Understanding Narcissism: the distinction between Grandiose and Vulnerable Narcissism

0:02 A listener production. This is Crappy to Happy, and I am your host, Castune. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher and of course, author of the Crappy to Happy books. In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field and who have something of value to share that will help you feel less crappy and more happy. Welcome to another solo episode of Crappy to Happy. Today, what I would love to talk to you about is the distinction between a grandiose and a vulnerable narcissist, or an overt and a covert narcissist. If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you will know that I've shared before that when I first started my TikTok account, I had no followers, and I thought I'll just make some content just to see how the app works. And so I decided to do this very topic, what's a grandiose narcissist? What's a vulnerable narcissist? Because many people don't understand the difference, And within about a week I had about fifteen thousand followers on TikTok and I one of those videos had over a million views. I have since had a narcissism expert on the show to talk about what the research says. But I wanted to come back to this topic again because I think just in everyday terms, in everyday experiences of dealing with narcissists and how they present,

1:34 the research is actually lagging behind, and even the DSM, which is the diagnostic manual in the world of psychiatry, it is so out of date when it comes to how we identify a narcist and their behaviors and how we distinguish these different kind of presentations. So disclaimer, I am no narcissism expert. However, I have spent some time to update myself on where we're at in our understanding of narcissism. And this is clearly a topic that many people resonate with and relate to many many people have got some variation of a narcissist in their life. And I guess there's also this kind of idea that, oh, my god, these days everybody's a narcissist, Like, was this just a term we're using to describe people who are a little bit full of themselves? So I thought that today I would break down what I know about how they present and when a narcissistic trait becomes a personality disorder.

2:39 And I think that's just a key point to make, like everybody has narcissistic traits, having a trait does not equal having a disorder. When it comes to psychiatric diagnoses then or clinical diagnoses, then that has to be done by professional and it is really all relates to the degree of dysfunction, like how prevalent these behaviors are, how much impact they're having on people's life and work and relationships. So you know, not everybody's a narcissist just because they've got some narcissistic traits. Not every egomaniac is a classic narcissist, for example, but it really can help. And this is the feedback that I have got over and over again, is that people really appreciate kind of knowing some of the signs to look out for. So a grandiose narcissist otherwise known as a textbook narcissist, and that would largely be because the DSM, as I said, their diagnostic criteria are all really based around that classic presentation of narcissism that we are also familiar with So the classic narcissist is boastful, arrogant, egotistical, will stand at the center of the room and tell you how amazing they are. I can tell you what the DSM are. In fact, I'll run through them. But remember, like I said, there's some criticism of this because it really needs to be updated to accommodate the different kinds of presentations of narcissism. But

4:13 just so that we're all on the same page, the DSM criteria for a narcissistic personality disorder basically a pervasive pattern of grandiosity in either fantasy or behavior, a need for admiration, a lack of empathy that often begins in early adulthood and presents in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five or more of the following criteria. So five or more, I'm going to list nine. This is the thing, right, People go, oh, I don't really think he's a narcissist because he doesn't do this, and he doesn't do that. Five out of the nine need to be present for a clinical diagnosis. Nobody is going to necessarily present with all nine. Maybe they do. But every time I speak to people about narcissism or suggests the potentially somebody might be a little marcissistic. They go, oh, but no, no, no, no, no, no no, they don't do that, and they don't do this, well, five out of nine guys.

5:12 So number one has a grandiose sense of their own self importance. They may exaggerate achievements and talents, expect to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements. Number two is that they are preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love. So this is their internal world, is this. They might stay it outside, but it's this mental preoccupation with this. It's a wealthy and powerful and ruler world and this amazing romance. It's like this fantasy life. They believe that they are special and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special, high status people. So there's this kind of disdain for anybody who they believe is inferior to them. But you'll see them just pandering and gravitating towards other people who they perceive are at their same level. They have an excessive need for admiration. It's what we call narcissistic supply they cannot survive without a supply. They need people to validate them all the time, admire them, respect them. They have a sense of entitlement that is an unreasonable expectation of especially favorable treatment. Like the rules don't apply to these people.

6:27 People should automatically comply with all of their expectations. The number six is that they can be interpersonally exploitative, so they can take advantage of others to achieve their own ends. Oftentimes, what I have seen in the past is that they will get to this, but they can just expect people to just do their bidding, and they will treat you like you're the most amazing person. But they will have you running around and doing things for them for free, like in your own time, and you'll maybe even feel like honored to do that for them. But they're just maniqululating. They lack empathy. They're often unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings or needs of others. There is a real emotional deficit there, often envious or of others, or believe that others are envious of them. And number nine is arrogant, haughty interesting words, arrogant haughty behaviors or attitudes.

7:24 So that's the nine criteria in the DSM. I thought we should just lay that upfront. So how does this typically present in every day So these are the people who are often charismatic, charming, confident, clever. They hold court in any room. People are attracted to them. They may be good looking, they may be successful, they will rise to the top in their profession because they just exhibit and exude this kind of confidence and charisma like people want to be around them. They will talk about themselves a lot. They're not really that interested. As soon as the topic of conversation turns to somebody else, they lose interest.

8:06 They zone out. They can be arrogant, they love power, pleasure, profit there. You know, they're just full of themselves. And the thing is that because they can be a lot of fun and because they can make you feel so special if you are talking to them in a room with them, people get very drawn into them, like they have that kind of appeal about them. These are the classic grandiose kind of narcissists. Obviously, there is a dark side to this, like there is a reason why there is so much out there on the internet about how dangerous and damaging they can be because they will flip when things are no longer going their way or once you are sort of drawn into a relationship with them.

8:51 So I guess the typical things that happen in a relationship, for example, and some of the terminology that you might have heard out there on the internet is like things like love bombing. When they first get into a relationship, they will just shower you with gifts and like really excessive sort of gestures of affection. They will make you feel like you are the most amazing, important, special person. They will work out what your interests are, your desires, what you're into, and then they will kind of manufacture that they have all the same interests and desires and goals in life, and oh my god, you must be soul mates. And they will make you feel like you're soulmates because they will just suddenly have all of the same interests on all of the same things out of life as you do. They will often want to really rush into a commitment. They kind of want to pin you down, so they will be very quick to want to get engaged or get married or buy a house together.

9:49 It's this like accelerated. Every relationship has a honeymoon phase. But this is like an accelerated version of that. Once you get into a relationship, or even before you've got to the weddings or the engagement stage, like you will start to see once they feel settled and confident in the relationship, you'll start to see tables kind of turn. And many people report that then suddenly the devaluing starts to happen. Then they start to kind of undermine your sense of your own self confidence, in your own self worth. They're a little less interested, they're a little bit contemptuous, you know, they diminish you. The other thing about narcissists, which is quite classic, is this rage. Like they can become really angry, especially in the face of criticism. So they don't like people to argue with them. They don't like people to talk back to them, or to question their authority or their knowledge or their skill, or they will give you the stone cold, silent treatment, or they will become really angry with you, really diminish you. Again, your role in their life is to be an extension of them. You are there purely to feed them, to feed their ego, to constantly tell them how great they are, and they'll be happy as long as you're doing that and to look good, to make them look good. So they want to present the perfect family, the perfect partner, the perfect kids, and as long as you're fulfilling that role, they're okay. But it's about understanding that that is all

11:21 really that you mean to them. You are there to prop up their public image and they are very, very attached to their image and they don't want anything getting in the way of that image. So as soon as you start to challenge or question them, that starts to you know, you're challenging their very sense of self. So this is why they do not cope well with that. If you begin to express dissatisfaction in the relationship, they do this thing called future faking, which is basically where in order to keep you in they will promise you a whole lot of things in the future. They know exactly what you want in this relationship, but they might put it off and they make promises and yes, we're going to do that, but then they never really take the action to make that a reality because they're lying. Really, they're just manipulating you. So they might promise you all of those things that you've always wanted, then we can have those things. They've got no intention of actually making good on any of those promises. They promise you what you want in the future in order for them to get what they want now. That is the strategy of the narcissist, the grandiose narcissist. The other thing they will do if you are really dissatisfied with the relationship and you want to leave, is they do a thing which is colloquially known as hoovering. They start to love bomb you again. They go back to which is all you've wanted.

12:45 You stay in this relationship because you have memories of how amazing it was in the beginning, and how lovely it was, and the connection that you had, and so they can turn that on in an instant to get you back into the fall, to get you back in to their world and where they want you to be. So hoovering is kind of reeling you back in. The other thing that I've seen them do if you really are dissatisfied with the relationship and you' and if you're thinking of ending it, is that they will suddenly like they have never taken responsibility for anything in the entire relationship, Like this is the thing which I didn't mention like nothing's ever their faults. If you have an argument, it is they will never apologize. They are never to blame. If it gets to the point where you are really over it and there's a likelihood that you might walk out of the relationship. This is assuming they have not discarded you first, because the discard is another brutal tactic of the narcissist. But if you're in there, you're hanging in there, and you choose to want to leave, and all of the future faking and you know the hoovering is not working, then they might suddenly have an epiphany and realize that, oh, my god, you are right, and they will suddenly take responsibility for all of the things that they have never taken responsibility for before. Suddenly, by god, you're so right. I can see. This is all me.

14:02 This is my fault. I should I can be different, I can work on myself. They will make you all of the promises. They will say everything that you want to hear in order to keep you in the relationship. If that doesn't work, then they will move on to you would be nothing without me if you leave this relationship. I will make sure you know that you have nothing. You will be nothing. You'll amount to nothing. You were nothing before you met me, You'll be nothing after you leave. You'll never find anybody like me again. You don't know how good you've got it. That every all of the problems in this relationship are on you. You are the problem. You are just too demanding, you're too sensitive, You're too weak to this, to that, And good luck finding somebody else that will get into the ear of everybody that you know and undermine you, to lies about you, really like, do their best to tarnish your reputation and to elevate themselves.

14:54 I've seen it happen. I've seen it happen to the most beautiful, lovely people. They get into these relationships and then it is text book. When I say it's textbook, you can predict it. You can set your clock to it, like you can plan for it. When it starts to happen, there will be a lot of people around them who don't see their narcissistic traits. It baffles me. It honestly baffles me that these people don't see it. But this is because they have these two different personas. They have what people see behind closed doors, the behavior behind closed doors, and then what they present the public image, and that can be really the most challenging thing, I think for somebody in a relationship with a grandiose, narcissist. Nobody sees it.

15:35 They just are out there being their charismatic, confident, lying, manipulative self, and so it can be really hard to compete with that or to change anybody's opinion, because everybody thinks they're so great, they're so wonderful, and they're also kind of dangerous because you know that if you go head to head with them that they will stop at nothing to destroy you. They they have no empathy, they have no scruples. So what I think is that many people just stay quiet just they're just happy to be out of the relationship and be gone, and they don't rock the boat because it's too dangerous to think about what might happen if they do. If they get into a conflict with this person, even months and years after the relationship. Number one, they'll move on straight away. You'll be forgotten and gone as soon as you're out the door.

16:28 They'll be moving on to the next a victim. But you know, they might send you a text six months later, eight months later, a year and a half later, how you're going checking in just seeing if you still might take the bait, just seeing if there still might be a little bit of interest there. It's all ego. It might be, you know, because oh who is it that we used to like do the house insurance with? Who did we used to you know, like something some manufactured reason to be in touch, just to see if they can hook you back in. So, obviously the best strategy with the grandiose narcissist is to cut them off. Many people don't want to do that. They don't want to create a conflict. If you've got kids together, it could be really challenging, obviously, but just engage as little as possible.

17:15 They don't change. They don't necessarily present for therapy unless it's for something else. They are not likely to show up for therapy and seek treatment because they don't see a problem. They're not the problem. They're never the problem. They're never to blame. Everybody else is to blame. And to be honest, they life's pretty good for the narcissist. They're usually pretty successful. They've usually got a group of people around them who admire them and validate them. They don't really have a need to change necessarily. I'm not sure if I've forgotten anything. Oh, the gas lighting obviously is a quind of a classic narcissistic behavior in a relationship. If there is an argument, then they'll do their best to make you feel like it's all in your own head problem. I never said that, that never happened. Put the blame back on you, like completely blame shifting, just to confuse you, just to cause you to question yourself and your own recollection and your own experience and your own reality. It's all just designed to destabilize you to keep them in control. Sounds awful, doesn't it. And you know people have said to me, oh, you know, can't we have some empathy because you know they maybe had a trouble childhood. Yeah, yeah, yeah, have some empathy from a distance. You don't need to be in their life because they're not going to change. They it's unlikely that they're ever going to change. So that is a classic grandiose narcissist. And everything that I've just said, perhaps you have already heard before, which brings me to, well, then what is a vulnerable narcissist and what is a covert narcissist. Previously,

18:56 what we have done is we've used those terms interchangeably, and I have done this as well. We've referred to an overt narcissist or a grandiose narcissist as overt, like it's very in your face kind of it's very external the presentation, it's very out there, versus covert or vulnerable narcissism being kind of hidden so you don't see it so readily. An actual fact, there's some researchers who have been looking at this and they would argue that these are actually different things. There is grandiose versus vulnerable, there is overt versus covert. So I'll talk about that in a second. The other thing I think is important to know is that when we distinguish grandiose and vulnerable narcissism, they oscillate like they will flip from one to the other, and depending on what the situation that they're in, depending on what's happening in the relationship with the conversation, they will swing between the grandiose presentation and the vulnerable presentation.

19:53 So yes, they will typically present more of one or the other. But it's not really true to say that you are either this or you are that. So the vulnerable narcissist has the same at its core, They have the same sense of entitlement. They have the same need for admiration and validation, the need to kind of for people to recognize their specialness. What they don't have is the social skills. They don't have the confidence and the charm and the charisma. They are much more introverted, They are much kind of less socially adept, I guess, and so therefore their narcissism often presents as this kind of victimized that the victim. It's this entitled kind of resentment.

20:49 It's sullen, malcontent, nobody appreciates me. It's this socially awkward, shy, but deeply kind of resentful and simmering anger underneath the surface, rather than an outwardly like a narcissistic rage anger that you might see with the grandiose narcissist, much more underhanded, much more passive aggressive. They don't have the extra version or the social skills, or the confidence to go head to head and actually, like like a grandios narcissist will tell you that you're a piece of shit, whereas a vulnerable narcissist will be much more backdoor about it. They'll be much more underhanded, passive, aggressive, undermining, white handing. So let's just talk about some of how this might present.

21:38 Victimized entitlement is a term that is often used. They have a massive chip on their shoulder because they could have been successful if they had this opportunity or that opportunity, or you know, they're really resentful and contemptuous of other people's success and other people's confidence. You know, they will be judgmental and critical of other people. It's like, well, I could have been anything if I had had this or that or that education, or if my parents had money, or if I'd had that level of support, Like I could have done that too. They are hyper sensitive to criticism. I think that can probably be said for the grandiose narsists.

22:19 So the thing about the grandiose narcist is if you criticize them like it will kind of just roll off, Like they are so full of themselves that it almost just it doesn't touch their sides. The vulnerable narcissist so thin skinned. They can be judgmental of everybody else, but you judge them, or if they even think that you are judging them, or they perceive that you are criticizing them, and maybe you're not. They take everything as a criticism, and they are so thin skinned. They might come back with a counter attack, like come back and attack in response, or just go underground. They might cut you off completely because they just cannot deal with you if they think that you don't like them or you have judged them in some way. They will always know better. They're real know it alls. They might be taking a course, for example, and they will say, oh my god, like it's just so obvious that I know more than the lecturer, like I should I could be teaching that course. I don't even know why I have to sit in that room.

23:19 Same with their boss. They always know better than their boss. They could run the business better. They've got a criticism of anybody who they perceive is doing better than them in the workplace. They are attention seeking in relationships and even in friendships in the kind of the way it presents is like, oh my god, like just nobody appreciates me. I'm so generous and I'm so kind and I'm just so just selfless, and nobody appreciates me. Okay, And they've got this kind of malcontent. This I'm so misunderstood. It's this deep disappointment that the world doesn't revolve around them, to be honest, like that people's lives are just not centered on them. And I will never say that, but again, that's this kind of covert aspect of it. This is what's happening in the inner world. They may tell you that they're not judgmental, but I can tell you that on the inside, they're judging your lifestyle, your parenting, how you spend your money, how your peer, how you dress, what you do. If you are successful, or you walk into a room and you seem confident, they will be, oh, she thinks that she's all that this kind of quiet smugness in that they feel superior, but also kind of constantly needing validation. It's this weird, confusing kind of dynamic.

24:48 I know people like this, and I have been so confused by them, like are you are you really that full of yourself? Or actually, are you actually really deeply insecure? And it's kind of both. That is the confusing thing about the vulnerable narcissist. They will often be kind of contemptuous of that. Well, they're jealous, they're very jealous, and in a new relationship, they might be really contemptuous and not really into your friends. They will be judgy and critical of your friends, and then because they feel insecure, if you're spending time with people who are not them, they will kind of put you down for that behavior, like, oh, well, am I not enough? Do you like? Is it not enough to spend time with me? Or they'll just judge and criticize your friends. So over time, your social circle can become very small, and really, no matter what you do or what you do for them, or how much you give them or how much you support them, they are just never happy. They're just kind of chronically sullen, miserable, they're just discontent with life generally. So when it comes to when I say grandiose, vulnerable, overt covert, grandiose is it's the presentation of being extroverted, confident, the charisma all of that vulnerable is much more sullen, needy, jealous, resentful, anxious, often anxious and depressed, socially awkward. That's the two different kind of presentations between grandiose and vulnerable. Overt and covert

26:20 refers to overt is the behavior that you see covert is the stuff that you don't see, that's hidden, that's inner. So I guess, you know, I've recently come to understand that it's not really accurate to just say everything grandiose is overt, everything vulnerable is covert, because whether you are grandiose or vulnerable narcissist, there's obviously some stuff that you see on the outside which is very overt, and there is some stuff that is going on on the inside which you don't see. That's the motivation for the behavior. That's the thoughts and the feelings and the jealousies and the resentments and the fantasies of power, and the you know, silently judging people like there's all sorts of stuff that you don't see whether you're dealing with a covert, a grandiose or a vulnerable narcissist. So I think that's a really important distinction. And I think that, you know, as the science progresses and the research progresses, then we're going to start having more clear definitions about some of these things, because at the moment, it is very clear that the definition of the DSM does not capture the full range of narcissistic presentations. This is new research Back when I was first doing my studies in the late eighties early nineties, like we didn't understand half as much, and even when I was doing my postgrad we sort of didn't have this information that we have. Now. It's really progressing and you see it all over the internet and everybody's a narcissist, But there is still some confusion about these terms. So that's what I'm trying to kind of clear up and clarify when it comes to the Big five personality traits.

27:51 The Big five is, you know, it's kind of accepted in psychology that there are five core personality traits that we all possess to some degree, and how the degree to which we possess all of them kind of makes up our personality and our behaviors, and you know how we go in social situations and work and relationships, and those five, if you remember the acronym ocean are openness to experience. I'm not going to go really into dive into definitions of these, but openness to experience. C is conscientiousness, he is extraversion, A is agreeableness, and N is neuroticism.

28:35 So we all possess these traits on a spectrum low or high, so you know, you can take personality tests and you can see where you are lower high on each of these. Typically speaking, all narcissists, whether grandiose or vulnerable, tend to be low on agreeableness. They tend to be kind of combative. They tend to be they're just not easy, agreeable, easy to get along with kind of people. There's always conditions and contingencies and with an agenda. I guess the distinction is that, whereas grandiose narcissists tend to be high on extraversion, the vulnerable narcissist is not. They don't have that extraversion. They're much more introverted, much less socially skilled, which is why they tend to not be openly kind of conflictual or go into a rage I want to have an argument. They're much more passive, aggressive, They will much more undermine you, go behind your back. That's the low extraversion. The vulnerable narcissist tends to be much higher on neuroticism than the grandiose. So neuroticism means more prone to emotional instability. They're much more prone to anxiety depression.

29:50 If they turn up as therapy, it's not for the narcissism. It's because they're anxious, or they're socially anxious, or they're having relationship issues, or they're depressed, and they're a victims. They are constantly the victim. Everybody is to blame for their problems. It is all somebody else's fault. You know. They have just so misunderstood, they're so unappreciated, they're mistreated, they're undervalued. They're not living the life that they deserve to live and not having the success that they obviously deserve to have, and it's all somebody else's fault. So that neuroticism, that emotional instability is very characteristic of the vulnerable narcissist. The grandiose narcissist, on the other hand, you know, they might have some emotional instability, but on the whole, they can be pretty happy. They can lead pretty happy success for lives. These are the people who are rising to the top in organizations, in politics. They're celebrities, they're famous, they're driving fast cars, they're having relationships with you know, other hot famous people. And so this is why they're not turning up to therapy usually unless somebody drags them all because they don't see a problem. I guess what sometimes people are ask me is like, what if there's no love bombing, like, and there's none of that charisma like what draws people to the vulnerable narcissist. Sometimes it can be that they you know, they're kind of shy and humble and sweet in their presentation. Initially they can still do that kind of like really tuned into you, but it's just in a much lower level kind of a way, like a more kind of intense, quiet way.

31:21 It's not the big gestures and the big flowers and taking you on like a romantic, you know, private island holidays, and it's much more kind of this quiet intensity where they're so tuned into you, like they're just so want to know everything about you. Sometimes it's just a case people feel a little bit sorry. Like if you've got a bit of a rescuer complex, if you like are the kind of personality that likes to save wounded birds, then you might just fall for some of that kind of well is me story, that victimhood story, and that might be the thing that draws you into that relationship, and then you know, soon enough you're just kind of caught up in this cycle of this drama and this resentment and this sullenness and sulking and you know, this never being happy and then starting to feel like it's your fault that they're never happy, so constantly trying to make them happy and feeling like you're to blame somehow because you will be in their mind it will always be your fault that they're not happy. But you know, I just really think that more people need to have a little bit of a sense of how some of these personalities can present, because typically they don't change. And the other thing that I constantly hear is like, well, you know, can't They've got a therapy and can't they change? Yeah, but unlikely, it's unlikely. And the longer that you stay, the deeper that you're into it. And I understand it's really challenging. Sometimes you can't. Maybe you've got kids, maybe they're actually become quite controlling. It can be hard, but but really know the signs, see the signs a mile away,

32:52 see the signs in your friend's partners, and get out as soon as you can, and don't be drawn into They are very hatched and very attracted to people who are considerate, kind, caring, empathetic, people, and that's what keeps people coming back and wanting to make it work and fix it and surely we can make this right and this sense of loyalty to the relationship, and often it is just a lost cause. I don't mean to sound callous or anything. I fully believe in people's capacity to change, but when it comes to some of these narcissistic personalities, than it really can be a lost cause. And it can be just such a waste of time and emotional energy, and you can waste years of your life and then take years to recover from some of the narcissistic abuse that you might experience, not to mention what your kids might experience along the way. So hope that helps. I am taking a break. I'm going on holidays. This will be my last solo episode for a little while. I hope you have enjoyed the solo apps. I will be back, but going forward, there will continue to be an interview for you. I will still release an episode every week, so you will not miss out on any crappy to happy, But in terms of my solo apps, we're just going to wrap that up until I come back from leave at the end of August. I cannot wait to catch you again when I get back from leave. Look forward to seeing you in the next episode of Crappy to Happy.