July 3, 2023

Understanding Narcissism: the distinction between Grandiose and Vulnerable Narcissism

Understanding Narcissism: the distinction between Grandiose and Vulnerable Narcissism
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Understanding Narcissism: the distinction between Grandiose and Vulnerable Narcissism
Understanding Narcissism: the distinction between Grandiose and Vulnerable Narcissism
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Season 9 Psychology & Neuroscience Relationships

These days it seems like everyone is a Narcissist. The term 'narcissism' is a bit of a buzzword that is used to describe anyone who comes across as a little self absorbed, or 'full of themselves', but is that true? Is everyone a narcissist? And what is the distinction between a narcissist and the rest of us?In this episode, Cass breaks down:

  • the DSM criteria for a diagnosis of Narcissism and how it is outdated
  • the different presentations of Grandiose and Vulnerable Narcissism (or overt and covert narcissism)
  • when a personality trait becomes a personality disorder
  • how to spot a Grandiose or Vulnerable Narcissist in your life and what do do about it


If you're interested in this topic, check out this episode with W. Keith Campbell here.
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
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Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

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Contact Crappy to Happy:

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Transcript
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A listener production. This is Crappy to Happy, and I

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am your host, Castune. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist

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and mindfulness meditation teacher and of course, author of the

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Crappy to Happy books. In this show, I bring you

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conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in

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their field and who have something of value to share

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that will help you feel less crappy and more happy.

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Welcome to another solo episode of Crappy to Happy. Today,

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what I would love to talk to you about is

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the distinction between a grandiose and a vulnerable narcissist, or

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an overt and a covert narcissist. If you've been listening

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to this podcast for a while, you will know that

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I've shared before that when I first started my TikTok account,

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I had no followers, and I thought I'll just make

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some content just to see how the app works. And

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so I decided to do this very topic, what's a

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grandiose narcissist? What's a vulnerable narcissist? Because many people don't

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understand the difference, And within about a week I had

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about fifteen thousand followers on TikTok and I one of

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those videos had over a million views. I have since

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had a narcissism expert on the show to talk about

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what the research says. But I wanted to come back

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to this topic again because I think just in everyday terms,

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in everyday experiences of dealing with narcissists and how they present,

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the research is actually lagging behind, and even the DSM,

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which is the diagnostic manual in the world of psychiatry,

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it is so out of date when it comes to

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how we identify a narcist and their behaviors and how

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we distinguish these different kind of presentations. So disclaimer, I

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am no narcissism expert. However, I have spent some time

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to update myself on where we're at in our understanding

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of narcissism. And this is clearly a topic that many

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people resonate with and relate to many many people have

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got some variation of a narcissist in their life. And

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I guess there's also this kind of idea that, oh,

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my god, these days everybody's a narcissist, Like, was this

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just a term we're using to describe people who are

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a little bit full of themselves? So I thought that

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today I would break down what I know about how

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they present and when a narcissistic trait becomes a personality disorder.

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And I think that's just a key point to make,

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like everybody has narcissistic traits, having a trait does not

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equal having a disorder. When it comes to psychiatric diagnoses

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then or clinical diagnoses, then that has to be done

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by professional and it is really all relates to the

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degree of dysfunction, like how prevalent these behaviors are, how

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much impact they're having on people's life and work and relationships.

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So you know, not everybody's a narcissist just because they've

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got some narcissistic traits. Not every egomaniac is a classic narcissist,

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for example, but it really can help. And this is

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the feedback that I have got over and over again,

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is that people really appreciate kind of knowing some of

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the signs to look out for. So a grandiose narcissist

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otherwise known as a textbook narcissist, and that would largely

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be because the DSM, as I said, their diagnostic criteria

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are all really based around that classic presentation of narcissism

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that we are also familiar with So the classic narcissist

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is boastful, arrogant, egotistical, will stand at the center of

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the room and tell you how amazing they are. I

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can tell you what the DSM are. In fact, I'll

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run through them. But remember, like I said, there's some

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criticism of this because it really needs to be updated

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to accommodate the different kinds of presentations of narcissism. But

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just so that we're all on the same page, the

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DSM criteria for a narcissistic personality disorder basically a pervasive

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pattern of grandiosity in either fantasy or behavior, a need

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for admiration, a lack of empathy that often begins in

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early adulthood and presents in a variety of contexts, as

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indicated by five or more of the following criteria. So

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five or more, I'm going to list nine. This is

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the thing, right, People go, oh, I don't really think

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he's a narcissist because he doesn't do this, and he

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doesn't do that. Five out of the nine need to

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be present for a clinical diagnosis. Nobody is going to

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necessarily present with all nine. Maybe they do. But every

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time I speak to people about narcissism or suggests the

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potentially somebody might be a little marcissistic. They go, oh,

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but no, no, no, no, no, no no, they don't do that,

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and they don't do this, well, five out of nine guys.

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So number one has a grandiose sense of their own

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self importance. They may exaggerate achievements and talents, expect to

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be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements. Number two is

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that they are preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty,

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or ideal love. So this is their internal world, is this.

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They might stay it outside, but it's this mental preoccupation

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with this. It's a wealthy and powerful and ruler world

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and this amazing romance. It's like this fantasy life. They

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believe that they are special and unique and can only

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be understood by, or should associate with, other special, high

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status people. So there's this kind of disdain for anybody

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who they believe is inferior to them. But you'll see

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them just pandering and gravitating towards other people who they

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perceive are at their same level. They have an excessive

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need for admiration. It's what we call narcissistic supply they

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cannot survive without a supply. They need people to validate

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them all the time, admire them, respect them. They have

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a sense of entitlement that is an unreasonable expectation of

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especially favorable treatment. Like the rules don't apply to these people.

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People should automatically comply with all of their expectations. The

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number six is that they can be interpersonally exploitative, so

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they can take advantage of others to achieve their own ends. Oftentimes,

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what I have seen in the past is that they

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will get to this, but they can just expect people

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to just do their bidding, and they will treat you

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like you're the most amazing person. But they will have

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you running around and doing things for them for free,

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like in your own time, and you'll maybe even feel

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like honored to do that for them. But they're just maniqululating.

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They lack empathy. They're often unwilling to recognize or identify

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with the feelings or needs of others. There is a

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real emotional deficit there, often envious or of others, or

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believe that others are envious of them. And number nine

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is arrogant, haughty interesting words, arrogant haughty behaviors or attitudes.

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So that's the nine criteria in the DSM. I thought

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we should just lay that upfront. So how does this

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typically present in every day So these are the people

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who are often charismatic, charming, confident, clever. They hold court

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in any room. People are attracted to them. They may

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be good looking, they may be successful, they will rise

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to the top in their profession because they just exhibit

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and exude this kind of confidence and charisma like people

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want to be around them. They will talk about themselves

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a lot. They're not really that interested. As soon as

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the topic of conversation turns to somebody else, they lose interest.

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They zone out. They can be arrogant, they love power, pleasure,

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profit there. You know, they're just full of themselves. And

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the thing is that because they can be a lot

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of fun and because they can make you feel so

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special if you are talking to them in a room

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with them, people get very drawn into them, like they

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have that kind of appeal about them. These are the

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classic grandiose kind of narcissists. Obviously, there is a dark

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side to this, like there is a reason why there

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is so much out there on the internet about how

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dangerous and damaging they can be because they will flip

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when things are no longer going their way or once

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you are sort of drawn into a relationship with them.

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So I guess the typical things that happen in a relationship,

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for example, and some of the terminology that you might

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have heard out there on the internet is like things

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like love bombing. When they first get into a relationship,

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they will just shower you with gifts and like really

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excessive sort of gestures of affection. They will make you

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feel like you are the most amazing, important, special person.

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They will work out what your interests are, your desires,

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what you're into, and then they will kind of manufacture

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that they have all the same interests and desires and

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goals in life, and oh my god, you must be

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soul mates. And they will make you feel like you're

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soulmates because they will just suddenly have all of the

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same interests on all of the same things out of

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life as you do. They will often want to really

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rush into a commitment. They kind of want to pin

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you down, so they will be very quick to want

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to get engaged or get married or buy a house together.

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It's this like accelerated. Every relationship has a honeymoon phase.

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But this is like an accelerated version of that. Once

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you get into a relationship, or even before you've got

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to the weddings or the engagement stage, like you will

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start to see once they feel settled and confident in

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the relationship, you'll start to see tables kind of turn.

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And many people report that then suddenly the devaluing starts

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to happen. Then they start to kind of undermine your

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sense of your own self confidence, in your own self worth.

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They're a little less interested, they're a little bit contemptuous,

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you know, they diminish you. The other thing about narcissists,

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which is quite classic, is this rage. Like they can

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become really angry, especially in the face of criticism. So

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they don't like people to argue with them. They don't

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like people to talk back to them, or to question

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their authority or their knowledge or their skill, or they

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will give you the stone cold, silent treatment, or they

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will become really angry with you, really diminish you. Again,

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your role in their life is to be an extension

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of them. You are there purely to feed them, to

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feed their ego, to constantly tell them how great they are,

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and they'll be happy as long as you're doing that

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and to look good, to make them look good. So

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they want to present the perfect family, the perfect partner,

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the perfect kids, and as long as you're fulfilling that role,

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they're okay. But it's about understanding that that is all

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really that you mean to them. You are there to

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prop up their public image and they are very, very

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attached to their image and they don't want anything getting

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in the way of that image. So as soon as

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you start to challenge or question them, that starts to

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you know, you're challenging their very sense of self. So

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this is why they do not cope well with that.

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If you begin to express dissatisfaction in the relationship, they

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do this thing called future faking, which is basically where

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in order to keep you in they will promise you

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a whole lot of things in the future. They know

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exactly what you want in this relationship, but they might

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put it off and they make promises and yes, we're

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going to do that, but then they never really take

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the action to make that a reality because they're lying. Really,

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they're just manipulating you. So they might promise you all

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of those things that you've always wanted, then we can

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have those things. They've got no intention of actually making

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good on any of those promises. They promise you what

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you want in the future in order for them to

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get what they want now. That is the strategy of

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the narcissist, the grandiose narcissist. The other thing they will

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do if you are really dissatisfied with the relationship and

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you want to leave, is they do a thing which

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is colloquially known as hoovering. They start to love bomb

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you again. They go back to which is all you've wanted.

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You stay in this relationship because you have memories of

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how amazing it was in the beginning, and how lovely

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it was, and the connection that you had, and so

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they can turn that on in an instant to get

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you back into the fall, to get you back in

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to their world and where they want you to be.

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So hoovering is kind of reeling you back in. The

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other thing that I've seen them do if you really

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are dissatisfied with the relationship and you' and if you're

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thinking of ending it, is that they will suddenly like

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they have never taken responsibility for anything in the entire relationship,

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Like this is the thing which I didn't mention like

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nothing's ever their faults. If you have an argument, it

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is they will never apologize. They are never to blame.

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If it gets to the point where you are really

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over it and there's a likelihood that you might walk

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out of the relationship. This is assuming they have not

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discarded you first, because the discard is another brutal tactic

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of the narcissist. But if you're in there, you're hanging

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in there, and you choose to want to leave, and

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all of the future faking and you know the hoovering

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is not working, then they might suddenly have an epiphany

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and realize that, oh, my god, you are right, and

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they will suddenly take responsibility for all of the things

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that they have never taken responsibility for before. Suddenly, by god,

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you're so right. I can see. This is all me.

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This is my fault. I should I can be different,

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I can work on myself. They will make you all

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of the promises. They will say everything that you want

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to hear in order to keep you in the relationship.

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If that doesn't work, then they will move on to

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you would be nothing without me if you leave this relationship.

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I will make sure you know that you have nothing.

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You will be nothing. You'll amount to nothing. You were

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nothing before you met me, You'll be nothing after you leave.

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You'll never find anybody like me again. You don't know

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how good you've got it. That every all of the

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problems in this relationship are on you. You are the problem.

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You are just too demanding, you're too sensitive, You're too

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weak to this, to that, And good luck finding somebody

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else that will get into the ear of everybody that

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you know and undermine you, to lies about you, really like,

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do their best to tarnish your reputation and to elevate themselves.

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I've seen it happen. I've seen it happen to the

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most beautiful, lovely people. They get into these relationships and

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then it is text book. When I say it's textbook,

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you can predict it. You can set your clock to it,

255
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like you can plan for it. When it starts to happen,

256
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there will be a lot of people around them who

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don't see their narcissistic traits. It baffles me. It honestly

258
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baffles me that these people don't see it. But this

259
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is because they have these two different personas. They have

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what people see behind closed doors, the behavior behind closed doors,

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and then what they present the public image, and that

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can be really the most challenging thing, I think for

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somebody in a relationship with a grandiose, narcissist. Nobody sees it.

264
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They just are out there being their charismatic, confident, lying,

265
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manipulative self, and so it can be really hard to

266
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compete with that or to change anybody's opinion, because everybody

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thinks they're so great, they're so wonderful, and they're also

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kind of dangerous because you know that if you go

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head to head with them that they will stop at

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nothing to destroy you. They they have no empathy, they

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have no scruples. So what I think is that many

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people just stay quiet just they're just happy to be

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out of the relationship and be gone, and they don't

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rock the boat because it's too dangerous to think about

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what might happen if they do. If they get into

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a conflict with this person, even months and years after

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the relationship. Number one, they'll move on straight away. You'll

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be forgotten and gone as soon as you're out the door.

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They'll be moving on to the next a victim. But

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you know, they might send you a text six months later,

281
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eight months later, a year and a half later, how

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you're going checking in just seeing if you still might

283
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take the bait, just seeing if there still might be

284
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a little bit of interest there. It's all ego. It

285
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might be, you know, because oh who is it that

286
00:16:51.159 --> 00:16:54.159
we used to like do the house insurance with? Who

287
00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:58.679
did we used to you know, like something some manufactured

288
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reason to be in touch, just to see if they

289
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can hook you back in. So, obviously the best strategy

290
00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:07.160
with the grandiose narcissist is to cut them off. Many

291
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people don't want to do that. They don't want to

292
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create a conflict. If you've got kids together, it could

293
00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:15.160
be really challenging, obviously, but just engage as little as possible.

294
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They don't change. They don't necessarily present for therapy unless

295
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it's for something else. They are not likely to show

296
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up for therapy and seek treatment because they don't see

297
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a problem. They're not the problem. They're never the problem.

298
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They're never to blame. Everybody else is to blame. And

299
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to be honest, they life's pretty good for the narcissist.

300
00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:38.880
They're usually pretty successful. They've usually got a group of

301
00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:42.240
people around them who admire them and validate them. They

302
00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:46.920
don't really have a need to change necessarily. I'm not

303
00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:50.079
sure if I've forgotten anything. Oh, the gas lighting obviously

304
00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:54.279
is a quind of a classic narcissistic behavior in a relationship.

305
00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:57.680
If there is an argument, then they'll do their best

306
00:17:57.680 --> 00:17:59.200
to make you feel like it's all in your own

307
00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:04.000
head problem. I never said that, that never happened. Put

308
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:07.880
the blame back on you, like completely blame shifting, just

309
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to confuse you, just to cause you to question yourself

310
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and your own recollection and your own experience and your

311
00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:18.759
own reality. It's all just designed to destabilize you to

312
00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:23.160
keep them in control. Sounds awful, doesn't it. And you

313
00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:25.480
know people have said to me, oh, you know, can't

314
00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:27.319
we have some empathy because you know they maybe had

315
00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:29.559
a trouble childhood. Yeah, yeah, yeah, have some empathy from

316
00:18:29.559 --> 00:18:31.440
a distance. You don't need to be in their life

317
00:18:31.880 --> 00:18:35.160
because they're not going to change. They it's unlikely that

318
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they're ever going to change. So that is a classic

319
00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:41.000
grandiose narcissist. And everything that I've just said, perhaps you

320
00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:43.680
have already heard before, which brings me to, well, then

321
00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:56.559
what is a vulnerable narcissist and what is a covert narcissist. Previously,

322
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what we have done is we've used those terms interchangeably,

323
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and I have done this as well. We've referred to

324
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an overt narcissist or a grandiose narcissist as overt, like

325
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it's very in your face kind of it's very external

326
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the presentation, it's very out there, versus covert or vulnerable

327
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narcissism being kind of hidden so you don't see it

328
00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:21.880
so readily. An actual fact, there's some researchers who have

329
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been looking at this and they would argue that these

330
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are actually different things. There is grandiose versus vulnerable, there

331
00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:30.680
is overt versus covert. So I'll talk about that in

332
00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:33.759
a second. The other thing I think is important to

333
00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:37.799
know is that when we distinguish grandiose and vulnerable narcissism,

334
00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:43.000
they oscillate like they will flip from one to the other,

335
00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:45.640
and depending on what the situation that they're in, depending

336
00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:48.119
on what's happening in the relationship with the conversation, they

337
00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:53.240
will swing between the grandiose presentation and the vulnerable presentation.

338
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So yes, they will typically present more of one or

339
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the other. But it's not really true to say that

340
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you are either this or you are that. So the

341
00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:08.640
vulnerable narcissist has the same at its core, They have

342
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the same sense of entitlement. They have the same need

343
00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:16.200
for admiration and validation, the need to kind of for

344
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people to recognize their specialness. What they don't have is

345
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the social skills. They don't have the confidence and the

346
00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:30.880
charm and the charisma. They are much more introverted, They

347
00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:37.200
are much kind of less socially adept, I guess, and

348
00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:42.119
so therefore their narcissism often presents as this kind of

349
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victimized that the victim. It's this entitled kind of resentment.

350
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It's sullen, malcontent, nobody appreciates me. It's this socially awkward, shy,

351
00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:03.559
but deeply kind of resentful and simmering anger underneath the surface,

352
00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:09.440
rather than an outwardly like a narcissistic rage anger that

353
00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:13.200
you might see with the grandiose narcissist, much more underhanded,

354
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:16.519
much more passive aggressive. They don't have the extra version

355
00:21:16.599 --> 00:21:19.440
or the social skills, or the confidence to go head

356
00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:22.119
to head and actually, like like a grandios narcissist will

357
00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:24.160
tell you that you're a piece of shit, whereas a

358
00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:27.920
vulnerable narcissist will be much more backdoor about it. They'll

359
00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:34.640
be much more underhanded, passive, aggressive, undermining, white handing. So

360
00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:38.119
let's just talk about some of how this might present.

361
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:41.400
Victimized entitlement is a term that is often used. They

362
00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:44.759
have a massive chip on their shoulder because they could

363
00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:49.000
have been successful if they had this opportunity or that opportunity,

364
00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:52.839
or you know, they're really resentful and contemptuous of other

365
00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:56.920
people's success and other people's confidence. You know, they will

366
00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:01.839
be judgmental and critical of other people. It's like, well,

367
00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:05.799
I could have been anything if I had had this

368
00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:09.680
or that or that education, or if my parents had money,

369
00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:11.680
or if I'd had that level of support, Like I

370
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:16.359
could have done that too. They are hyper sensitive to criticism.

371
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I think that can probably be said for the grandiose narsists.

372
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So the thing about the grandiose narcist is if you

373
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:22.960
criticize them like it will kind of just roll off,

374
00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:26.640
Like they are so full of themselves that it almost

375
00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:33.680
just it doesn't touch their sides. The vulnerable narcissist so

376
00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:37.759
thin skinned. They can be judgmental of everybody else, but

377
00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:40.359
you judge them, or if they even think that you

378
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:43.519
are judging them, or they perceive that you are criticizing them,

379
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:47.839
and maybe you're not. They take everything as a criticism,

380
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:50.680
and they are so thin skinned. They might come back

381
00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:54.279
with a counter attack, like come back and attack in response,

382
00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:57.200
or just go underground. They might cut you off completely

383
00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:00.440
because they just cannot deal with you if they think

384
00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:02.359
that you don't like them or you have judged them

385
00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:05.920
in some way. They will always know better. They're real

386
00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:10.160
know it alls. They might be taking a course, for example,

387
00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:13.240
and they will say, oh my god, like it's just

388
00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:15.559
so obvious that I know more than the lecturer, like

389
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:17.640
I should I could be teaching that course. I don't

390
00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:19.480
even know why I have to sit in that room.

391
00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:21.920
Same with their boss. They always know better than their boss.

392
00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:24.680
They could run the business better. They've got a criticism

393
00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:27.960
of anybody who they perceive is doing better than them

394
00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:32.400
in the workplace. They are attention seeking in relationships and

395
00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:36.200
even in friendships in the kind of the way it

396
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:39.759
presents is like, oh my god, like just nobody appreciates me.

397
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:44.960
I'm so generous and I'm so kind and I'm just

398
00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:51.839
so just selfless, and nobody appreciates me. Okay, And they've

399
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:56.680
got this kind of malcontent. This I'm so misunderstood. It's

400
00:23:56.839 --> 00:24:00.920
this deep disappointment that the world doesn't revolve around them,

401
00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:04.000
to be honest, like that people's lives are just not

402
00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:08.000
centered on them. And I will never say that, but again,

403
00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:10.680
that's this kind of covert aspect of it. This is

404
00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:13.839
what's happening in the inner world. They may tell you

405
00:24:13.880 --> 00:24:16.559
that they're not judgmental, but I can tell you that

406
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:20.920
on the inside, they're judging your lifestyle, your parenting, how

407
00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:24.359
you spend your money, how your peer, how you dress,

408
00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:28.880
what you do. If you are successful, or you walk

409
00:24:28.920 --> 00:24:32.160
into a room and you seem confident, they will be, oh,

410
00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:36.039
she thinks that she's all that this kind of quiet

411
00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:41.920
smugness in that they feel superior, but also kind of

412
00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:48.319
constantly needing validation. It's this weird, confusing kind of dynamic.

413
00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:51.359
I know people like this, and I have been so

414
00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:54.680
confused by them, like are you are you really that

415
00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:58.519
full of yourself? Or actually, are you actually really deeply insecure?

416
00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:01.240
And it's kind of both. That is the confusing thing

417
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:04.920
about the vulnerable narcissist. They will often be kind of

418
00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:08.640
contemptuous of that. Well, they're jealous, they're very jealous, and

419
00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:11.359
in a new relationship, they might be really contemptuous and

420
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:15.200
not really into your friends. They will be judgy and

421
00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:18.440
critical of your friends, and then because they feel insecure,

422
00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:20.279
if you're spending time with people who are not them,

423
00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:26.200
they will kind of put you down for that behavior, like, oh, well,

424
00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:28.160
am I not enough? Do you like? Is it not

425
00:25:28.279 --> 00:25:31.000
enough to spend time with me? Or they'll just judge

426
00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:34.799
and criticize your friends. So over time, your social circle

427
00:25:34.880 --> 00:25:39.079
can become very small, and really, no matter what you

428
00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:40.799
do or what you do for them, or how much

429
00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:42.599
you give them or how much you support them, they

430
00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:47.640
are just never happy. They're just kind of chronically sullen, miserable,

431
00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:52.759
they're just discontent with life generally. So when it comes

432
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:58.680
to when I say grandiose, vulnerable, overt covert, grandiose is

433
00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:03.960
it's the presentation of being extroverted, confident, the charisma all

434
00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:11.119
of that vulnerable is much more sullen, needy, jealous, resentful, anxious,

435
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:15.480
often anxious and depressed, socially awkward. That's the two different

436
00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:20.599
kind of presentations between grandiose and vulnerable. Overt and covert

437
00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:23.960
refers to overt is the behavior that you see covert

438
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:26.720
is the stuff that you don't see, that's hidden, that's inner.

439
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:30.920
So I guess, you know, I've recently come to understand

440
00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:35.440
that it's not really accurate to just say everything grandiose

441
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:38.680
is overt, everything vulnerable is covert, because whether you are

442
00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:42.359
grandiose or vulnerable narcissist, there's obviously some stuff that you

443
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:45.160
see on the outside which is very overt, and there

444
00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:47.680
is some stuff that is going on on the inside

445
00:26:47.720 --> 00:26:50.400
which you don't see. That's the motivation for the behavior.

446
00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:53.279
That's the thoughts and the feelings and the jealousies and

447
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:56.279
the resentments and the fantasies of power, and the you know,

448
00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:58.720
silently judging people like there's all sorts of stuff that

449
00:26:58.759 --> 00:27:02.200
you don't see whether you're dealing with a covert, a

450
00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:04.680
grandiose or a vulnerable narcissist. So I think that's a

451
00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:07.240
really important distinction. And I think that, you know, as

452
00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:09.559
the science progresses and the research progresses, then we're going

453
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:12.759
to start having more clear definitions about some of these things,

454
00:27:13.519 --> 00:27:15.759
because at the moment, it is very clear that the

455
00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:18.839
definition of the DSM does not capture the full range

456
00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:22.880
of narcissistic presentations. This is new research Back when I

457
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:26.960
was first doing my studies in the late eighties early nineties,

458
00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:30.039
like we didn't understand half as much, and even when

459
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:33.839
I was doing my postgrad we sort of didn't have

460
00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:37.480
this information that we have. Now. It's really progressing and

461
00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:41.480
you see it all over the internet and everybody's a narcissist,

462
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:44.720
But there is still some confusion about these terms. So

463
00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:47.039
that's what I'm trying to kind of clear up and

464
00:27:47.079 --> 00:27:51.279
clarify when it comes to the Big five personality traits.

465
00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:54.359
The Big five is, you know, it's kind of accepted

466
00:27:54.400 --> 00:27:58.319
in psychology that there are five core personality traits that

467
00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:01.960
we all possess to some degree, and how the degree

468
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:04.480
to which we possess all of them kind of makes

469
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:08.920
up our personality and our behaviors, and you know how

470
00:28:08.920 --> 00:28:12.319
we go in social situations and work and relationships, and

471
00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:18.119
those five, if you remember the acronym ocean are openness

472
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:23.000
to experience. I'm not going to go really into dive

473
00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:27.400
into definitions of these, but openness to experience. C is conscientiousness,

474
00:28:28.200 --> 00:28:34.400
he is extraversion, A is agreeableness, and N is neuroticism.

475
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:40.960
So we all possess these traits on a spectrum low

476
00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:44.079
or high, so you know, you can take personality tests

477
00:28:44.119 --> 00:28:46.319
and you can see where you are lower high on

478
00:28:46.359 --> 00:28:51.480
each of these. Typically speaking, all narcissists, whether grandiose or vulnerable,

479
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:56.279
tend to be low on agreeableness. They tend to be

480
00:28:56.359 --> 00:29:00.799
kind of combative. They tend to be they're just not easy, agreeable,

481
00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:04.680
easy to get along with kind of people. There's always

482
00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:11.039
conditions and contingencies and with an agenda. I guess the

483
00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:15.480
distinction is that, whereas grandiose narcissists tend to be high

484
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:19.519
on extraversion, the vulnerable narcissist is not. They don't have

485
00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:24.519
that extraversion. They're much more introverted, much less socially skilled,

486
00:29:24.839 --> 00:29:27.480
which is why they tend to not be openly kind

487
00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:30.200
of conflictual or go into a rage I want to

488
00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:32.720
have an argument. They're much more passive, aggressive, They will

489
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:36.359
much more undermine you, go behind your back. That's the

490
00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:41.039
low extraversion. The vulnerable narcissist tends to be much higher

491
00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:46.079
on neuroticism than the grandiose. So neuroticism means more prone

492
00:29:46.119 --> 00:29:50.599
to emotional instability. They're much more prone to anxiety depression.

493
00:29:50.920 --> 00:29:54.119
If they turn up as therapy, it's not for the narcissism.

494
00:29:54.440 --> 00:29:56.720
It's because they're anxious, or they're socially anxious, or they're

495
00:29:56.720 --> 00:29:59.559
having relationship issues, or they're depressed, and they're a victims.

496
00:29:59.559 --> 00:30:03.359
They are constantly the victim. Everybody is to blame for

497
00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:06.640
their problems. It is all somebody else's fault. You know.

498
00:30:06.680 --> 00:30:11.559
They have just so misunderstood, they're so unappreciated, they're mistreated,

499
00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:15.920
they're undervalued. They're not living the life that they deserve

500
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:18.799
to live and not having the success that they obviously

501
00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:22.599
deserve to have, and it's all somebody else's fault. So

502
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:26.160
that neuroticism, that emotional instability is very characteristic of the

503
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:31.599
vulnerable narcissist. The grandiose narcissist, on the other hand, you know,

504
00:30:31.880 --> 00:30:34.559
they might have some emotional instability, but on the whole,

505
00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:36.640
they can be pretty happy. They can lead pretty happy

506
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:38.720
success for lives. These are the people who are rising

507
00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:43.119
to the top in organizations, in politics. They're celebrities, they're famous,

508
00:30:43.480 --> 00:30:47.720
they're driving fast cars, they're having relationships with you know,

509
00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:52.839
other hot famous people. And so this is why they're

510
00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:55.720
not turning up to therapy usually unless somebody drags them

511
00:30:55.759 --> 00:30:59.119
all because they don't see a problem. I guess what

512
00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:02.240
sometimes people are ask me is like, what if there's

513
00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:04.640
no love bombing, like, and there's none of that charisma

514
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:07.559
like what draws people to the vulnerable narcissist. Sometimes it

515
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:09.440
can be that they you know, they're kind of shy

516
00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:13.799
and humble and sweet in their presentation. Initially they can

517
00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:16.119
still do that kind of like really tuned into you,

518
00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:18.200
but it's just in a much lower level kind of

519
00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:20.920
a way, like a more kind of intense, quiet way.

520
00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:23.720
It's not the big gestures and the big flowers and

521
00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:27.960
taking you on like a romantic, you know, private island holidays,

522
00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:31.400
and it's much more kind of this quiet intensity where

523
00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:34.160
they're so tuned into you, like they're just so want

524
00:31:34.200 --> 00:31:37.559
to know everything about you. Sometimes it's just a case

525
00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:39.559
people feel a little bit sorry. Like if you've got

526
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:42.400
a bit of a rescuer complex, if you like are

527
00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:45.119
the kind of personality that likes to save wounded birds,

528
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:48.359
then you might just fall for some of that kind

529
00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:51.519
of well is me story, that victimhood story, and that

530
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:53.960
might be the thing that draws you into that relationship,

531
00:31:54.359 --> 00:31:56.480
and then you know, soon enough you're just kind of

532
00:31:56.519 --> 00:32:01.319
caught up in this cycle of this drama and this

533
00:32:01.799 --> 00:32:06.319
resentment and this sullenness and sulking and you know, this

534
00:32:06.599 --> 00:32:08.799
never being happy and then starting to feel like it's

535
00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:11.160
your fault that they're never happy, so constantly trying to

536
00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:14.400
make them happy and feeling like you're to blame somehow

537
00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:16.440
because you will be in their mind it will always

538
00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:19.400
be your fault that they're not happy. But you know,

539
00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:22.400
I just really think that more people need to have

540
00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:24.119
a little bit of a sense of how some of

541
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:28.519
these personalities can present, because typically they don't change. And

542
00:32:28.839 --> 00:32:31.519
the other thing that I constantly hear is like, well,

543
00:32:31.559 --> 00:32:35.079
you know, can't They've got a therapy and can't they change? Yeah,

544
00:32:35.240 --> 00:32:38.559
but unlikely, it's unlikely. And the longer that you stay,

545
00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:41.359
the deeper that you're into it. And I understand it's

546
00:32:41.400 --> 00:32:43.799
really challenging. Sometimes you can't. Maybe you've got kids, maybe

547
00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:47.359
they're actually become quite controlling. It can be hard, but

548
00:32:47.799 --> 00:32:52.119
but really know the signs, see the signs a mile away,

549
00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:55.400
see the signs in your friend's partners, and get out

550
00:32:55.440 --> 00:32:59.000
as soon as you can, and don't be drawn into

551
00:32:59.240 --> 00:33:02.480
They are very hatched and very attracted to people who

552
00:33:02.519 --> 00:33:08.160
are considerate, kind, caring, empathetic, people, and that's what keeps

553
00:33:08.200 --> 00:33:10.799
people coming back and wanting to make it work and

554
00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:13.839
fix it and surely we can make this right and

555
00:33:13.880 --> 00:33:16.400
this sense of loyalty to the relationship, and often it

556
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:19.279
is just a lost cause. I don't mean to sound

557
00:33:19.720 --> 00:33:23.839
callous or anything. I fully believe in people's capacity to change,

558
00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:27.440
but when it comes to some of these narcissistic personalities,

559
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:29.519
than it really can be a lost cause. And it

560
00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:32.160
can be just such a waste of time and emotional energy,

561
00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:34.200
and you can waste years of your life and then

562
00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:37.440
take years to recover from some of the narcissistic abuse

563
00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:40.039
that you might experience, not to mention what your kids

564
00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:47.640
might experience along the way. So hope that helps. I

565
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:50.519
am taking a break. I'm going on holidays. This will

566
00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:53.720
be my last solo episode for a little while. I

567
00:33:53.720 --> 00:33:56.240
hope you have enjoyed the solo apps. I will be back,

568
00:33:56.359 --> 00:33:59.519
but going forward, there will continue to be an interview

569
00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:01.799
for you. I will still release an episode every week,

570
00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:04.359
so you will not miss out on any crappy to happy,

571
00:34:04.519 --> 00:34:06.680
But in terms of my solo apps, we're just going

572
00:34:06.759 --> 00:34:08.760
to wrap that up until I come back from leave

573
00:34:08.840 --> 00:34:11.920
at the end of August. I cannot wait to catch

574
00:34:11.960 --> 00:34:14.559
you again when I get back from leave. Look forward

575
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:18.880
to seeing you in the next episode of Crappy to Happy.