose? And you know a lot

533
00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:58.359
of people within violent extremism, you know, they're fulfilling a purpose.

534
00:29:58.519 --> 00:30:02.200
But it's it's very unhealthy, Uh, there is very well,

535
00:30:02.200 --> 00:30:07.079
I should say, it's it's downright harmful, you know, And

536
00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:11.720
so just having a priority, h a hierarchy of values

537
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:15.680
and knowing that hierarchy is is so important. But that's

538
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:17.319
all I mean when I talk about purpose. You know,

539
00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:20.200
the word it's just purpose sounds so grand. I just mean, like,

540
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:22.839
you know what, when you're steering the ship, you know,

541
00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:25.200
what's what's the shore that you see as your vision

542
00:30:25.240 --> 00:30:28.319
of your futures? Where you're going? Where are you going?

543
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:32.920
You know, it's important to have that vision and have

544
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:35.640
that cluarity. I know, I'm sure in your coaching practice

545
00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:38.640
you really help your clients with clarity and a vision.

546
00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:41.480
And that's what I'm talking about. But it doesn't have

547
00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:43.880
to be this like there's only one you have in

548
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:46.279
your whole life. It's like, you know, it's it's we

549
00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:48.960
put as much pressure with finding the one love of

550
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:51.559
your life as well for a marriage. You know, it's

551
00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:54.359
it's it's it's putting a lot of pressure on people.

552
00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:58.279
I think that's just really important to to clarify that.

553
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:02.599
I had your book in my book club group over

554
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:05.279
the last month or so, and you know, one person

555
00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:07.200
was saying, well, we're like this is all well and good,

556
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:09.279
but if you're just working to put food on the table,

557
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:14.359
what's all this gulf about, you know, self actualization? But

558
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:16.799
I mean, I guess do you have an answer for that?

559
00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:19.519
Well? I get that a lot. I get that, but

560
00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:23.839
usually get that from people who you know, there's a

561
00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:25.880
certain type of like social justice person, you know what

562
00:31:25.880 --> 00:31:29.680
I mean, There's a certain type where like that's preoccupies

563
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:32.400
every moment of their life. And fair enough, like, if

564
00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:35.680
that's who you are and that's you know, you're fighting

565
00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:39.920
the good fight. But I think that if you only

566
00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:42.599
see life through that lens, then you never see the

567
00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:46.000
higher possibilities for humans. It's very important to me that

568
00:31:46.039 --> 00:31:49.640
we don't get stuck in the deficiency realm of human motivation.

569
00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:52.319
We can fight for a better world, but we don't

570
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:57.279
get stuck in the deficiency realm, you know, so I

571
00:31:57.640 --> 00:32:01.160
really do. I am a firm believer that need not

572
00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:05.160
wheat until that magical moment that will never arrive when

573
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:08.279
everything is perfect outside of themselves, in order to change

574
00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:11.640
what's within themselves. Why can't you target both simultaneously.

575
00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:13.680
I just love the word that you used before, which

576
00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:17.920
was like an integrating Like it's that integrated approach you know,

577
00:32:18.440 --> 00:32:20.599
to everything, to life and et cetera.

578
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:27.440
You're making me think to live, you set me.

579
00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:33.440
Off, and ultimately, as you've already alluded to in your model,

580
00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:38.400
we have We've got the sailboat, you know, we have exploration, love, purpose,

581
00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:42.799
and ultimately transcending. And you said before transcending the ego,

582
00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:45.480
I want people to go and read the book as

583
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:48.319
you do, to better understand all of these concepts. But

584
00:32:49.079 --> 00:32:51.240
are you able to give us like an inner nutshell

585
00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:55.759
of what your definition is of transcendence? Sure?

586
00:32:55.960 --> 00:32:59.440
I define transcendences. It's an emergent property. It's nothing you

587
00:32:59.559 --> 00:33:02.920
ever just to just achieve. It's not achievement. It's not

588
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:05.240
a level in a video game. It's something that tends

589
00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:07.680
to come along for the ride of working on yourself,

590
00:33:07.720 --> 00:33:09.519
you know, working on it, having come to a deep

591
00:33:09.559 --> 00:33:12.720
integration of your whole self, feeling the holes you can

592
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:16.319
be in the service of realizing the good society. So

593
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:18.839
that's how I define healthy transcendence, and I distinguish that

594
00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:24.480
from unhealthy transcendence. There's a lot of unhealthy transcendence out there.

595
00:33:25.079 --> 00:33:28.359
You know, you'll see people, You'll see so called gurus,

596
00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:31.119
you know, just really abusing their positions of power, and

597
00:33:31.240 --> 00:33:33.759
you know, like they sleep with everyone you know in

598
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:37.440
their you know, yes, not there's anything wrong with sleeping

599
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:39.079
with people, but I'm saying they abuse their power to

600
00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:41.839
do so, and you know, and there's they'll they'll say

601
00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:44.799
I'm transcendent. It's like, no, mother, you need transcendence or

602
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:47.279
you can't curse in your podcast, but no, you know,

603
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:49.559
you're That's not what I'm talking about when I talk

604
00:33:49.599 --> 00:33:52.839
about trans transcendence is not being above everyone else so

605
00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:56.400
that you can have control over others. That's that's a

606
00:33:56.480 --> 00:33:59.759
messed up, messed up I won't curse. That's a messed

607
00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:03.400
up form of transcendence. I viewed transit. I don't know's

608
00:34:03.480 --> 00:34:06.240
you're of a kid friendly show, but I viewed transcendence

609
00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:10.480
as you know, being deeply connected to the rest of humanity,

610
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:14.320
not being above the rest of humanity. There's a difference.

611
00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:19.519
Seeing yourself as part part one that's right, great, a

612
00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:23.119
part of the cosmos, a part of the universe that

613
00:34:23.159 --> 00:34:26.960
we're all connected. Yeah, I really get that correct. In

614
00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:28.960
the back of the book you have included, I just

615
00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:31.079
want to say it is a big book. It's very meaty.

616
00:34:31.079 --> 00:34:33.920
There's a lot of research in it. I really appreciate

617
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:37.960
the the amount of research. I mean, you spent years

618
00:34:37.960 --> 00:34:39.480
on this book, didn't you. I did.

619
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:42.559
I put my heart and soul into it. I worked

620
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:45.039
on it for years. Yeah, I mean I put everything

621
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:47.880
in everything I had into it. Yeah, really did.

622
00:34:48.079 --> 00:34:51.440
And I appreciate that. But I also very much appreciate

623
00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:55.079
that in the back you have some little guides to

624
00:34:55.760 --> 00:34:59.480
some very practical, very not that we want to put

625
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:02.239
this into tick the box step by step formula for

626
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:06.639
to achieve transcendence, but some really practical strategies that people

627
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:09.400
can implement in their life to help them to live

628
00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:13.440
more in this being realm. So I just wanted to

629
00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:15.159
make that comment. It was not a question but for

630
00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:18.960
people listening that there's some really stuff of the book

631
00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:24.239
day to the end. Yeah, but equally a very comprehensive

632
00:35:24.280 --> 00:35:26.519
index for anybody who wants to go and dig into

633
00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:29.320
the research that is of interest. And I also wanted

634
00:35:29.320 --> 00:35:31.559
to say in my book club that each of us

635
00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:36.800
were very drawn to different chapters and different elements of

636
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:40.480
The Sailboat. And I think that's just points to the

637
00:35:40.519 --> 00:35:43.679
individual difference. As you're talking about, Scott, I could really

638
00:35:43.719 --> 00:35:46.440
find myself being immersed in some parts and other parts.

639
00:35:46.519 --> 00:35:48.639
I was a bit like, oh, flick, flick flick, this

640
00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:50.000
doesn't feel like it's relevant.

641
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:53.519
Exactly right, exactly, And I'm not here to judge. I

642
00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:55.960
might here to judge, you know what. You but you

643
00:35:56.000 --> 00:35:57.679
see it play out, don't you see it play out

644
00:35:57.679 --> 00:35:59.480
all over the place. When you when you think in

645
00:35:59.559 --> 00:36:04.280
terms of needs, like you see, let's say Instagram, you

646
00:36:04.280 --> 00:36:07.360
know you'll see the one person who's posting the word

647
00:36:07.480 --> 00:36:09.880
we love is in every single one of their posts,

648
00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:14.519
every single it's always they hit you over the head

649
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:18.280
with posts about love, love, love, love, compassion. And then

650
00:36:18.360 --> 00:36:20.400
but then you look at someone else's Instagram pagient. It's

651
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:22.840
a whole different world over there. You know, someone else's

652
00:36:22.840 --> 00:36:27.320
Instagram pagient. It's like all about like hacking, hackings and

653
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:29.920
status and how do you get your goals? And how

654
00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:32.880
do you level up? How do you And then you

655
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:34.599
look to another person's Instagram and you see, oh, well

656
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:36.719
they're obsessed with a whole different settings. The thing is,

657
00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:40.360
you start seeing this everywhere and you realize, you know,

658
00:36:41.239 --> 00:36:42.239
you see what I'm saying.

659
00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:44.800
Right, Yeah, for sure, I've never thought about it like that,

660
00:36:44.840 --> 00:36:46.559
but yes, absolutely.

661
00:36:46.039 --> 00:36:50.559
People have different preoccupations and usually it's it's about what's

662
00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:53.159
unmet in them. You know. I don't know if people

663
00:36:53.159 --> 00:36:56.159
would admit that, but you know, some of these people

664
00:36:56.159 --> 00:36:59.719
who are the most focused on status and achievement and

665
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:02.719
you know, like you know, they're like, I'm the number

666
00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:05.320
one high performance in the world whatever, they tend to

667
00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:08.760
be the most insecure sometimes with that need. I know

668
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:10.039
that's that's shots fired.

669
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:15.880
Oh I would you know, I see a fair bit

670
00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:17.079
of narcissism in the way.

671
00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:18.800
Look, you know where we can all I should, I

672
00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:20.679
should all say we're all could be guilty of this.

673
00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:23.119
You know, I have my one hundred percent, have my

674
00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:26.519
my narcissistic moments. Sometimes I'm in that mood and I'm

675
00:37:26.559 --> 00:37:29.280
like crushing it. Today I'm cr you know. It's like,

676
00:37:29.320 --> 00:37:32.159
you know, look, it's to be human and I want

677
00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:37.079
us to celebrate our humanity and h and not again

678
00:37:37.159 --> 00:37:40.679
transcends not about being above everyone, but being able to connect.

679
00:37:41.159 --> 00:37:43.559
Yeah to humanity. Scott. I'm very conscious of your time.

680
00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:47.039
I appreciate the time that you've given us today. I

681
00:37:47.079 --> 00:37:49.719
just wanted to thank you again for being on the

682
00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:52.559
show and sharing your thoughts with us. I absolutely love

683
00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:55.239
the book. I'll be talking about it for a long

684
00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:57.760
time to anybody who will listen, So thank you for

685
00:37:57.800 --> 00:37:58.280
being here.

686
00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:01.400
Thank you, You're really delightful. Thanks thanks for inviting.

687
00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:07.760
Me, Thanks for listening to today's episode of Crappy to Happy.

688
00:38:08.119 --> 00:38:12.159
Scott's book, Transcend The New Science of Self Actualization is

689
00:38:12.199 --> 00:38:15.079
an in depth exploration of our human needs and how

690
00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:17.880
they relate to our goals and to living more authentically

691
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:20.840
and on purpose. It's packed full of the most current

692
00:38:20.920 --> 00:38:23.800
research as well as some really interesting history about the

693
00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:26.760
field of psychology. So if that is something of interest

694
00:38:26.760 --> 00:38:29.599
to you, I would really recommend it. I personally plan

695
00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:31.599
to go back and read it again, and that's not

696
00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:34.880
something I normally do. Don't forget. You can join the

697
00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:37.960
online Crappy to Happy community. It's a free Facebook group.

698
00:38:38.199 --> 00:38:41.360
You'll find it by searching Crappy to Happy community on Facebook,

699
00:38:41.639 --> 00:38:43.840
or come and give me a follow on Instagram. I'm

700
00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:47.159
at cast done Underscore XO, and if you're ready to

701
00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:49.159
take your happiness to the next level, you're welcome to

702
00:38:49.239 --> 00:38:53.079
join my paid membership community, Beyond Happy. Find out all

703
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the details at castone dot com. Forward slash Beyond Crappy

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to Happy is presented by CAST done by Daves Vilanski

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Portio production by Darcy Thompson. Listener h