Transcending with Scott Barry Kaufman

0:02 A listener production. Hi, you're listening to Crappy to Happy. I'm your host, cast Doun. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher and author of the Crappy to Happy books. In this series, we talk about all the things that might be making you feel crappy and share tools and tips to help you overcome them. In each episode, I chat with interesting, inspiring, and intelligent people who are experts in their field, and my hope is that you take something away from these conversations that helps you feel a little bit less crappy and more happy. Today's guest is Scott Barry Kaufman, a fellow psychologist and host of the world's leading psychology podcast aptly titled The Psychology Podcast. Scott has published a book called Transcend The New Science of Self Actualization, in which he presents his own reworked model of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Most of us are familiar with the hierarchy that's typically presented as a pyramid, with physiological needs at the bottom, then safety, belonging, esteem, and then the pinnacle of human needs, self actualization. Scott has spent years examining a lot of Abraham Maslow's unpublished work, and found that Maslow himself never considered self actualization or the fulfillment of personal potential to be the ultimate goal, but to use our potential in the service of contributing to the greater good and ultimately to transcend the limits of human experience. Altogether, it's a weighty book, both literally

1:34 and metaphorically, and it's a huge topic to cover in a short podcast interview, but I hope it might pique your curiosity and especially if you're a psychology buff, to encourage you to consider an alternative theory of human needs, motivations, and ultimately what we're all here to do in this lifetime. Here's my conversation with Scott. Scott, thank you so much for being on the Crappy to Happy podcast today. Thanks for having me. You're so enthusiastic in your email. I am enthusiastic all of the time, but I was especially enthusiastic to talk to you because I have just finished reading your book, Transcend the New Science of Self Actualization, and congratulations on the book. Thank you. That means a lot to me.

2:16 I couldn't wait to get you on the podcast to talk about it. So Scott. What you have come up with is a new science of Maslow's theory of self actualization, so his hierarchy of needs. Basically, I think most of us have been exposed to Maslow's original theory, if not a watered down version of it. Oh yeah, you're right. But before we jump in for those who are going, oh yeah, I think I've heard of that, but I'm not really sure, could you just give us a little summary of what his original model was, which we often see as a pyramid or a triangle. The original model that you often will see as a meme with Wi Fi written in at the bottom of a hierarchy of needs or a toilet paper written in the bottom. And then you have your your physiological needs, you have safety needs, you have connection, you have self esteem, and then you go boop. You go all the way up to self actualization. After that, you know, like done, and then you're done, you're self Actually, now, this this original model is a very static model. It's a very it's like it kind of treats life like it's a video game that as though you reach one set of needs and then when you when you reach a certain level of that some voice from above says like congrets even locked the next level, and then you can move on and then you know, life is not like a video game. Life is just not not not like that.

3:41 You know, like life is an experience. It's a constantly dynamic experience. It's a it's like, you know, it's a developmental We can move two steps forward, think we're making a lot of progress. Then we then we follow the way you know, on our butt, and then we have to get up again and keep going again. And you know, it's just content two steps forward, one step back, dynamic, and it's you know, I mean, mas Will never drew a pyramid, So there's that too. He never depicted it that way. He never depicted it that way. I really do think he was a developmental psychologist at HURT. I love in the book too, that you do what you have done is explored all of his work, including a lot of his unpublished work, all the way up until the day he died, and discovered really that the theory that we are all exposed to is, for a start, not what he was necessarily ever saying. But also you have taken a lot of that unpublished work and kind of reformulated it into your own model.

4:45 Is that fair to say, Oh yeah, I got the Kaufman sale boat. You got the Kaufman sale boat. Oh no, I'm patenting that it's big in Australia. It's big in Australia. By the way, for some reason, I am big in Australia more so than in my own country. Is that right? Because Zakistan. Now I'm drinking of the United States right now. But Australia loves the Psychology podcast and positive psychology. I think Australia is just people are more enthusiastic about positive psychology. A lot people in America are pre enthusiastic with positichology. But I just find Australia the rankings, and you know, people, the amount of people that like write me emails saying they're my fans, you know, coming from Australia. I'm like, Okay, well, Australia, how you doing. I see you over there. I see Australia.

5:27 This is why we're so thrilled to have you here. I think you're right. Thank you. Sorry for that little tangent. So your sailboat model is very much more relevant to the twenty first century, I think, and much more in line with what Maslow originally was trying to express. Can you explain the sailboat to us before we dig into the various kind of stages of growth. Yeah, dear the sailboat. And I'm using a lot of people can't see, but I'm feeling in the mood to use lots of hand motions today for some reason to punctuate my points. But no one can see it except you. But the sailboat, you know, has different components to it, and you have the boat of basic needs that have to be met. And if we don't have those basic needs met, we can't really go anywhere. You know, we were so preoccupied with plugging the boat and the holes in the boat and fulfilling and satisfying deficiencies in our soul, you know, like a desperate need to be liked, a desperate need to connect and have some sense of intimacy in our life, a sense of safety. But if we can plug those those holes enough where the boat can actually move, then we can open the sail. And you know, opening the sale allows us to well, not just move, but move in a purposeful direction. That's the point. The point is, ultimately we want to be moving in the sense of this sense of purpose, sense of we want a sense of meaning, exploration, love, you know, in the unknown of the sea. But you know, ways can come

6:57 crashing down on all of us at any time, and then we realize we weren't the only ones in the sea, you know, even though we were moving in our in our own direction. You know, waves can come crashing down. So I think there's various levels which a boat is a better metaphor for. Life, and so in the boat you agree, yes, absolutely, and I think it's I think it more accurately, as you say, represents what life is like. And the and the sailboat can shift in different directions too, and sometimes you have to drop the anchor, and it's it's much more dynamic, I think, and reflective of every individual's personal evolution, which is what it's all about.

7:39 Right, Yes, I think that is what it's all about. And yeah, thanks for thanks for your feedback. For people listening who aren't familiar with Kaufman Sailboat. In the bottom to the base, the base needs characterized well, you have represented them as security needs is the boat and then the growth needs are in the sale and our basic secure needs a safety connection and self esteem. Correct I was very interested that you included attachment security because that's a big interest of mine as a psychologist, is attachment needs across the lifespan. And you've included attachment security as a fundamental safety need, which I think a lot of people theories. I think they just exclude that they do the impact of our fundamental need for emotional security and attachment security and the impact on trauma of so many of us number one, great, I'm glad that you have acknowledged that and included that. Do you think that there are a lot of us, or people generally, who are trying to potentially jump to growth and bypass some of these more basic emotional security needs which are so necessary before we can really move on and fulfill our potential so to speak.

8:58 I mean, it depends what you're most unmet needs are. You know, you have to strive for it. You know a lot of people who have unmet needs. I should say not it's not only depends on what your unmet need is, but how much that matters to you that it's unmet. You might have an unmet need for social status, but you don't care, you know, like that's not what drives you in life. Or some people are you know, obsessed with intimacy and connection love you know, women love that stuff. But. They're obsessed with connection cheeky. But but some people are you know, emotional connection, you know, they love that. And then but then other people are like they it's like speaking a different language other people like I don't even That's not what drives me in my day to day life, you know. So it's just interesting to see. I'm very interested in individual differences, you know, and and how people really differ from each other and what what needs matter then what don't. For a lot of people who want to be in relationships, having a secure attachment is is important certainly for sure. And having a sense of a safe base for for someone that you can go back to and you can explore, but that you feel is there for you in times of need. It's important to have some sense of trust in your relationships, no matter what what, whatever your needs are. But I did want to make the point there there are individual differences and and and sex differences there are there's there's research on

10:30 that on which needs are more important. So so that the counterpart to making fun of women and I can make fun of men now I like making fun of everyone, equally making fun of men who are obsessed with power. They're their thing is power. And you know, on on average, on average, when you look at differences, whereas communion women love community, men you know, on average tend to be much more preoccupied with social status and and rising the top of a hierarchy. And of course you see lots of individual differences in variation with in each gender. You know. Of course, of course there's a lot of women interest and power and a lot of But I do think, you know, discussing individual differences as well as gender differences and different unmet needs can help us to explain and understand a lot of strife we see in the world today.

11:18 I don't know if you've noticed, but there's a lot of discord and I really want to, like, I want to like increase our understanding of each other. I found it really interesting that you made the point in terms of that like whether it's important to your whether it matters to you, just going back to that attachment piece. Obviously, for people who don't understand attachment theory, we're all kind of on a spectrum of more or less anxious in our attachment style, or more or less avoidant. And you made the point very effectively that people who are higher in the avoidant tend to be fine, cope better with life, and are happier generally. But people who are higher on the anxious spectrum struggle. More, Yes, for sure, and they're probably struggle more in general in their life. They probably score high on a personality trait called neuroticism, where they see everything as a threat in their life, and that's just that's no way to live, you know, to see everything as a threat and to be anxious all the time. I mean, you know, you do see some personality traits are correlated with some of these things as well, some early childhood experiences where maybe early in childhood we were signaled in our environment just that you know that we can't trust the environment.

12:30 It's a shame. A lot of people form these beliefs very young, and then they don't change their beliefs. They don't they don't revise them. No, that is so true, And then people go through life feeling like saying, I hear it all the time, you know, but this is just who I am, Like, this is just how I am, and not necessarily having that understanding that these old patterns, or that they've adopted these ways of being in the world, you know, for a good reason, but it's not that they can't be changed. Well, I definitely agree with that, and and there's some instances of these things changing. I was also interested in the self esteem which you put in the bottom of the sailboat. Like in the boat part, you put self esteem as a fundamental safety need, but you also make the distinction between a healthy self esteem and unhealthy self esteem and for instance, narcissism. In all of this, what I was most interested in is you talk about, or you refer to Maslow's distinction between what he called the D realm and the B realm.

13:32 So for people listening, that's more like something that is a deficiency need, as you said at the start of this conversation, or versus the bee, which is like the being, and that is more like the becoming, right, the evolving growth, the growth, the growth realm. I would like to hear you explain it if I've got this correctly. But for example, with self esteem, we all have the same need, but sometimes our pursuit or our pursuits for our goals are driven really from a deficiency perspective as opposed to a growth perspective, and that there's a real that's a distinction to be made within the individual about what is driving our pursuit of whatever goals it is that we're trying to achieve. Like if is it love or esteem? That is it healthy? I want to be the best person I could be? Or is it because I need you to validate me or I need you to love me so that I feel okay in myself.

14:31 Well, I make a distinction in the book between connection, the need for connection and the need for love. And well, also maketually you have all these finely green nerdy distinctions, please bear with me. I distinguish between the need to belong and the need for intimacy. I distinguish between the two. Now, the need for belonging often has tied more to our self esteem, because we want to be liked, We want to be accepted. We can be accepted by groups, by clubs. Yeah, okay, that this. You know, the Malibu Soho club whatever accepted me. They didn't. I mean, that's not the true they didn't accept me. But I'm saying, let's say if they did accept me, then you know, be like I'd be like, oh great, I'm accepted. But do am I intimate with them?

15:12 Like? Is there any relationship, real, true, genuine, authentic relationship. Let's say you know, a religious organization, political organization. You know, a lot of these young kids are sacrificing their lives in political extremism. They belong but they feel a sense of belonging. But do they feel intimacy? Do they feel a sense of relatedness? You know, maybe their self esteem is boosted in a lot of ways, but their real core striving and yearning for intimacy is still unmet. And then you know, you can have the need for love, which is a higher need than everything I just mentioned, which is about love for humanity what Maslow called being love love for the being of others.

16:04 So, Scott, so many of us these days are on this path of personal development, of self improvement, of wanting to achieve our highest potential, to fulfill who you know, be the best person we can be. What do you see as some of the challenges that people face in achieving those things in their own personal growth, Well, they. Often get in their in their own way. You know, they often get their own way because they're they're they're so motivated by deficiency, they're so motivated by this this lack of of what they have as opposed to moving towards what what a bright, hopeful, more purposeful future could look like. A lot of it really is that kind of imagination and allowing your and allowing yourself to tenter that being realm of human existence, you know, the good growth, the growth realm where you aren't so driven by your narcissistic insecurities, you aren't so driven by your profound loneliness and other insecurities and defenses defense mechanisms.

17:08 It requires a fair level of self awareness, though, doesn't it that perhaps people are lacking even in recognizing that the role of those defense mechanisms. And for me, it's all about I mean, I do coaching psychology as well. It's for what purpose? You know, you want to achieve that goal? For what purpose? And I think that's the point you're making, right. Is it to satisfy some deficiency or is it really to fulfill your greatest potential? Are you trying to feel better about yourself? Or sure up you're lacking self esteem or loneliness or something. That's exactly right? So you do coaching yeah, I do. I do coaching and positive psychology. Yeah it's awesome.

17:48 I'man a clinical psychologist as well. But yeah, no, that's big props to you. Much respect. Yeah, you know, you see, and I do coaching too, so we can talk the same we can talk the same language. You know, a lot of clients I noticed just common themes over and over again. I'd love to hear it if you notice the same themes. But you really see, at the heart of it, people just want to be validated for what's good within them. And a lot of them are so harsh and cold to themselves and they don't see it. They don't see it because they're with themselves all the time. You know. Sometimes it takes someone like a coach to be able to do the you know what positive psychologists call strength spotting. I'm a big fan of the strength spotting approach, and I think that that's probably the biggest thing a coach can do to be valuable in a coaching session. And yeah, I'll just stop there because I want to hear some of your thoughts about, like, what are some common themes about what you think is most walking your clients their self actualization.

18:57 Transcendence, yeah, I think one hundred percent that we are typically highly self critical and very much and I understand that as I talk about this as well. We have a brain that is wired to focus on problems and look full lack, and so it takes an intentional effort to shift that perspective onto what is good and what is working well and what is to be appreciated not just in our lives and in our worlds, but also within ourselves. Beautiful. Yeah, there is so much projection going on these days. I don't want to mention specific you know, names of presidents, but just you know, there are various people that will be like like they'll be so bleedantly something like let's say someone's so bliantly racist and then they make a statement like I'm the least racist person on the planet.

19:44 You know, you're projector you're we people are just not seeing anything within themselves, fundamental lack of self insight. I think the other thing that I've really seen recently, and referring back to your model and you're your sailboat, is that we have a fundamental need for belonging. That's universal, that's part of our human condition, but at its extreme or you know, it evolves into this kind of tribalism, this very much them and us mentality, which is what I see. I'm sure you know we all see it happening in the world. You're either with me or you're not with me, and there's no there's no nothing in between.

20:25 You either disagree with me or you agree like like as if, like, why does everyone have to agree with you? People are like, it's a moral it's a moral offense. Now if someone doesn't agree with you, if someone doesn't agree with you, that means that that they're evil. Yeah, there's no room for this, h for sharing, openly, sharing of different perspectives. I think I found that really interesting because I was observing as I was reading your book, I was observing it all around me. I want to go back to your distinction between love as a growth need as distinct from belonging and connection. We all understand, you know, very much. So now there's a lot of so much research about the need for connection. Loneliness kills.

21:06 You know, we've all heard those stats that have come out of some of the research, and the Vic Murphy's new book together as well. How do you distinguish between love big love, growth love, and our personal need for intimacy and connection and relationships. Well I was, I was actually mentioning that a little bit earlier than an earthquake happened interrupted us and now joking, I'm in California. It's a California joke, bad California jok Okay, but no, yeah, So, as I was alluding to earlier, like love, I see it. Oh, thanks, Alexa. Love is this higher form of of of consciousness where we it's more like an attitude of verb as I see it too.

22:00 Then to care about our fellow humans regardless of you know how much we feel like we connect with them, You know how much we feel like like you feel a sense of like, Oh, well, we have the same values, you know. I really do believe you can love people that you don't like, and you can love people who don't connect with You can have a faith in humanity while recognizing the imperfections of humanity. And also I see love as something that can be directed inward or outward. You know, it can be directed inward for self compassion, self love, healthy self love. Now, narcissism is unhealthy self love.

22:42 But there is such a thing as healthy self love. You know where you have self care. Self care, you know, and you also find and I find in my research studies over and over that people who tend to have self care tend to also be more likely to care about others. There's a there's a correlation. Yeah, very interesting. I as you talk about that kind of love for humanity. I do practice mindfulness meditation, have an interest in Buddhist philosophy and psychology, and it reminds me kind of the meta the loving kindness, love for all beings. I think you even mentioned Sharon Salzburg and her work in the book and her concept of real love.

23:23 Yeah, I mean, I'm a big fan of Sharon Salzburg's work and she's going to be my podcast soon. We chatted about her. She's a new book. You know. The sense of this whole idea of love as a freely given gift, which is how Sharon frames the situation, is very much in line with Maslow's notion of be love, love for the being of others, and also just being loving. I feel like as an antidote to to a lot of these problems, a lot of this conflict and a lot of the problems that we're seeing in the world, right now more important than ever, I think, for more people to adopt that kind of being love attitude.

24:07 I think, so, I mean, I know, so you're right. It's tricky. It's tricky, and with people who feel like their fundamental needs are being encroached on through discrimination, through all sorts of forms of oppression, as they see, it's it's harder for them to just get feel love. You know. It's one of those things like it's just like the sailboat. You know, when your boat really is not, you know, you know, secure and shaky, you know, like that's what you're focused on. And I'm just conscious for people listening, we haven't actually stated explicitly the sailboat involves in your model. So the growth part of transcendence or self actualization involves exploration and then purpose at the top. You have not actually included self actualization the term self actualization in your sailboat model, Scott, So was that? I assume that's quite a deliberate choice to leave out the term self actualization.

25:14 Well, I broke down self it's such a it's that word is such a nebulous word, and I decided to break it down into more tangible, concrete needs. You know, self actuation. If we just viewed as growth towards your the best version of yourself, and what's the most uniquely capable, your most uniquely capable of contributing to the to the good society. Well, you know that that's usually a combination of a spirit of curiosity, exploration, creativity, love for humanity, and purpose, some sort of pro social purpose or some sort of strong sense of mission that you have to make the world a better place. That's really what Masa was thinking when he was thinking self actualization. And unfortunately a lot of people or have a misunderstanding of what mas Well meant by self actualization. They tend to talk about it like he was very individualistic, and that couldn't be farther from the truth. He especially during the later years of his life, he started talking about the transcenders, which were those who were the self actualizers who really were able to get outside themselves and fuse with the b values, the values of pure being, justice, truth, goodness, meaning things that there were ends in themselves, values rather than means to an end.

26:36 I keep saying at the peak, like at the top of the sailboat. But to be clear, you're not about levels right, you're not about well, you can't. Once you've got exploration, then you can go there, and then you can go there. This is just like a whole more holistic kind of approach of looking at all of our growth needs or all of it is required to achieve a highest potential saying that. Yes, our highest potential. I'm not sure what that phrase means, but. No nother was very poor choice of words, to be honest. No potential by definition is not an end point, is it right? But I've I've certainly been guilty of using that phrase myself so and I've view i've probably used it in my promotional materials for my book. But if you pushed me on that and told me what is that, Scott, I'd be like, I have no idea transcendence? What what is your transcendent potential that you that's you know and that's that's what are the potential realities you have within yourself for transcending your ego enough where you can you know, connect to the world at large and your purpose is you know, what's good for you is good for society.

27:48 There's a synergy there, It's synergynistic and and just terms like selfishness just just don't make sense anymore, you know, because you're you're you're selfishly he the world. What the hell does that even mean? And I really, I personally really enjoyed the exploration you did around purpose, So I talk about that a bit as well, you know, in terms of just each of us using our own strengths and gifts or interests resources in the service of something that is bigger than ourselves. And for me, that's what it's all about, right exactly. That's what it's all about, baby saying. I might try to be inappropriate, but that's what it's all about. I'm just getting to say that, you know, that's what it's all.

28:37 That is what But then I know, and I've had this conversation just recently on the podcast too about you know that people get all in their heads and feel all this pressure about well, I don't know what my purpose is? How do I how do I work out what my purpose is? Do you have an answer to that question? I mean, what is the question? Do you have an answer for the people who struggle with kind of a fine or peeing down or feeling like they're lacking something because they don't feel that sense of purpose in life, or they don't feel like they or they feel like they have to be achieving some grand mission in order to have there go a purpose in life. Right. Yeah, Usually when they feel that way, they're really just they're just they haven't filled their bucket up in terms of meaning. There are lots of things in life that can bring us meaning a lot of people that are searching for a grandiose purpose might find that if they really just have another need that just wants to be fulfilled, like connection, you know, right, and then they're like suddenly not so desperate for a grandiose purpose. I think everybody needs to calm down a little bit on the what's my grandiose purpose? Now I can't now I'm saying that, which sounds so contradictory considering the whole book I just wrote.

29:44 But I think that it's all about the integration of all these things. Some people just try to just shoot for the what's my purpose? And you know a lot of people within violent extremism, you know, they're fulfilling a purpose. But it's it's very unhealthy, Uh, there is very well, I should say, it's it's downright harmful, you know, And so just having a priority, h a hierarchy of values and knowing that hierarchy is is so important. But that's all I mean when I talk about purpose. You know, the word it's just purpose sounds so grand. I just mean, like, you know what, when you're steering the ship, you know, what's what's the shore that you see as your vision of your futures? Where you're going? Where are you going?

30:28 You know, it's important to have that vision and have that cluarity. I know, I'm sure in your coaching practice you really help your clients with clarity and a vision. And that's what I'm talking about. But it doesn't have to be this like there's only one you have in your whole life. It's like, you know, it's it's we put as much pressure with finding the one love of your life as well for a marriage. You know, it's it's it's it's putting a lot of pressure on people. I think that's just really important to to clarify that. I had your book in my book club group over the last month or so, and you know, one person was saying, well, we're like this is all well and good, but if you're just working to put food on the table, what's all this gulf about, you know, self actualization? But I mean, I guess do you have an answer for that?

31:17 Well? I get that a lot. I get that, but usually get that from people who you know, there's a certain type of like social justice person, you know what I mean, There's a certain type where like that's preoccupies every moment of their life. And fair enough, like, if that's who you are and that's you know, you're fighting the good fight. But I think that if you only see life through that lens, then you never see the higher possibilities for humans. It's very important to me that we don't get stuck in the deficiency realm of human motivation. We can fight for a better world, but we don't get stuck in the deficiency realm, you know, so I really do. I am a firm believer that need not wheat until that magical moment that will never arrive when everything is perfect outside of themselves, in order to change what's within themselves. Why can't you target both simultaneously.

32:12 I just love the word that you used before, which was like an integrating Like it's that integrated approach you know, to everything, to life and et cetera. You're making me think to live, you set me. Off, and ultimately, as you've already alluded to in your model, we have We've got the sailboat, you know, we have exploration, love, purpose, and ultimately transcending. And you said before transcending the ego, I want people to go and read the book as you do, to better understand all of these concepts. But are you able to give us like an inner nutshell of what your definition is of transcendence? Sure?

32:55 I define transcendences. It's an emergent property. It's nothing you ever just to just achieve. It's not achievement. It's not a level in a video game. It's something that tends to come along for the ride of working on yourself, you know, working on it, having come to a deep integration of your whole self, feeling the holes you can be in the service of realizing the good society. So that's how I define healthy transcendence, and I distinguish that from unhealthy transcendence. There's a lot of unhealthy transcendence out there. You know, you'll see people, You'll see so called gurus, you know, just really abusing their positions of power, and you know, like they sleep with everyone you know in their you know, yes, not there's anything wrong with sleeping with people, but I'm saying they abuse their power to do so, and you know, and there's they'll they'll say I'm transcendent. It's like, no, mother, you need transcendence or you can't curse in your podcast, but no, you know, you're That's not what I'm talking about when I talk about trans transcendence is not being above everyone else so that you can have control over others. That's that's a messed up, messed up I won't curse. That's a messed up form of transcendence. I viewed transit. I don't know's you're of a kid friendly show, but I viewed transcendence as you know, being deeply connected to the rest of humanity, not being above the rest of humanity. There's a difference.

34:14 Seeing yourself as part part one that's right, great, a part of the cosmos, a part of the universe that we're all connected. Yeah, I really get that correct. In the back of the book you have included, I just want to say it is a big book. It's very meaty. There's a lot of research in it. I really appreciate the the amount of research. I mean, you spent years on this book, didn't you. I did. I put my heart and soul into it. I worked on it for years. Yeah, I mean I put everything in everything I had into it. Yeah, really did. And I appreciate that. But I also very much appreciate that in the back you have some little guides to some very practical, very not that we want to put this into tick the box step by step formula for to achieve transcendence, but some really practical strategies that people can implement in their life to help them to live more in this being realm. So I just wanted to make that comment. It was not a question but for people listening that there's some really stuff of the book day to the end. Yeah, but equally a very comprehensive index for anybody who wants to go and dig into the research that is of interest. And I also wanted to say in my book club that each of us were very drawn to different chapters and different elements of The Sailboat. And I think that's just points to the individual difference. As you're talking about, Scott, I could really find myself being immersed in some parts and other parts.

35:46 I was a bit like, oh, flick, flick flick, this doesn't feel like it's relevant. Exactly right, exactly, And I'm not here to judge. I might here to judge, you know what. You but you see it play out, don't you see it play out all over the place. When you when you think in terms of needs, like you see, let's say Instagram, you know you'll see the one person who's posting the word we love is in every single one of their posts, every single it's always they hit you over the head with posts about love, love, love, love, compassion. And then but then you look at someone else's Instagram pagient. It's a whole different world over there. You know, someone else's Instagram pagient. It's like all about like hacking, hackings and status and how do you get your goals? And how do you level up? How do you And then you look to another person's Instagram and you see, oh, well they're obsessed with a whole different settings. The thing is, you start seeing this everywhere and you realize, you know, you see what I'm saying.

36:42 Right, Yeah, for sure, I've never thought about it like that, but yes, absolutely. People have different preoccupations and usually it's it's about what's unmet in them. You know. I don't know if people would admit that, but you know, some of these people who are the most focused on status and achievement and you know, like you know, they're like, I'm the number one high performance in the world whatever, they tend to be the most insecure sometimes with that need. I know that's that's shots fired. Oh I would you know, I see a fair bit of narcissism in the way. Look, you know where we can all I should, I should all say we're all could be guilty of this. You know, I have my one hundred percent, have my my narcissistic moments. Sometimes I'm in that mood and I'm like crushing it. Today I'm cr you know. It's like, you know, look, it's to be human and I want us to celebrate our humanity and h and not again transcends not about being above everyone, but being able to connect.

37:41 Yeah to humanity. Scott. I'm very conscious of your time. I appreciate the time that you've given us today. I just wanted to thank you again for being on the show and sharing your thoughts with us. I absolutely love the book. I'll be talking about it for a long time to anybody who will listen, So thank you for being here. Thank you, You're really delightful. Thanks thanks for inviting. Me, Thanks for listening to today's episode of Crappy to Happy. Scott's book, Transcend The New Science of Self Actualization is an in depth exploration of our human needs and how they relate to our goals and to living more authentically and on purpose. It's packed full of the most current research as well as some really interesting history about the field of psychology. So if that is something of interest to you, I would really recommend it. I personally plan to go back and read it again, and that's not something I normally do. Don't forget. You can join the online Crappy to Happy community. It's a free Facebook group.

38:38 You'll find it by searching Crappy to Happy community on Facebook, or come and give me a follow on Instagram. I'm at cast done Underscore XO, and if you're ready to take your happiness to the next level, you're welcome to join my paid membership community, Beyond Happy. Find out all the details at castone dot com. Forward slash Beyond Crappy to Happy is presented by CAST done by Daves Vilanski Portio production by Darcy Thompson. Listener h