Unlocking Happiness at Work with Jennifer Moss

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So you talked really nicely behind people's bags. And they

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did this research and found that in these organizations where

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they practiced positive gossip, that onboarding was exponentially increased in

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the time people felt comfortable in their roles, and a

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big reason for that was this great increase in innovation

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and psychological psychological safety was people believed, which you know,

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perception is reality. People perceived that people were saying nice

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things about them behind their bag.

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Welcome back to Crappy Tom Happy today. I'm very excited

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to be heading into the studio to have an in

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person interview with Jennifer Moss Jen hailes from Canada. I'm

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very fortunate that she's visiting London and has made the

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time to see me. Jen is a workplace well being strategist.

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She is passionate about helping organizations to cultivate thriving workplaces.

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She explores the data to work out what makes people

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happy at work and why that matters not just for

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the individuals, but for the organization as well. Jen's got

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some pretty impressive credentials. I feel like I should just

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run through a few of them for you. She consults

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with Fortune five hundred companies around the world about their

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organizational culture.

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She's featured in.

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Media outlets around the world, rights for the Harvard Business Review.

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She runs around doing keynotes around the world. I mean,

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everybody wants her insights into how to cultivate thriving workplaces.

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Now.

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Jen's written several books, and ten years ago she wrote

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one called Unlocking Happiness at Work. As we all know,

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a lot has changed in the last ten years. We've

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had the pandemic, we've moved to this whole remote hybrid

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working situation, We've had the introduction of AI. I mean,

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the shifts have been profound. So therefore, on the tenth

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anniversary of the release of that book, Jen has fully

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revised and updated it. So I was fortunate enough to

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receive a copy of that book. Absolutely loved it, of course,

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because it is all of the stuff that I am

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also really passionate about. While this is the tenth anniversary

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of Unlocking Happiness at Work. In the meantime, she also

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wrote The Burnout Epidemic in twenty twenty one, and just

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this year she wrote a book called Why Are We Here?

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So if these are topics that are of interest to you,

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highly recommend that you go and check them. Out. I'll

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put the links in the show notes, but for now,

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let's go talk to Jen about what makes people happy

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at work. Jennifer, Welcome to the Crappy to Happy podcast

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and welcome to London.

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I'm so happy to be here, not just because it's London,

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but it's so nice to sit and I have a

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feace to face conversation with you.

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This is great in person.

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Yeah, that has been my focus this year, and it's

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so interesting that you and I are going to talk

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about happiness at work. Because, as somebody who's been who

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works for myself and works from home, and I've been

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doing this podcast from home since Covid, I this year

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have just said no more. I'm just desperate to get

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into the room with people. So I'm so interested to

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have a conversation with you about you know, who else

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is feeling like this and what's going on in terms

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of happiness at work.

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I love that. And you know, when just before we

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started talking, I was saying how just sick and tired

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I am of zoom calls and how exhausted I get

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by them, and how fueled I get. When I'm actually

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in a room with people, It's like a completely different

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sense of connection and energy in the space, and I

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think a lot of people are missing that too.

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Yeah, So, when it comes to happiness at work, such

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an important topic because obviously work is such a huge

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part of our life. We spend so many hours at work.

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It's such a part of our identity. Even so, straight

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off the bat, while there's going to be differences for

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different individuals and different demographics, what is universally true, like

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what are the fundamentals that contribute to people being happier

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at work generally?

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So, you know, I started Unlucky Happiness at Work ten

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years ago, and you know, it was to really understand

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psychological fitness. There was a lot there wasn't a lot

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that people were talking about really at that point around

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happiness at work. There was some I mean Sean Aker

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and some others that were just really prolific there, but

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the idea of telling a CFO that they should invest

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in happiness strategy was like just people were rolling their

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eyes at us. And I mean, despite all the great

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data that says this is good for business outcomes. And

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you know, through that process and then writing the burnout Epidemic,

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which was essentially you know, I became the unhappiness Expert

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after being the happiness expert and then writing why are

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we here, which is another kind of I think similar

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to this book. It's kind of like a what can

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we do with all this information? The how? But what

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I think is fundamental is understanding that for people to

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really have high levels of happy and well being at work,

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we need to make sure that we have the hygiene right.

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We have.

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The stuff that people should not even know is happening

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behind the scenes, that they're just being paid fairly, that

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you know, that they're psychologically safe, that they have their

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needs being met, that they're not being discriminated against, you

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know that we have these basic fundamental needs sort of

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like the maslocks with kind of looking at it, not

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as a pyramid. We know that now, but just in

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what are these fundamental needs? And if we've got that going,

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if we have that right in an organization, then people

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have the opportunity to invest in self care, to you know,

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engage with their community, to feel like that they matter

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at work, to be optimized. And I think that that

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is the thing that I've really learned in the last

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year ten years since I started this book to now

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is that it isn't just about those downstream tactics to

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make people happy, like more yoga and you know, and

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right and kind of these like band aid solutions. That

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it really is this foundational piece and then we build

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on that.

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Yeah. Really interesting.

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So when you say downstream, that's you know, you're talking

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about the individual taking responsibility for being happier that whole

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choose happiness, which was a title of a chapter in

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a book that.

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I wrote at one point too.

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But in actual fact, there are all of these environmental factors.

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There's the culture and the support systems around people that

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are a huge part of whether or not they're going

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to feel comfortable and safe enough to then be able

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to thrive.

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You nailed it.

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I mean I did write whose Happiness? That was a theme.

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You know, it was always I think even then, I

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had the T shirt good Vibes Only Happiness is a journey,

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and you know, all of them names, all the memes

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that became so popular, which also created toxic positivity and

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people felt like that they couldn't say I'm not okay.

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And so in the book you would have seen I

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sort of apologize for whatever part I played in that,

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because at the time it did make sense. It was

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about psychological fitness, and at the time it was also

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self care. I mean that was even a brand new topic. Yeah,

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fifteen years ago, twelve years ago when we started the

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company and then wrote the book. So there's been an

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evolution in that thinking to understand that we can't choose

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happiness all the time, and that's a privilege and a

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lot of you know, in a lot of places, choosing

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happiness means that you have all of those other foundational stuff,

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even just social support that you have. You know, you

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have the ability to buy food and pay rent and

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you know those simple things that can really be devastating

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to our happiness and make it very difficult to choose it. So,

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you know, in this new you know, conversation that we're having,

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it really is about how do we think about happiness

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in a much more nuanced and complex way. Maybe it

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shouldn't even be called happiness, you know, like, you know,

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what does that look like? I still like the words,

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So I'm going to keep it.

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I do too, and everybody get everybody gets it right,

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I just go Look, it's just everybody understands what you

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mean as soon as you say happy. So I'm going

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to keep using it. Whether you like it or not,

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that's theage. Yes, we get what that means.

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Yes, And yeah, there's lots of people that are saying

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we have to change I don't think we have to

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change the word. I think we need to give people

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a better understanding of what a definition. Yeah.

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Now, when you were talking and you were talking about

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psychological safety and you know, getting paid well and all

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of those fundamentals, it occurred to me that what you're

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talking about is not happiness at work. You're talking about

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happiness generally like that we have.

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A we are a whole person.

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Yes, And essentially what you're saying is the stuff that's

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going to make because support our well being broadly is

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the same stuff that's going to support us at work

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that is necessary in the workplace. And are you saying

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that we or organizations haven't been getting this right?

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No, I mean, and it's gotten worse. And I've found

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in the pandemic there was this moment And unfortunately, in

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this may sound cynical from a person that you know

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tries to talk positively and optimistically, but I think you

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have to have a healthy skepticism. But I do feel

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like that in the pandemic because it was a bottom

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line issue because we were losing so many people and

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there was so much mobility, and there was this great

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resignation and we saw a lot of organizations say, okay,

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well we got to do what we have to do

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to keep these people retained. And it worked, you know,

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the investment in well being, the investment in diversity and

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equity and inclusion, this ability to you support autonomy all

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of a sudden when we you know, didn't have agency

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before it was flexibility. There was so many things we

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were doing right when it comes to happiness at work.

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And then as soon as there was less mobility and

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as soon as it was more in you know, employers

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or organizations their control, they started to claw back. And

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so we're hearing things like the Great Betrayal because it

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was an investment in people's happiness and well being and

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that was working. But you realize that for organizations, if

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it's not a bottom line issue, it gets it gets tossed. Yeah,

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and that's really unfortunate. It was an unfortunate realization that

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we saw that pendulum swing and then now it's slung back. Yeah.

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I really wanted to talk to you about that that

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during the pandemic have so many questions about that.

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So first up, it occurs.

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To me that during the pandemic and the shift to

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everybody having to be at home and doing all of

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the zoom calls and being taking the calls in their

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lounge room, it seemed to have the effect of really

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humanizing people. Whatever role you had in the organization, from

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the CEO down to whoever the lowest level admin assistant.

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You know, when people were all having to dial in

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and their kids are in the background or their pets

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in the room, it seemed to have this effect of

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kind of leveling and humanizing people. Have you seen that

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kind of continue in terms of that just people being

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more comfortable to just kind of be themselves in show

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up for themselves, or be more honest about what's going

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on at home. Has it helped to shift our perspective

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or our expectations of people in a way.

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I do think that there has been more conversation even

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just about the terms. I mean, we've normalized the term

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burnout and that has become ubiquitous. And you know, I

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was writing The Burnout Epidemic before the pandemic and then

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it hit. Wow, had to rewrite a lot of it

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and so it was fortunately for the book, it was

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you know, it was in the same kind of realm

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as unprecedented and you're on mute. You know, burnout became

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just as much of an overused term. And so in

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a way, when we do that, when we just kind

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of pound people with that term, there's more conversations about it,

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and that is good. There's more measurement that I'm seeing

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in organizations around stress so that we can improve well being.

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There's an understanding that it does work. I mean, there's

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they saw it, they saw it work, and it is

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something that there's way more investment in it than there

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was before. But I do think that there is still

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so much stigma. There's what we found in our research

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is that of the people that were extremely or highly

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burned out, sixty seven percent of them could not talk

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about their mental health at work. Oh really, it correlates,

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and this idea of not being able to actually talk

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about it is still very ever present and we're still

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seeing you know, that Mercer Trends report just came out

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that eighty one percent of the global workforce is still

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at risk of burnout. So really, so we haven't done

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much about it, but we are having more conversations about it.

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I think that a lot of leaders just have a

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really hard time understanding how to operationalize a happiness strategy,

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and so instead we get like, okay, let's just you know,

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put money to things that aren't working, and unfortunately that's

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leading to a lot of people still feeling uncared for.

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Yeah.

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So so talking about the burnout and just going back

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to the remote you know, the pandemic and the impact

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that that has had and the shift in the way

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that we work. You know, I work for myself and

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I went from home, so I'm not really in that space.

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But from what I observe, the ider remote working gives

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people flexibility. They don't have to commute and they can.

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It gives them a better life balance. On the downside,

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they're not necessarily getting the regular social interaction and the

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incidental kind of conversations. So are you saying that if

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the net sum of all of that is that people

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are actually more stressed, like, it hasn't actually been a

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positive change that they have. This hybrid system is pretty

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widely accepted now and that people can you know, not

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have to be in the office.

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I think what we're seeing is the data is that

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hybrid has become sort of a normal status. We're finding

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even if we just look at this purely capitalists you

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know analysis. This is research out of Stanford from Nick Bloom,

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and he looks at kind of what is the ideal

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situation for this hybrid remote conversation fully in the office,

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and what he's found from the data is that hybrid

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is the most ideal. That fully remote is not, you know,

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the best from a financial standpoint. If he's an economist,

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so he's looking at it from that standpoint. Fully in

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person is actually not that, you know, that's it's not

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the best way from a purely revenue generating growth competitiveness standpoint.

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And his research, along with other research, looked at the

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sort of optimal kind of I guess model, and it's

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two days in the office, three days out of the office,

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and two days in the office should be more about

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moments that matter. It should be collaborative, it should be

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work that is focused on team building. It's supposed to

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be onboarding, and you utilize the time in the office

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to really be with one another another, have fun even

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just you know, like have lunch together and do that

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kind of work. And so it's rethinking what the office

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looks like. This is ideal, and they have found that

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this kind of model three days out, two days in

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increases productivity by twelve percent. It also retains your highest performers.

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It also is inclusive of women. There's just all these

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benefits to it. And so I think the real problem

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is that we're sending people back in the office and

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just replicating what it would be like from home. Right

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you're just you know, on zoom all day and then

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but you're in the office with the community. It's just terrible.

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So that's what we're getting wrong.

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And probably not even having your own disk to see that,

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because right, you know, I have sold half of the building.

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It really is so weird that we wouldn't think that

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you have the biggest disruption. I think that the pandemic

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was the biggest workforce disruption, even more than AI, even

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more than email, even more than.

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The first office. Like, this is a massive disruption. This

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is not the future of work. This is the multiverse

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of work. Where Like we jumped a timeline, and so

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the idea that we shouldn't kind of configure a new strategy,

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that we should just kind of pull in the old

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way of working. It just feels so it just really

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feels naive to me.

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And what people are doing is that what organizations are

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basically doing, they're not really on board with this optimal way.

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We're seeing more with hybrid that it is three days,

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and then there's a desire to kind of inch up

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to four days, but you're still considered hybrid because you're

315
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four days. A lot of the financial institutions we're seeing

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now trying to get everyone back. You see Amazon pulling

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everyone back to five days, and all the data says

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that it actually is reducing productivity and you lose people,

319
00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:53.839
you lose your best people, unfortunately, so then they go

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to places that offer flexibility, and then it decreases morale.

321
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And the thing is if you don't actually use those

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two days, if you're in the optimal situation where you're

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still replicating the home experience, what they're finding is people

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are less social because they're so time starved. And when

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you're feeling this level of time starvation, the last thing

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you want to do is meet for lunch, because that

327
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means now you have to finish your work and your

328
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pajamas at eleven o'clock at night, or you know, you

329
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don't want to engage in this after work because you know,

330
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you haven't even been able to read either, go pee

331
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during the day because you're in so many meetings that

332
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I think is really leading to this gap in our relationships,

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which is foundational to happiness. We don't have time for

334
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each other. We don't have anyone in leadership saying I'm

335
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going to you know, give you time to do this,

336
00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:56.000
and that is creating this real disconnect. There are companies

337
00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:58.039
that are doing a good job of it, though, so

338
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it's not just it's it's novel, but it is there

339
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and I've seen it.

340
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You just said about the social relationships that are so important,

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and I was just thinking that again with the remote working,

342
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and the one of the objections that I've heard is,

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you know, the like the lack of trust in people,

344
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this idea that if people are at home that they

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won't be that they won't be working. And not just

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that that is I mean, you can tell me whether

347
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that is incorrect, that they're not working, but the impact

348
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of the lack of trust in people's level of satisfaction

349
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with work.

350
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This is so frustrating to me. The more that we

351
00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:44.839
even increase this bus wear monitoring of people and how

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they work, and looking at key strokes and even people

353
00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:51.680
that are coming key strokes, key strokes or video there's

354
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really sure that they're sitting at their desk. There's things too.

355
00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:58.039
It's you know, this whole idea of past keys, and

356
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they're now trying to kind of clamp down on people

357
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:06.119
just badging in but then not actually staying, and so

358
00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:08.640
now they're monitoring where they are in the building. I mean,

359
00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:12.559
it's just there's so many things that I don't understand

360
00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:15.920
why we're so afraid that people aren't getting their work done.

361
00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:18.720
And the thing is is that's not an individual problem.

362
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This is a leadership problem. Have you set the right

363
00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:24.680
goals for that person? Why are you measuring hours? Why

364
00:20:24.680 --> 00:20:27.799
are you measuring the physical presence of people and not

365
00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:30.640
looking at what are the objectives for that person to

366
00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:33.880
complete in the day? And who cares how they get there.

367
00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:36.519
Do you have a really good relationship with your manager

368
00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:39.039
and they have good you know, you have good conversations

369
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at the end of the week to make sure that

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you're meeting those objectives. That should be the way that

371
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we empower people, and yet we instead we monitor them

372
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and we make them feel like a child. And that

373
00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:54.759
is one of the things that I heard from a

374
00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:57.400
senior executive and I wish I could remember her name,

375
00:20:57.440 --> 00:20:59.960
but of course it's you know, this great female leader

376
00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:04.200
her and she says, you know, we hired adults to

377
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:08.079
come into work. Why are we cheat treating them like children.

378
00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:10.880
It's not like coming to school. You know, we don't

379
00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:13.440
need to take attendance and you know, make sure that

380
00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:17.200
we have these breaks for lunch and recess. It really

381
00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:20.839
is that they are grown ups, a lot of them

382
00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:25.799
with you know, great education or really specialized skills, and

383
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:29.519
we're afraid that they're not working. That is, we're just

384
00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:33.359
not doing a good job of managing goal setting and

385
00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:35.119
goal achievement exactly.

386
00:21:35.799 --> 00:21:38.240
I need to ask you then, do you see or

387
00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:41.880
does the research bear out a generational difference in the

388
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:45.960
attitudes that people have and actually further to that, like

389
00:21:46.039 --> 00:21:49.240
and just in drivers, like what makes people happy at work?

390
00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:51.599
What are the generational There's a lot of questions in there,

391
00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:55.519
but what's the difference gen x gen Z and you.

392
00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:57.720
Know that you know, the U curve of happiness in

393
00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:00.640
people's lives, right, and that sort of shift, which is

394
00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:03.200
really interesting because it used to be young, people were happy,

395
00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:05.319
and then you had a dip in your midlife, and

396
00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:08.480
then seventy is the happiest you've ever been in your life.

397
00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:11.720
I love that you have grand You have grandkids so

398
00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:15.640
you can send them home. You aren't working anymore, You're

399
00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:18.960
still very active, right, so you've got this great quality

400
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:21.960
of life. So I always share this this slide with people,

401
00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:24.160
and I'm like, I'm sorry, exers, you're in the trough

402
00:22:24.279 --> 00:22:28.079
of despair. You are like the least happiest. But what

403
00:22:28.519 --> 00:22:31.920
is so fascinating, and you see this at work, is

404
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:35.960
we're seeing kind of this all groups feeling frustrated and

405
00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:38.559
feeling like they're so different from each other, and yet

406
00:22:38.599 --> 00:22:41.799
they all want the same thing. And I keep seeing

407
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:44.799
and I've looked at metastas and cross reference data, and

408
00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:49.039
you ask about flexibility, it's like a marginal difference between

409
00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:52.599
how much a gram you know, like someone in their sixties,

410
00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:56.440
because what we're finding is that people in their sixties

411
00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:01.519
right now and their grandparents one in four are primary caregivers.

412
00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:05.440
So this idea that you know that they wouldn't want

413
00:23:05.480 --> 00:23:08.839
graternity benefits. You know, they are talking about these things

414
00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:11.920
that which are starting to come into to play because

415
00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:14.799
we're wanting to make sure we're holding onto our mature workers.

416
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:17.079
I know this is a big thing in the UK

417
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:22.240
right now, is this, you know, keeping mature workers in

418
00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:25.759
the workforce. And there's all these financial incentives that are

419
00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:28.359
being thrown at them, but they're actually they come from

420
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:31.480
a generation of saving and they're all saying, I don't

421
00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:35.119
really need to work. I've set myself up, I own

422
00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:39.160
my home, I've made this plan, and so the financial

423
00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:43.920
incentives aren't working. They are saying, They're like, I'm out

424
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:46.960
of here. Why would I want to be in this workforce?

425
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:49.839
They say, I don't feel like I belong. This is

426
00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:54.319
another really interesting data point where when they surveyed those

427
00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:59.119
that were taking early retirement by choice, they ask them,

428
00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:01.240
you know, like what would made you say stay? And

429
00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:03.319
forty percent of them said that they would have stayed

430
00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:06.759
if they had more continuing education, that they were supported

431
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:10.000
in learning the technology that everyone else knows, but they

432
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:14.920
were bypassed in that training and so they are unhappy.

433
00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:19.519
But you also see gen zs really feeling disconnected. That's

434
00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:22.960
the highest rate of youngism that we've seen in history

435
00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:28.039
of actually analyzing agism. There's really harsh attitudes towards Gen

436
00:24:28.119 --> 00:24:31.799
zs right now, and millennials and exers are getting leap

437
00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:38.960
frogged by their millennial sort of the people that they're leading.

438
00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:42.400
And what's happening is they're succession planning and they're investing

439
00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:45.200
in succession planning, but no one above them, Like we're

440
00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:48.519
not seeing boomers actually looking at xers and saying I'm

441
00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:51.079
going to try to promote you. So it's they're getting stalled,

442
00:24:51.079 --> 00:24:54.519
but millennials are leap frogging them. So I think that

443
00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:59.119
there is a lot of generational frustrations and it's unique

444
00:24:59.200 --> 00:25:03.160
for every generation. But from a happiness standpoint, they're all

445
00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:05.599
feeling like their needs aren't being met.

446
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:08.440
So nobody's happy.

447
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:12.440
Nobody's sadly. When you look at the engagement numbers, I

448
00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:15.480
mean it's the lowest it's been in a decade. Active

449
00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:18.240
disengagement is the highest it's been in a decade. So

450
00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:21.839
the numbers are saying that most people at work are

451
00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:24.599
not satisfied, they're not happy at work.

452
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:29.400
Getting back to that young ism, that attitude towards young

453
00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:33.640
people is, is it that idea that they don't want

454
00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:35.279
to work, they just want to go straight to be

455
00:25:35.319 --> 00:25:37.279
the CEO, the one of stout On six figures that.

456
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:39.400
That is any of that true?

457
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:41.480
Do they have different expectations?

458
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:46.039
They do? And I think that's important to note because

459
00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:51.480
we have to recognize first that every generation, new generation

460
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:54.279
pushes back on the status quo. That's what they do.

461
00:25:54.759 --> 00:25:57.960
And you know what, we have modeled a terrible example

462
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:01.200
of work. Yes, everyone's burned out. They look at their

463
00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:05.720
parents who hate their jobs. They just recently you know,

464
00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:09.559
quit after how lots of people quitting after twenty years,

465
00:26:09.559 --> 00:26:11.880
and they're just like, this is terrible. I'm out of here.

466
00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:16.319
We're seeing the thinnest executive pipeline for women. They're like,

467
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:19.440
I'm bouncing. It's just no one's happy. And so they're

468
00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:23.279
they're thinking, like why would I want to do that? First,

469
00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:29.200
that's terrible. And then also we raised this generation right away.

470
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:31.519
As soon as they could speak, we were asking them

471
00:26:31.559 --> 00:26:35.240
like how they felt about their soother or like give

472
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:39.079
me your opinion, give me your opinion. They could barely

473
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:42.960
speak and we're asking for their opinion, and they were

474
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:47.160
It was like equal relationships. It was all negotiation. And

475
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:52.400
then we wonder, you know, why, why why would we

476
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:57.000
expect them to suddenly be different adults. And it's kind

477
00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:59.920
of like you know, boomers and exers, and I know

478
00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:02.920
I've fallen victims of that until I really understood the

479
00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:07.319
data is that this is correct. Like they come into

480
00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:11.240
this world of work and there's this implicit expectation of them,

481
00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:13.960
but they don't know what that is. And yet why

482
00:27:13.960 --> 00:27:18.799
wouldn't we in that generation, if we have expectations, why

483
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:21.480
wouldn't we coach them on that. Why wouldn't we say

484
00:27:21.880 --> 00:27:24.039
we expect difference. This is one of the things. This

485
00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:26.160
is how you manage up. This is how you manage

486
00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:29.279
conflict if you want to move up. These are the

487
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:31.880
ways that you communicate with your team. This is these

488
00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:34.759
are my preferences. You know, this is a product. Yes

489
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:37.480
I'm a product of my generation, but and I'm willing

490
00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:39.680
to compromise. But this is how I want to be

491
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:42.720
communicated to. I mean, there's ways for us to be

492
00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:46.240
able to just you know, openly share what our communication

493
00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:49.400
needs are. But instead, you know, all you just hear

494
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:52.279
is complaining and grumbling like, oh, gen zs they're so

495
00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:55.559
lazy and entitled and they just always have an opinion.

496
00:27:55.759 --> 00:27:58.799
And you know, I'm the CEO. Why are they interrupting

497
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:01.440
me in a town hall to share their opinion because

498
00:28:01.480 --> 00:28:05.519
they've done that their entire life up until now. Yeah,

499
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:08.359
so we need to get better realizing this is the

500
00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:12.599
product of the way we raised, you know, this generation.

501
00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:16.200
It's also recognizing that they do have a lot of

502
00:28:16.279 --> 00:28:21.200
really cool, interesting things to say, and that they believe

503
00:28:21.319 --> 00:28:26.400
that work life bounce, well being, happiness is not antithetical

504
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:30.200
to work ethic. They believe you can have the you know,

505
00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:32.799
it's dialectical theory that you can have both and two

506
00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:34.839
things can be true at the same time. I can

507
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:37.680
have a well being, I can have a family, I

508
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:39.480
can have friends if that's what I want to do,

509
00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:41.960
I can commit to those things, and I can be

510
00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:46.119
highly driven and ambitious and productive at work. And so

511
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:48.359
they're teaching us that maybe we need to have a51200:28:48.400 --> 00:28:51.200



new rethink of what that looks like.51300:28:51.839 --> 00:28:54.880



So interesting, and I almost feel like some of the51400:28:54.920 --> 00:28:57.279



older generation it's almost a bit it's not just set51500:28:57.319 --> 00:29:00.359



in their ways, it's almost a bit resentful. Had to51600:29:00.440 --> 00:29:02.400



do it, you know, it's like that's what I didn't51700:29:02.440 --> 00:29:06.519



get to do that or be that, So why should you.51800:29:06.079 --> 00:29:10.480



You know, there is a lot of that. Unfortunately, there's51900:29:11.440 --> 00:29:13.599



this is a big part of why I think we're52000:29:13.599 --> 00:29:16.240



trying to jam the toothbased back in the tube. When52100:29:16.240 --> 00:29:19.599



you look at the demographic makeup of the Fortune one thousand,52200:29:19.640 --> 00:29:21.839



for example, and there are a lot of the ones52300:29:21.880 --> 00:29:25.200



that are going to set precedent for mid market companies52400:29:25.400 --> 00:29:28.680



or just any organization. We all look up to that group.52500:29:28.799 --> 00:29:31.039



They're the ones in the media all the time. But52600:29:31.119 --> 00:29:35.200



the demographic makeup, you know, it's ninety three percent white male,52700:29:36.160 --> 00:29:39.519



fifty eight to sixty five. They have had a certain52800:29:39.599 --> 00:29:44.880



way of leading. This is uncomfortable. Yeah, it's scary. They52900:29:44.960 --> 00:29:48.359



don't they haven't they think about the neural wiring of53000:29:48.440 --> 00:29:51.759



the brain of a professional that's done that thing, and53100:29:51.839 --> 00:29:55.240



it's worked for a very long time. Just to rewire53200:29:55.319 --> 00:30:01.200



that now at this state in their career feels very difficult,53300:30:01.640 --> 00:30:04.519



very challenging. So I have an empathy for that, and53400:30:04.599 --> 00:30:10.480



yet it's creating a very unhappy group. And then you hear,53500:30:10.720 --> 00:30:13.480



you know, like Andy Jassey from CEO just said, we're53600:30:13.480 --> 00:30:15.440



gonna have a smaller workforce. AI is going to make53700:30:15.440 --> 00:30:19.440



a smaller workforce, and so that has been creating so53800:30:19.640 --> 00:30:22.440



much anxiety in our young people. They have this fear53900:30:22.519 --> 00:30:27.359



of being obsolete. It's creating hopelessness because they don't see54000:30:27.400 --> 00:30:32.480



that they have a future in the workforce. They are54100:30:32.519 --> 00:30:36.160



going to university four years and they're finding that after54200:30:36.240 --> 00:30:40.599



four years, fifty percent of the careers that you study54300:30:40.720 --> 00:30:46.160



for are now obsolete. So we need to talk differently54400:30:46.240 --> 00:30:49.400



about what the future of work looks like. The happier54500:30:49.640 --> 00:30:53.039



version of work is that we're partnering with technology, that54600:30:53.079 --> 00:30:57.480



we're not being replaced by them, and that really in54700:30:57.559 --> 00:31:02.000



consideration of what would happen if no one was working,54800:31:02.720 --> 00:31:06.440



how would our society prevail? I mean, how would we54900:31:06.519 --> 00:31:11.759



be capitalists anymore? If no one could consume goods exactly.55000:31:11.839 --> 00:31:15.799



So this idea of a desire, even a desire to55100:31:15.839 --> 00:31:20.359



replace humans with technology, it doesn't meet the model of55200:31:20.599 --> 00:31:26.240



how we consume goods, our gdp our economic situations. So55300:31:26.319 --> 00:31:29.839



unless governments around the world are going to completely change that,55400:31:30.680 --> 00:31:32.880



we still need human beings in the workforce.55500:31:33.519 --> 00:31:37.000



It is just expert like, the the rate of changing55600:31:37.039 --> 00:31:40.680



growth is just it's unprecedented.55700:31:41.160 --> 00:31:44.279



It really, I mean, there's not a better word for it.55800:31:44.279 --> 00:31:45.519



It is really unprecedented.55900:31:45.519 --> 00:31:47.759



And so you're right that there are good reasons for56000:31:47.799 --> 00:31:50.680



people to feel anxious and uncertain and getting back to56100:31:50.880 --> 00:31:55.559



we're a whole person. We're not comfortable with uncertainty. We56200:31:55.680 --> 00:31:58.319



have these basic needs that we need to have met.56300:31:58.720 --> 00:32:00.680



I just want to go back to what you said56400:32:00.759 --> 00:32:02.480



right at the beginning, because a lot of this has56500:32:02.519 --> 00:32:08.039



been about the way organizations set things up with their focus,56600:32:08.240 --> 00:32:12.839



which is predominantly on profit and are resistant to the56700:32:12.920 --> 00:32:16.839



idea that you can have both. You can actually folk,56800:32:16.920 --> 00:32:20.720



you can actually have happy people and have profit. In fact,56900:32:21.920 --> 00:32:27.079



having a happier, more satisfied workforce leads to higher levels57000:32:27.079 --> 00:32:27.559



of profit.57100:32:27.720 --> 00:32:29.559



Is this that is accurate?57200:32:29.680 --> 00:32:30.359



This is accurate.57300:32:30.559 --> 00:32:33.880



You can see that in the Oxford Well Being Research,57400:32:33.960 --> 00:32:37.400



a new book by Jan Emmanuel Denev and George Ward.57500:32:37.440 --> 00:32:41.960



They talk about not just the correlation to happiness and57600:32:42.799 --> 00:32:47.000



well being and business outcomes, they talk about the causal relationship.57700:32:47.039 --> 00:32:49.759



And you know, researchers and academics do not use that57800:32:49.799 --> 00:32:54.400



word lately, like they're constantly kind of creating words that57900:32:55.079 --> 00:32:58.599



parson around that because they are peer reviewed and so58000:32:58.640 --> 00:33:01.920



it's important to see that are saying there's direct links.58100:33:02.440 --> 00:33:04.720



We measured it. You can see it, you can see58200:33:04.759 --> 00:33:07.240



it in you know in sales revenue. You can see58300:33:07.240 --> 00:33:12.240



it in competitiveness. Raj Sosodia wrote Firms of Endearment and58400:33:12.279 --> 00:33:16.359



it's about conscious capitalism. He shows that there's a fifteen58500:33:16.400 --> 00:33:20.960



hundred percent increase in those organizations that focus on this58600:33:21.920 --> 00:33:26.720



well being and mental health and saving the planet and58700:33:26.759 --> 00:33:31.079



like really good goals that feel like value based goals.58800:33:31.559 --> 00:33:34.000



They outperform the S and P five hundred by fifteen58900:33:34.079 --> 00:33:38.920



hundred percent. I mean, it's significant, but we don't I59000:33:39.000 --> 00:33:41.480



don't understand. This is something for me that I haven't59100:33:41.519 --> 00:33:46.480



quite figured out yet why this hasn't changed. And I59200:33:46.559 --> 00:33:49.599



think I get different opinions. But one of the things59300:33:49.680 --> 00:33:55.559



is that it's a lot of organizational leadership at the59400:33:55.559 --> 00:33:58.599



C level do not know how to measure it really59500:33:58.640 --> 00:34:01.720



well and measure it quickly to be able to then59600:34:03.480 --> 00:34:08.079



respond quarterly to shareholders, to people that matter. It's like,59700:34:08.280 --> 00:34:10.880



now we have this urgency of reporting all the time,59800:34:10.920 --> 00:34:13.639



and it's such a big part of the way that59900:34:13.679 --> 00:34:19.360



we that we evolve that now we can't take long60000:34:19.440 --> 00:34:22.119



term strategies and really look at how we measure them60100:34:22.159 --> 00:34:25.559



over time. There's some organizations doing it really well, like60200:34:25.639 --> 00:34:28.519



Hilton is a really great example Laura Fuentes, who is60300:34:28.599 --> 00:34:32.679



the chro. She knew that they wanted to invest in Thriving.60400:34:33.719 --> 00:34:37.079



She spent five years just looking at the hygiene, fixing60500:34:37.159 --> 00:34:40.960



the hygiene. And to take five years and be trusted60600:34:41.079 --> 00:34:44.000



with that. I mean they're a huge company. I mean60700:34:44.440 --> 00:34:48.119



they're beholden to shareholders, and yet she said, you just60800:34:48.239 --> 00:34:50.320



have to trust me. And she was working on this60900:34:50.559 --> 00:34:54.360



through before the pandemic, and how they handled a crisis61000:34:54.400 --> 00:34:59.679



compared to other competitors was phenomenal and that was because61100:34:59.719 --> 00:35:03.000



of that work. And so then after now this thrive61200:35:03.360 --> 00:35:07.920



is truly remarkable and they are just constantly rated in61300:35:08.079 --> 00:35:10.119



all of the lists of best companies to work for61400:35:10.239 --> 00:35:14.000



and their employees love them, and and that is because61500:35:14.679 --> 00:35:16.639



she believed in the long term strategy.61600:35:17.199 --> 00:35:19.760



And the bottom line hasn't stuffered it.61700:35:20.119 --> 00:35:24.320



They've exactly, they've only exponentially grown. I mean, they have61800:35:24.519 --> 00:35:28.840



such a strong connection to their employees, but they also61900:35:28.880 --> 00:35:31.079



have a huge fan base, and a lot of that62000:35:31.119 --> 00:35:33.920



also has to do with the fact that they've brought62100:35:33.960 --> 00:35:36.119



in their employees, which are you know, one hundreds of62200:35:36.159 --> 00:35:39.320



thousand employees, but they've brought their families in and they62300:35:39.360 --> 00:35:42.679



have this this high you know, net promoter score because62400:35:42.719 --> 00:35:46.400



people recommend you working there, but also family members are62500:35:46.719 --> 00:35:49.920



like they become loyal fans of the company and the brand,62600:35:50.480 --> 00:35:53.599



and so you have to have a long term vision62700:35:53.639 --> 00:35:58.159



because the outcome down the line is exponential, you know,62800:35:58.800 --> 00:36:02.880



business outcomes that you can never imagine. But it really62900:36:03.280 --> 00:36:06.159



is about believing that the leader can take you there63000:36:06.440 --> 00:36:08.360



and giving them the runway to do it.63100:36:08.639 --> 00:36:11.000



A lot of this really relies on it sounds like63200:36:11.039 --> 00:36:14.920



it's a bit of an uphill battle getting leadership to63300:36:16.440 --> 00:36:18.519



recognize this, to appreciate this, and to be willing to63400:36:18.559 --> 00:36:23.239



invest in these strategies, these happiness strategies. For somebody who63500:36:23.280 --> 00:36:26.039



is working in an organization who is not happy, who63600:36:26.079 --> 00:36:27.719



doesn't feel like they're trust it doesn't feel like they63700:36:27.760 --> 00:36:31.360



have a sense of purpose, but they're not appreciated. What63800:36:31.480 --> 00:36:34.199



can they do though? But back to the choose happiness thing,63900:36:34.239 --> 00:36:37.039



but like, really, what are people's options if they're not64000:36:37.199 --> 00:36:39.840



happy at work? Because somebody listening to this podcast is64100:36:39.880 --> 00:36:41.800



going to go, well, that's all well and good, but64200:36:42.239 --> 00:36:45.519



they're not up the line. They're not doing anything about this,64300:36:45.599 --> 00:36:47.840



So what can I personally do?64400:36:48.480 --> 00:36:50.440



So this is a really good question, because I do64500:36:50.559 --> 00:36:52.599



look at it in a quadrant. You know, you have64600:36:52.679 --> 00:36:57.800



policies and good policies that help create a society and64700:36:57.880 --> 00:37:01.559



a workplace that's happier. Break to connect laws and pay64800:37:01.559 --> 00:37:03.960



transparents for in those kinds of things, so that helps.64900:37:04.519 --> 00:37:08.519



And then yes, executive leadership they play a very big65000:37:08.599 --> 00:37:11.679



role in just giving permission. But like, look at the65100:37:11.719 --> 00:37:15.599



manager they have around. You know, the variance of someone's65200:37:15.639 --> 00:37:19.840



engagement is around seventy percent in the manager's control. So65300:37:20.400 --> 00:37:24.559



whether we're happy or sad, managers have seventy percent of65400:37:24.639 --> 00:37:28.599



that variability, that variance, So they play a huge role.65500:37:28.639 --> 00:37:30.480



So even if you have all this stuff going on,65600:37:31.239 --> 00:37:33.280



you know at the executive level, and it's not perfect65700:37:33.400 --> 00:37:36.239



or policies aren't perfect, you as a manager can still65800:37:36.719 --> 00:37:40.000



you know, engage your team of three or five and65900:37:40.360 --> 00:37:42.800



you do that by making small adjustments. I mean, we're66000:37:42.840 --> 00:37:45.840



all tired of meetings. Ask people how they're feeling, what's66100:37:45.840 --> 00:37:48.760



burning them out? They say meetings. Cut down meetings by66200:37:48.800 --> 00:37:52.760



twenty percent. Measure job satisfaction before a quarter or later,66300:37:52.880 --> 00:37:55.360



do a measure if it's improved, keep doing it. Like,66400:37:55.639 --> 00:37:58.199



there's a lot that managers can do that are free66500:37:58.239 --> 00:38:01.039



and easy, they can pilot that, they can gather data66600:38:01.079 --> 00:38:03.519



so then they can advocate and get other you know,66700:38:03.559 --> 00:38:06.360



managers to be involved. So there's a lot of control66800:38:06.400 --> 00:38:09.159



at that level. And then as an individual, we're in66900:38:09.199 --> 00:38:13.039



that quadrant you know, manager here, we're here. We still67000:38:13.079 --> 00:38:17.000



have to go to work without learned helplessness. I mean,67100:38:17.039 --> 00:38:19.239



we can't just go to our manager and say like,67200:38:19.320 --> 00:38:22.079



I'm stressed, I'm burned out. We need to spend a67300:38:22.119 --> 00:38:25.599



couple of weeks really going through that self awareness of67400:38:25.920 --> 00:38:29.119



what is causing my burnout? Is it workload? Is it67500:38:29.239 --> 00:38:32.280



that I feel like I'm overlooked for promotions all the time?67600:38:32.599 --> 00:38:34.920



Is it lack of fairness? There's a decision or an67700:38:35.000 --> 00:38:38.480



arbitrary decision that was made, like going back to the office,67800:38:38.519 --> 00:38:40.440



and I do not want to do that. That has67900:38:40.480 --> 00:38:42.920



made me feel like I have no autonomy or agency.68000:38:42.960 --> 00:38:46.039



You know, what are those things? So understand what those68100:38:46.599 --> 00:38:49.480



you know, issues are, address them, and then also spend68200:38:49.480 --> 00:38:51.440



a couple of weeks going through the things that are68300:38:51.480 --> 00:38:54.239



like the pebbles, because the pebbles turn to boulders, that's68400:38:54.280 --> 00:38:56.199



what actually creates a lot of stress. So is it68500:38:56.800 --> 00:38:58.760



you know, you add a new technology come in and68600:38:58.800 --> 00:39:01.480



you don't really know how to use it very well,68700:39:01.519 --> 00:39:03.079



but you don't want to put up your hand to68800:39:03.119 --> 00:39:06.079



say it's creating thirty percent more work for me every day.68900:39:06.360 --> 00:39:11.000



A lot of stress comes from inefficiencies and overprocess. Maybe69000:39:11.039 --> 00:39:14.440



it's a lack of resource, Maybe it's a toxic co worker,69100:39:14.880 --> 00:39:18.119



you know, maybe it's like you're feeling micromanaged by your boss.69200:39:18.480 --> 00:39:21.199



There's lots of things that it could be contributing to69300:39:21.320 --> 00:39:24.599



that stress and burnout. Spend some time coming up with69400:39:24.639 --> 00:39:27.000



some solutions, you know, like, don't just go to your69500:39:27.199 --> 00:39:30.159



manager or then go around them and go to HR.69600:39:30.800 --> 00:39:33.960



Spend some time and actually think about what kind of69700:39:33.960 --> 00:39:36.679



solutions can I bring to my manager. And if they're69800:39:36.679 --> 00:39:39.159



open to it, and they're a good boss, they're just69900:39:39.199 --> 00:39:41.199



so busy themselves, they're not paying attention to you as70000:39:41.239 --> 00:39:44.880



much as they should, they'll help you succeed. If it's70100:39:44.920 --> 00:39:48.159



a bad boss who doesn't want to help you, you know,70200:39:48.280 --> 00:39:52.519



that's probably going to be a constant. And so these70300:39:52.559 --> 00:39:54.840



are the things where it's like we just still need70400:39:54.880 --> 00:39:58.199



to choose happiness by owning, you know, what is in70500:39:58.239 --> 00:40:00.639



the locus of our control. What can we own, what70600:40:00.679 --> 00:40:04.400



do we know? How can we really investigate the things70700:40:04.400 --> 00:40:07.559



that are bothering us? And then once we slowly go70800:40:07.639 --> 00:40:10.480



through the process of solving them, we get more time back.70900:40:10.599 --> 00:40:12.599



Then we can infess more in self care. Then we71000:40:12.639 --> 00:40:15.599



can participate in a program that's you know, we're really71100:40:15.639 --> 00:40:19.400



aligned with another ERG or volunteer, and so it's an71200:40:19.400 --> 00:40:22.960



incremental journey. But we have to start with ourselves to71300:40:23.159 --> 00:40:26.199



come to our you know, to our leaders with really71400:40:26.239 --> 00:40:31.360



good ideas and really creative solutions, and they'll, hopefully, if71500:40:31.400 --> 00:40:33.760



they're good leaders, they'll respond positively.71600:40:35.280 --> 00:40:38.280



So important, and just what you said about having taking71700:40:38.320 --> 00:40:40.880



back some sense of agency, I mean, just just having71800:40:40.880 --> 00:40:45.239



a sense of agency is so important for people's mental health.71900:40:45.920 --> 00:40:49.159



You're right, I think that's even just doing that exercise72000:40:49.280 --> 00:40:53.480



makes you feel like, oh I can see this. Oh no,72100:40:53.599 --> 00:40:57.719



that's that isn't my you know, my fault, Like okay,72200:40:57.800 --> 00:41:00.199



I didn't get the proper training. There no wonder this72300:41:00.239 --> 00:41:04.079



is happening. Or yeah, this person is constantly calling me72400:41:04.199 --> 00:41:07.440



last minute to solve problems for them, and I have72500:41:07.519 --> 00:41:09.920



a million other things and I don't want to say no.72600:41:10.639 --> 00:41:14.400



My boss probably doesn't know that this other person over72700:41:14.440 --> 00:41:17.679



there that shouldn't be asking me to help them. They72800:41:17.719 --> 00:41:20.039



probably don't even know that, but I'm saying yes because72900:41:20.039 --> 00:41:22.800



I feel pressure. These are the kind of things that73000:41:23.440 --> 00:41:28.400



make you exhausted. And if you are able to think, okay,73100:41:28.400 --> 00:41:32.119



maybe I can as a team with my leader or73200:41:32.199 --> 00:41:34.880



with a co worker, we can solve these problems together,73300:41:35.559 --> 00:41:39.000



you start to feel this sense of hopefulness. Hope is73400:41:39.039 --> 00:41:42.360



really about goal setting and achieving goals, right, So it's73500:41:42.480 --> 00:41:45.280



tiny goals. So it's like solving tiny problems all the time,73600:41:45.639 --> 00:41:48.239



which builds up that cognitive hope, which builds up our73700:41:48.440 --> 00:41:50.480



self efficacy and our happiness.73800:41:51.239 --> 00:41:52.679



You know what occurred to me as you were talking,73900:41:52.679 --> 00:41:54.000



when you were going through all of the things that74000:41:54.079 --> 00:41:55.760



might cause you burn out, and I know you said74100:41:55.760 --> 00:41:57.760



this in the book as well, is that when people74200:41:57.800 --> 00:42:00.480



list the things that cause them to be unhappy at work,74300:42:01.159 --> 00:42:03.480



such a huge percentage of them to do with people.74400:42:04.000 --> 00:42:06.559



It's relationships and how we interact with each other in74500:42:06.559 --> 00:42:12.119



the workplace has a massive impact on how satisfied we are.74600:42:13.159 --> 00:42:15.920



Yes in the first or the first book and then74700:42:15.960 --> 00:42:18.400



an on the burnout epidemic, I did some research on74800:42:19.239 --> 00:42:23.000



toxic relationships at work and there's been several studies that74900:42:23.039 --> 00:42:26.320



have found that it actually decreases your lifespan when you75000:42:26.400 --> 00:42:29.679



have a toxic relationship at work because we spend so75100:42:29.760 --> 00:42:31.519



much time there. And I thought like they were talking75200:42:31.519 --> 00:42:35.239



about losing like three years off your life if you75300:42:35.440 --> 00:42:40.199



have poor relationships at work. And because it isn't just75400:42:40.440 --> 00:42:42.719



okay you have a friend that you get mad at75500:42:42.760 --> 00:42:45.239



and maybe you don't spend time with. If you have75600:42:45.280 --> 00:42:48.719



someone that's a bully in your life or is really75700:42:50.039 --> 00:42:53.159



unkind and you have to show up and spend eight75800:42:53.239 --> 00:42:58.239



ten hours every single day around that person, it's pretty catastrophic.75900:42:58.400 --> 00:43:01.480



So that's you know, on the side, there's real impact,76000:43:01.480 --> 00:43:06.800



but having close friendships is unbelievably special. There was this76100:43:06.880 --> 00:43:10.320



really cool Cornell study that I love. It found that76200:43:10.360 --> 00:43:13.599



twenty minutes of having lunch with someone you like once76300:43:13.639 --> 00:43:15.880



a week, just away from your desk, twenty minutes once76400:43:15.920 --> 00:43:18.920



a week, had this huge impact on your well being,76500:43:19.000 --> 00:43:22.440



on your morale, You made less mistakes, you had higher76600:43:22.480 --> 00:43:26.719



team cohesion, safety risks went down when they measured this76700:43:26.880 --> 00:43:30.880



with firefighters in different houses. I mean, it was incredible76800:43:30.920 --> 00:43:33.400



to think that, you know, just twenty minutes of having76900:43:33.440 --> 00:43:36.679



that share bomb can be the thing that makes you77000:43:36.719 --> 00:43:37.400



love your job.77100:43:38.480 --> 00:43:43.800



So I love that so action double and so meaningful,77200:43:44.000 --> 00:43:47.719



just to highlight to people how important that is those77300:43:48.119 --> 00:43:49.519



positive social connections.77400:43:49.840 --> 00:43:51.880



Yeah, and there's this other great study that I love.77500:43:52.039 --> 00:43:56.280



It's about spreading positive gossip, so you talk really nicely77600:43:56.559 --> 00:44:01.039



behind people's backs. And they did this research and found77700:44:01.079 --> 00:44:05.679



that in these organizations where they practiced positive gossip that77800:44:05.920 --> 00:44:11.760



onboarding was exponentially increased in the time people felt comfortable77900:44:11.960 --> 00:44:15.280



in their roles. And a big reason for that was78000:44:15.639 --> 00:44:19.800



this this great increase in innovation and psychological psychological safety78100:44:19.880 --> 00:44:24.679



was people believed, which you know, perception is reality. People78200:44:24.760 --> 00:44:27.320



perceived that people were saying nice things about them behind78300:44:27.360 --> 00:44:30.880



their bag. So maybe that wasn't happening, but they thought that,78400:44:31.039 --> 00:44:33.920



and so it made them feel so confident, so optimistic,78500:44:34.039 --> 00:44:38.079



and so well cared for. And it's another thing like78600:44:38.159 --> 00:44:41.119



how easy it is for us to say nice things78700:44:41.159 --> 00:44:44.079



behind each other's bags. I mean, it's so lovely.78800:44:44.760 --> 00:44:46.400



I love that we should all do that.78900:44:46.480 --> 00:44:49.440



We should all just just in life generally say nice79000:44:49.480 --> 00:44:53.360



things about.79100:44:52.039 --> 00:44:54.559



And then there's another thing which I love is you79200:44:54.559 --> 00:44:58.199



know how to give an optimize compliment for well being79300:44:58.320 --> 00:45:01.639



for happiness, and we often at work we were told79400:45:01.639 --> 00:45:03.480



to give kudos or you give a you know, a79500:45:03.599 --> 00:45:06.880



good job or emoji it's like great, great job. And79600:45:06.960 --> 00:45:09.639



what they're finding is people think that's okay, but it79700:45:09.679 --> 00:45:13.320



starts to lose its value over time. And so what79800:45:13.360 --> 00:45:17.400



we need to be doing is empathetic listening and then compassion,79900:45:17.400 --> 00:45:20.440



which is you know, compassion is empathy and listening, but80000:45:20.519 --> 00:45:24.320



then turning it into action. So instead, in your next80100:45:24.320 --> 00:45:28.360



meeting where you hear something really cool or delightful, you'll say,80200:45:28.760 --> 00:45:32.400



you know, hey, Cas, that was this is me talking80300:45:32.400 --> 00:45:34.440



to you. Well, we're ten, we're role playing here, go80400:45:34.480 --> 00:45:37.280



on here, yes, yes, So Cas, I love what you80500:45:37.400 --> 00:45:40.800



told the group about this project that you're working on,80600:45:40.840 --> 00:45:44.159



and that data is actually really fascinating. I'm going to80700:45:44.159 --> 00:45:46.079



bring that back to my team and we're going to80800:45:46.239 --> 00:45:48.199



like play around with that, and then I'm going to80900:45:48.280 --> 00:45:50.199



tell you how it worked out, because I just thought81000:45:50.559 --> 00:45:53.280



it's going to be very useful for me. That took81100:45:53.440 --> 00:45:57.840



fifteen twenty seconds. But you're telling someone I listen to you.81200:45:58.679 --> 00:46:00.840



I think what you have to say is interesting, that81300:46:00.960 --> 00:46:03.679



you're passionate about this, and so now I care about81400:46:03.679 --> 00:46:06.239



that thing you're passionate about. Now, I'm going to go81500:46:06.480 --> 00:46:09.480



and mobilize that. And I'm also going to increase your81600:46:09.519 --> 00:46:11.639



profile because I'm going to be bragging about what great81700:46:11.639 --> 00:46:14.599



stuff you're doing. I mean, these are things that we81800:46:14.639 --> 00:46:19.440



don't realize, like that's so impactful to someone in their career,81900:46:19.559 --> 00:46:25.519



and it's fifteen seconds longer than kudos or great job.82000:46:25.880 --> 00:46:29.000



I love that the tactics are so simple. We tend82100:46:29.039 --> 00:46:31.679



to try to make them more complex than they are.82200:46:31.760 --> 00:46:34.440



But happiness is really about the simplicity.82300:46:35.000 --> 00:46:38.639



The point that you raise straight up in the new book,82400:46:38.719 --> 00:46:42.639



the ten year anniversary edition of the book is that82500:46:43.320 --> 00:46:45.000



fundamentally it boils down to kindness.82600:46:46.199 --> 00:46:51.599



Yes one. And I'm citing research out of Oxford again.82700:46:51.639 --> 00:46:55.360



Oxford well Being Institute looked at the well being programs82800:46:56.280 --> 00:46:59.480



that failed and the ones that were neutral, and then82900:46:59.519 --> 00:47:02.400



the ones that were the most successful, and they found83000:47:02.440 --> 00:47:08.039



that resiliency training actually is detrimental to people's wellbeing. Interesting,83100:47:08.320 --> 00:47:14.920



very interesting. I thought that was especially for salary professionals83200:47:14.920 --> 00:47:18.280



and even worse for women. And so one of the83300:47:18.400 --> 00:47:22.119



reasons why is that it feels tone deaf. People are83400:47:22.159 --> 00:47:25.440



feeling like I'm working seventy hours. I'm taking this two83500:47:25.440 --> 00:47:28.599



hour resiliency training to be resilient from what you making83600:47:28.639 --> 00:47:32.000



me work seventy hours exactly. And because there's so much83700:47:32.039 --> 00:47:34.800



unpaid labor for women and they have that second shift,83800:47:35.199 --> 00:47:38.000



it's forcing them to take time away from family, and83900:47:38.800 --> 00:47:43.000



it just it feels very unsettling that they're investing this84000:47:43.079 --> 00:47:46.440



time in something that is being caused by the people84100:47:46.480 --> 00:47:49.679



that are training them. So that's a thing, but a84200:47:49.719 --> 00:47:52.400



lot of the other stuff is neutral. There's a lot84300:47:52.440 --> 00:47:56.760



of conversation around unconscious bias training and how that's really84400:47:56.800 --> 00:48:01.039



causing a lot of dissonance and disco Actually it's not84500:48:01.159 --> 00:48:04.320



working to bring people together. Really, they're finding that it84600:48:04.440 --> 00:48:08.519



makes people feel shamed, and so it's a bit of84700:48:08.880 --> 00:48:12.239



why fragility. There is a level of that, But I84800:48:12.239 --> 00:48:14.599



think that what happens when we do that is just84900:48:14.679 --> 00:48:17.360



we just continue to other. A better way to do85000:48:17.400 --> 00:48:20.920



it is to amplify great people with great ideas. And85100:48:20.960 --> 00:48:23.880



a lot of great people with great ideas are from85200:48:23.920 --> 00:48:29.559



diverse backgrounds, So it's about amplification and augmentation versus deficit.85300:48:30.360 --> 00:48:33.679



And so you know, starting to think about doing more85400:48:33.719 --> 00:48:37.800



as a leader and focusing on amplifying great ideas, and85500:48:38.119 --> 00:48:40.719



it's important for us to look for the ideas and85600:48:40.800 --> 00:48:44.840



make sure we're amplifying the ideas of all audiences. And85700:48:44.880 --> 00:48:48.519



then it becomes not like, you know, the female Entrepreneur85800:48:48.519 --> 00:48:51.159



of the Year award, it's the Entrepreneur of the Year award,85900:48:51.239 --> 00:48:54.000



and you're you know, a black single mom. You know,86000:48:54.119 --> 00:48:57.239



like that is the most burned out demographic because they86100:48:57.320 --> 00:49:00.519



feel very unseen and they don't also have the privilege86200:49:00.559 --> 00:49:04.320



of just quitting something's going wrong. They fight so hard86300:49:04.360 --> 00:49:07.280



to be able to have status. That's what we should86400:49:07.320 --> 00:49:11.440



be doing is taking ideas from those groups and amplifying them.86500:49:11.719 --> 00:49:14.159



But one of the things that is back to this86600:49:14.239 --> 00:49:18.719



in a roundabout way is altruism is the best well86700:49:18.760 --> 00:49:22.679



being investment that you can make. And it is sort86800:49:22.679 --> 00:49:24.960



of a cultural thing. It sounds sort of nebulous, like86900:49:25.000 --> 00:49:28.239



how do we build altruism? But in organizations where you're87000:49:28.320 --> 00:49:32.000



just really putting other people first and you're thinking about87100:49:32.239 --> 00:49:37.639



how they might feel in situations, you're also kind of87200:49:37.920 --> 00:49:40.719



doing for your coworkers and your peers, you're kind of87300:49:40.760 --> 00:49:43.159



doing those extra things to help them. You're asking like,87400:49:43.239 --> 00:49:46.719



what can I do to make you this problem go away,87500:49:46.800 --> 00:49:48.599



or what can we do for each other to make87600:49:48.599 --> 00:49:50.679



next week a bit easier? You know, these are the87700:49:50.760 --> 00:49:53.199



kind of things that I say, build into a weekly meeting.87800:49:53.440 --> 00:49:56.280



Ask people what lights them up, ask people what stresses87900:49:56.280 --> 00:49:58.559



them out, and then altogether you go, what can we88000:49:58.599 --> 00:50:01.880



do to make next week? It's the kind of idea88100:50:01.880 --> 00:50:05.000



of buying the person behind you a coffee, you know,88200:50:05.119 --> 00:50:08.000



those kinds of attitudes of just like, I want to88300:50:08.039 --> 00:50:11.400



do a nice thing for someone today, and I'm going88400:50:11.480 --> 00:50:14.920



to do that by helping level you up in your career, mentoring,88500:50:15.079 --> 00:50:18.599



peer support, asking someone to teach you things, so you're88600:50:18.639 --> 00:50:21.519



asking for their knowledge, you're complimenting them in a way88700:50:21.559 --> 00:50:26.519



that's really you know again amplified. And so these are88800:50:26.559 --> 00:50:29.840



the things when you have an altruistic culture that really88900:50:29.920 --> 00:50:32.320



leads to higher well being and happiness.89000:50:32.719 --> 00:50:36.960



How interesting, And I'm assuming because the research generally about89100:50:37.000 --> 00:50:39.880



kindness is that the person the well being is improved,89200:50:39.880 --> 00:50:41.880



not just for the recipient of the contact, but the89300:50:41.880 --> 00:50:44.599



person doing the contact, like their well being improves as well.89400:50:44.639 --> 00:50:47.320



So I imagine that's no different in an organization that89500:50:47.480 --> 00:50:49.559



everybody's benefiting.89600:50:49.920 --> 00:50:51.880



It's so true, and you know, you know, you know,89700:50:52.000 --> 00:50:54.880



social contagions and network effect. I mean, I love still89800:50:54.920 --> 00:50:59.000



the Christakis Fowler, you know, Yale Harvard study of social contagions,89900:50:59.079 --> 00:51:02.079



and and what I think is so cool about their90000:51:02.119 --> 00:51:05.159



research is that if there's people around you proximal that90100:51:05.239 --> 00:51:09.360



are happy and feeling good and optimistic, it spreads and90200:51:09.440 --> 00:51:12.679



so you're doing a nice thing, it makes you feel good,90300:51:12.760 --> 00:51:15.199



kind of like that Friend's episode where Phoebe's trying to90400:51:15.239 --> 00:51:19.079



like not be selfish as she's being selfless, and she90500:51:19.199 --> 00:51:22.000



realizes she can't because it just feels so good to90600:51:22.039 --> 00:51:26.000



do nice things. But it is that that becomes a contagion.90700:51:26.039 --> 00:51:28.840



Then you have a network effect of people then doing90800:51:28.920 --> 00:51:31.360



nicer things for each other they know it feels good.90900:51:31.920 --> 00:51:34.599



It's all this pro social kind of give and take,91000:51:35.239 --> 00:51:39.519



and then the culture starts to slowly shift and you91100:51:39.559 --> 00:51:42.679



feel it and that becomes the norm, and you're creating91200:51:42.679 --> 00:51:46.400



these social norms that are pushing kind of maladaptive behaviors91300:51:46.440 --> 00:51:50.559



away and really increasing that pro sociality. And they've found91400:51:50.559 --> 00:51:53.519



that in a crisis, if you have a pro social organization,91500:51:54.320 --> 00:51:57.400



what tends to happen, especially in a pandemic where it's91600:51:57.400 --> 00:52:02.559



mortality facing. The research fine mean that mortality science or91700:52:02.599 --> 00:52:09.400



crisis actually completely explodes those behaviors that you currently have.91800:52:09.960 --> 00:52:12.920



It's this idea of post traumatic growth. So if you91900:52:13.079 --> 00:52:16.039



create that culture and you hit a crisis, it actually92000:52:16.079 --> 00:52:16.920



makes you better.92100:52:17.360 --> 00:52:17.760



Wow.92200:52:17.880 --> 00:52:22.239



And if you have the opposite, it doubles down on that.92300:52:22.400 --> 00:52:25.079



So it makes you so much more polarized, so much92400:52:25.119 --> 00:52:29.599



more critical and cynical, and engagement plummets. So we want92500:52:29.639 --> 00:52:34.039



to actually build this kind of happiness up so that92600:52:34.159 --> 00:52:37.239



if we face a crisis, which I feel like we're92700:52:37.239 --> 00:52:40.840



probably going to face another crisis, and that they're happening92800:52:40.920 --> 00:52:44.360



much more frequently, that this is a really good strategy92900:52:44.360 --> 00:52:47.360



to have to be able to weather these storms so93000:52:47.360 --> 00:52:49.559



so much better. I'm not just like weather them, it's93100:52:49.559 --> 00:52:52.320



like come out deriving from them.93200:52:53.039 --> 00:52:57.039



This has been so interesting, Jen, I really appreciate you93300:52:57.119 --> 00:52:59.239



making the time. Thank you so much for being here.93400:52:59.679 --> 00:53:02.639



I loved this conversation, and thank you so much for93500:53:02.679 --> 00:53:05.119



bringing me into your studio. This just has mean it's93600:53:05.159 --> 00:53:07.559



so much more fun. Thank you, No, you're welcome.93700:53:09.199 --> 00:53:12.119



Crappy to Happy is created and produced by me castun.93800:53:12.280 --> 00:53:14.320



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to catch you next week for another fabulous episode of94500:53:27.039 --> 00:53:39.119



Crappy to Happy