Aug. 11, 2025

Unlocking Happiness at Work with Jennifer Moss

Unlocking Happiness at Work with Jennifer Moss
Unlocking Happiness at Work with Jennifer Moss
Crappy to Happy
Unlocking Happiness at Work with Jennifer Moss
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Season 15Job SatisfactionPositive Psychology

*Audio problem now fixed! Pick up from 25min where the audio problem occurredJennifer Moss joins me to discuss the profound shifts in the workplace over the last decade and the impact they've had on our wellbeing. She shares compelling evidence that happier employees enhance the bottom line, making it clear that investing in effective wellbeing strategies is not just logical but essential. Jen emphasises the importance of getting the foundational elements right, like psychological safety and fair pay, rather than the typical perks that often miss the mark. Jen has the lowdown on whether workplace satisfaction varies across generations, what the optimal model is for hybrid working, and strategies that individuals can apply to enhance their workplace happiness. If you're feeling overwhelmed or unfulfilled at work, tune in for actionable steps you can take to regain control and advocate for your own happiness, or to create a thriving workplace for your team. Takeaways

  • Happiness at work depends heavily on foundational needs being met, not perks.
  • Generational differences impact attitudes to work and motivational drivers.
  • There is an optimal model for hybrid work that enhances employee engagement but most organisations are getting it wrong.
  • Leadership plays a crucial role in shaping workplace happiness and culture but individuals can take proactive steps to improve their work satisfaction.
  • Relationships at work significantly affect overall well-being and job satisfaction.
  • Creating a culture of kindness is key to enhancing employee morale and productivity.


Connect with Jen:https://www.jennifer-moss.com/
Jen's latest book:Why Are We Here? Creating a Work Culture Everyone Wants
Unlocking Happiness at Work: 10th Anniversary Edition
The Burnout Epidemic: The Rise of Chronic Stress & How We Can Fix It

Research Mentioned in This Episode


Connect with Cass:

www.cassdunn.com
www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
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www.tiktok.com/@crappytohappypod


Are you a coach, therapist, service provider or solopreneur struggling with self-doubt and imposter syndrome? I'd love to talk to you! (for market research purposes only!)

Book a call with me to share your experience.

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Chapters

00:00 - Untitled

00:04 - The Impact of Positive Gossip on Workplace Culture

02:00 - The Evolution of Happiness at Work

13:40 - The Impact of Remote Work on Employee Wellbeing

21:06 - Generational Differences in the Workplace

35:57 - Addressing Workplace Happiness and Leadership

41:41 - The Impact of Workplace Relationships on Well-Being

Transcript
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So you talked really nicely behind people's bags. And they

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did this research and found that in these organizations where

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they practiced positive gossip, that onboarding was exponentially increased in

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the time people felt comfortable in their roles, and a

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big reason for that was this great increase in innovation

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and psychological psychological safety was people believed, which you know,

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perception is reality. People perceived that people were saying nice

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things about them behind their bag.

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Welcome back to Crappy Tom Happy today. I'm very excited

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to be heading into the studio to have an in

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person interview with Jennifer Moss Jen hailes from Canada. I'm

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very fortunate that she's visiting London and has made the

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time to see me. Jen is a workplace well being strategist.

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She is passionate about helping organizations to cultivate thriving workplaces.

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She explores the data to work out what makes people

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happy at work and why that matters not just for

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the individuals, but for the organization as well. Jen's got

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some pretty impressive credentials. I feel like I should just

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run through a few of them for you. She consults

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with Fortune five hundred companies around the world about their

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organizational culture.

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She's featured in.

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Media outlets around the world, rights for the Harvard Business Review.

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She runs around doing keynotes around the world. I mean,

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everybody wants her insights into how to cultivate thriving workplaces.

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Now.

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Jen's written several books, and ten years ago she wrote

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one called Unlocking Happiness at Work. As we all know,

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a lot has changed in the last ten years. We've

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had the pandemic, we've moved to this whole remote hybrid

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working situation, We've had the introduction of AI. I mean,

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the shifts have been profound. So therefore, on the tenth

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anniversary of the release of that book, Jen has fully

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revised and updated it. So I was fortunate enough to

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receive a copy of that book. Absolutely loved it, of course,

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because it is all of the stuff that I am

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also really passionate about. While this is the tenth anniversary

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of Unlocking Happiness at Work. In the meantime, she also

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wrote The Burnout Epidemic in twenty twenty one, and just

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this year she wrote a book called Why Are We Here?

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So if these are topics that are of interest to you,

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highly recommend that you go and check them. Out. I'll

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put the links in the show notes, but for now,

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let's go talk to Jen about what makes people happy

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at work. Jennifer, Welcome to the Crappy to Happy podcast

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and welcome to London.

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I'm so happy to be here, not just because it's London,

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but it's so nice to sit and I have a

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feace to face conversation with you.

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This is great in person.

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Yeah, that has been my focus this year, and it's

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so interesting that you and I are going to talk

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about happiness at work. Because, as somebody who's been who

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works for myself and works from home, and I've been

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doing this podcast from home since Covid, I this year

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have just said no more. I'm just desperate to get

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into the room with people. So I'm so interested to

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have a conversation with you about you know, who else

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is feeling like this and what's going on in terms

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of happiness at work.

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I love that. And you know, when just before we

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started talking, I was saying how just sick and tired

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I am of zoom calls and how exhausted I get

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by them, and how fueled I get. When I'm actually

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in a room with people, It's like a completely different

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sense of connection and energy in the space, and I

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think a lot of people are missing that too.

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Yeah, So, when it comes to happiness at work, such

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an important topic because obviously work is such a huge

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part of our life. We spend so many hours at work.

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It's such a part of our identity. Even so, straight

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off the bat, while there's going to be differences for

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different individuals and different demographics, what is universally true, like

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what are the fundamentals that contribute to people being happier

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at work generally?

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So, you know, I started Unlucky Happiness at Work ten

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years ago, and you know, it was to really understand

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psychological fitness. There was a lot there wasn't a lot

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that people were talking about really at that point around

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happiness at work. There was some I mean Sean Aker

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and some others that were just really prolific there, but

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the idea of telling a CFO that they should invest

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in happiness strategy was like just people were rolling their

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eyes at us. And I mean, despite all the great

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data that says this is good for business outcomes. And

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you know, through that process and then writing the burnout Epidemic,

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which was essentially you know, I became the unhappiness Expert

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after being the happiness expert and then writing why are

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we here, which is another kind of I think similar

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to this book. It's kind of like a what can

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we do with all this information? The how? But what

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I think is fundamental is understanding that for people to

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really have high levels of happy and well being at work,

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we need to make sure that we have the hygiene right.

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We have.

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The stuff that people should not even know is happening

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behind the scenes, that they're just being paid fairly, that

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you know, that they're psychologically safe, that they have their

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needs being met, that they're not being discriminated against, you

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know that we have these basic fundamental needs sort of

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like the maslocks with kind of looking at it, not

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as a pyramid. We know that now, but just in

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what are these fundamental needs? And if we've got that going,

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if we have that right in an organization, then people

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have the opportunity to invest in self care, to you know,

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engage with their community, to feel like that they matter

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at work, to be optimized. And I think that that

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is the thing that I've really learned in the last

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year ten years since I started this book to now

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is that it isn't just about those downstream tactics to

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make people happy, like more yoga and you know, and

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right and kind of these like band aid solutions. That

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it really is this foundational piece and then we build

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on that.

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Yeah. Really interesting.

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So when you say downstream, that's you know, you're talking

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about the individual taking responsibility for being happier that whole

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choose happiness, which was a title of a chapter in

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a book that.

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I wrote at one point too.

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But in actual fact, there are all of these environmental factors.

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There's the culture and the support systems around people that

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are a huge part of whether or not they're going

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to feel comfortable and safe enough to then be able

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to thrive.

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You nailed it.

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I mean I did write whose Happiness? That was a theme.

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You know, it was always I think even then, I

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had the T shirt good Vibes Only Happiness is a journey,

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and you know, all of them names, all the memes

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that became so popular, which also created toxic positivity and

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people felt like that they couldn't say I'm not okay.

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And so in the book you would have seen I

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sort of apologize for whatever part I played in that,

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because at the time it did make sense. It was

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about psychological fitness, and at the time it was also

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self care. I mean that was even a brand new topic. Yeah,

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fifteen years ago, twelve years ago when we started the

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company and then wrote the book. So there's been an

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evolution in that thinking to understand that we can't choose

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happiness all the time, and that's a privilege and a

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lot of you know, in a lot of places, choosing

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happiness means that you have all of those other foundational stuff,

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even just social support that you have. You know, you

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have the ability to buy food and pay rent and

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you know those simple things that can really be devastating

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to our happiness and make it very difficult to choose it. So,

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you know, in this new you know, conversation that we're having,

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it really is about how do we think about happiness

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in a much more nuanced and complex way. Maybe it

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shouldn't even be called happiness, you know, like, you know,

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what does that look like? I still like the words,

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So I'm going to keep it.

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I do too, and everybody get everybody gets it right,

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I just go Look, it's just everybody understands what you

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mean as soon as you say happy. So I'm going

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to keep using it. Whether you like it or not,

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that's theage. Yes, we get what that means.

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Yes, And yeah, there's lots of people that are saying

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we have to change I don't think we have to

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change the word. I think we need to give people

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a better understanding of what a definition. Yeah.

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Now, when you were talking and you were talking about

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psychological safety and you know, getting paid well and all

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of those fundamentals, it occurred to me that what you're

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talking about is not happiness at work. You're talking about

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happiness generally like that we have.

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A we are a whole person.

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Yes, And essentially what you're saying is the stuff that's

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going to make because support our well being broadly is

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the same stuff that's going to support us at work

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that is necessary in the workplace. And are you saying

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that we or organizations haven't been getting this right?

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No, I mean, and it's gotten worse. And I've found

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in the pandemic there was this moment And unfortunately, in

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this may sound cynical from a person that you know

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tries to talk positively and optimistically, but I think you

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have to have a healthy skepticism. But I do feel

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like that in the pandemic because it was a bottom

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line issue because we were losing so many people and

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there was so much mobility, and there was this great

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resignation and we saw a lot of organizations say, okay,

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well we got to do what we have to do

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to keep these people retained. And it worked, you know,

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the investment in well being, the investment in diversity and

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equity and inclusion, this ability to you support autonomy all

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of a sudden when we you know, didn't have agency

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before it was flexibility. There was so many things we

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were doing right when it comes to happiness at work.

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And then as soon as there was less mobility and

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as soon as it was more in you know, employers

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or organizations their control, they started to claw back. And

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so we're hearing things like the Great Betrayal because it

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was an investment in people's happiness and well being and

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that was working. But you realize that for organizations, if

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it's not a bottom line issue, it gets it gets tossed. Yeah,

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and that's really unfortunate. It was an unfortunate realization that

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we saw that pendulum swing and then now it's slung back. Yeah.

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I really wanted to talk to you about that that

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during the pandemic have so many questions about that.

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So first up, it occurs.

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To me that during the pandemic and the shift to

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everybody having to be at home and doing all of

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the zoom calls and being taking the calls in their

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lounge room, it seemed to have the effect of really

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humanizing people. Whatever role you had in the organization, from

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the CEO down to whoever the lowest level admin assistant.

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You know, when people were all having to dial in

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and their kids are in the background or their pets

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in the room, it seemed to have this effect of

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kind of leveling and humanizing people. Have you seen that

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kind of continue in terms of that just people being

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more comfortable to just kind of be themselves in show

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up for themselves, or be more honest about what's going

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on at home. Has it helped to shift our perspective

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or our expectations of people in a way.

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I do think that there has been more conversation even

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just about the terms. I mean, we've normalized the term

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burnout and that has become ubiquitous. And you know, I

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was writing The Burnout Epidemic before the pandemic and then

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it hit. Wow, had to rewrite a lot of it

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and so it was fortunately for the book, it was

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you know, it was in the same kind of realm

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as unprecedented and you're on mute. You know, burnout became

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just as much of an overused term. And so in

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a way, when we do that, when we just kind

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of pound people with that term, there's more conversations about it,

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and that is good. There's more measurement that I'm seeing

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in organizations around stress so that we can improve well being.

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There's an understanding that it does work. I mean, there's

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they saw it, they saw it work, and it is

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something that there's way more investment in it than there

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was before. But I do think that there is still

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so much stigma. There's what we found in our research

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is that of the people that were extremely or highly

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burned out, sixty seven percent of them could not talk

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about their mental health at work. Oh really, it correlates,

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and this idea of not being able to actually talk

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about it is still very ever present and we're still

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seeing you know, that Mercer Trends report just came out

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that eighty one percent of the global workforce is still

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at risk of burnout. So really, so we haven't done

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much about it, but we are having more conversations about it.

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I think that a lot of leaders just have a

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really hard time understanding how to operationalize a happiness strategy,

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and so instead we get like, okay, let's just you know,

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put money to things that aren't working, and unfortunately that's

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leading to a lot of people still feeling uncared for.

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Yeah.

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So so talking about the burnout and just going back

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to the remote you know, the pandemic and the impact

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that that has had and the shift in the way

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that we work. You know, I work for myself and

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I went from home, so I'm not really in that space.

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But from what I observe, the ider remote working gives

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people flexibility. They don't have to commute and they can.

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It gives them a better life balance. On the downside,

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they're not necessarily getting the regular social interaction and the

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incidental kind of conversations. So are you saying that if

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the net sum of all of that is that people

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are actually more stressed, like, it hasn't actually been a

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positive change that they have. This hybrid system is pretty

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widely accepted now and that people can you know, not

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have to be in the office.

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I think what we're seeing is the data is that

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hybrid has become sort of a normal status. We're finding

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even if we just look at this purely capitalists you

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know analysis. This is research out of Stanford from Nick Bloom,

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and he looks at kind of what is the ideal

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situation for this hybrid remote conversation fully in the office,

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and what he's found from the data is that hybrid

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is the most ideal. That fully remote is not, you know,

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the best from a financial standpoint. If he's an economist,

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so he's looking at it from that standpoint. Fully in

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person is actually not that, you know, that's it's not

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the best way from a purely revenue generating growth competitiveness standpoint.

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And his research, along with other research, looked at the

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sort of optimal kind of I guess model, and it's

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two days in the office, three days out of the office,

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and two days in the office should be more about

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moments that matter. It should be collaborative, it should be

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work that is focused on team building. It's supposed to

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be onboarding, and you utilize the time in the office

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to really be with one another another, have fun even

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just you know, like have lunch together and do that

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kind of work. And so it's rethinking what the office

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looks like. This is ideal, and they have found that

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this kind of model three days out, two days in

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increases productivity by twelve percent. It also retains your highest performers.

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It also is inclusive of women. There's just all these

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benefits to it. And so I think the real problem

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is that we're sending people back in the office and

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just replicating what it would be like from home. Right

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you're just you know, on zoom all day and then

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but you're in the office with the community. It's just terrible.

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So that's what we're getting wrong.

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And probably not even having your own disk to see that,

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because right, you know, I have sold half of the building.

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It really is so weird that we wouldn't think that

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you have the biggest disruption. I think that the pandemic

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was the biggest workforce disruption, even more than AI, even

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more than email, even more than.

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The first office. Like, this is a massive disruption. This

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is not the future of work. This is the multiverse

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of work. Where Like we jumped a timeline, and so

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the idea that we shouldn't kind of configure a new strategy,

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that we should just kind of pull in the old

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way of working. It just feels so it just really

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feels naive to me.

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And what people are doing is that what organizations are

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basically doing, they're not really on board with this optimal way.

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We're seeing more with hybrid that it is three days,

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and then there's a desire to kind of inch up

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to four days, but you're still considered hybrid because you're

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four days. A lot of the financial institutions we're seeing

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now trying to get everyone back. You see Amazon pulling

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everyone back to five days, and all the data says

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that it actually is reducing productivity and you lose people,

319
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you lose your best people, unfortunately, so then they go

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to places that offer flexibility, and then it decreases morale.

321
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And the thing is if you don't actually use those

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two days, if you're in the optimal situation where you're

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still replicating the home experience, what they're finding is people

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are less social because they're so time starved. And when

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you're feeling this level of time starvation, the last thing

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you want to do is meet for lunch, because that

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means now you have to finish your work and your

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pajamas at eleven o'clock at night, or you know, you

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don't want to engage in this after work because you know,

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you haven't even been able to read either, go pee

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during the day because you're in so many meetings that

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I think is really leading to this gap in our relationships,

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which is foundational to happiness. We don't have time for

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each other. We don't have anyone in leadership saying I'm

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going to you know, give you time to do this,

336
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and that is creating this real disconnect. There are companies

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that are doing a good job of it, though, so

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it's not just it's it's novel, but it is there

339
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and I've seen it.

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You just said about the social relationships that are so important,

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and I was just thinking that again with the remote working,

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and the one of the objections that I've heard is,

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you know, the like the lack of trust in people,

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this idea that if people are at home that they

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won't be that they won't be working. And not just

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that that is I mean, you can tell me whether

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that is incorrect, that they're not working, but the impact

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of the lack of trust in people's level of satisfaction

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with work.

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This is so frustrating to me. The more that we

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even increase this bus wear monitoring of people and how

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they work, and looking at key strokes and even people

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that are coming key strokes, key strokes or video there's

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really sure that they're sitting at their desk. There's things too.

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It's you know, this whole idea of past keys, and

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they're now trying to kind of clamp down on people

357
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just badging in but then not actually staying, and so

358
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now they're monitoring where they are in the building. I mean,

359
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it's just there's so many things that I don't understand

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why we're so afraid that people aren't getting their work done.

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And the thing is is that's not an individual problem.

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This is a leadership problem. Have you set the right

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goals for that person? Why are you measuring hours? Why

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are you measuring the physical presence of people and not

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looking at what are the objectives for that person to

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complete in the day? And who cares how they get there.

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Do you have a really good relationship with your manager

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and they have good you know, you have good conversations

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at the end of the week to make sure that

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you're meeting those objectives. That should be the way that

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we empower people, and yet we instead we monitor them

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and we make them feel like a child. And that

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is one of the things that I heard from a

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senior executive and I wish I could remember her name,

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but of course it's you know, this great female leader

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her and she says, you know, we hired adults to

377
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come into work. Why are we cheat treating them like children.

378
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It's not like coming to school. You know, we don't

379
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need to take attendance and you know, make sure that

380
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we have these breaks for lunch and recess. It really

381
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is that they are grown ups, a lot of them

382
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with you know, great education or really specialized skills, and

383
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we're afraid that they're not working. That is, we're just

384
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not doing a good job of managing goal setting and

385
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goal achievement exactly.

386
00:21:35.799 --> 00:21:38.240
I need to ask you then, do you see or

387
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does the research bear out a generational difference in the

388
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:45.960
attitudes that people have and actually further to that, like

389
00:21:46.039 --> 00:21:49.240
and just in drivers, like what makes people happy at work?

390
00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:51.599
What are the generational There's a lot of questions in there,

391
00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:55.519
but what's the difference gen x gen Z and you.

392
00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:57.720
Know that you know, the U curve of happiness in

393
00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:00.640
people's lives, right, and that sort of shift, which is

394
00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:03.200
really interesting because it used to be young, people were happy,

395
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and then you had a dip in your midlife, and

396
00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:08.480
then seventy is the happiest you've ever been in your life.

397
00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:11.720
I love that you have grand You have grandkids so

398
00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:15.640
you can send them home. You aren't working anymore, You're

399
00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:18.960
still very active, right, so you've got this great quality

400
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:21.960
of life. So I always share this this slide with people,

401
00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:24.160
and I'm like, I'm sorry, exers, you're in the trough

402
00:22:24.279 --> 00:22:28.079
of despair. You are like the least happiest. But what

403
00:22:28.519 --> 00:22:31.920
is so fascinating, and you see this at work, is

404
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:35.960
we're seeing kind of this all groups feeling frustrated and

405
00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:38.559
feeling like they're so different from each other, and yet

406
00:22:38.599 --> 00:22:41.799
they all want the same thing. And I keep seeing

407
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:44.799
and I've looked at metastas and cross reference data, and

408
00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:49.039
you ask about flexibility, it's like a marginal difference between

409
00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:52.599
how much a gram you know, like someone in their sixties,

410
00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:56.440
because what we're finding is that people in their sixties

411
00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:01.519
right now and their grandparents one in four are primary caregivers.

412
00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:05.440
So this idea that you know that they wouldn't want

413
00:23:05.480 --> 00:23:08.839
graternity benefits. You know, they are talking about these things

414
00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:11.920
that which are starting to come into to play because

415
00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:14.799
we're wanting to make sure we're holding onto our mature workers.

416
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:17.079
I know this is a big thing in the UK

417
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:22.240
right now, is this, you know, keeping mature workers in

418
00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:25.759
the workforce. And there's all these financial incentives that are

419
00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:28.359
being thrown at them, but they're actually they come from

420
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:31.480
a generation of saving and they're all saying, I don't

421
00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:35.119
really need to work. I've set myself up, I own

422
00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:39.160
my home, I've made this plan, and so the financial

423
00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:43.920
incentives aren't working. They are saying, They're like, I'm out

424
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:46.960
of here. Why would I want to be in this workforce?

425
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:49.839
They say, I don't feel like I belong. This is

426
00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:54.319
another really interesting data point where when they surveyed those

427
00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:59.119
that were taking early retirement by choice, they ask them,

428
00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:01.240
you know, like what would made you say stay? And

429
00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:03.319
forty percent of them said that they would have stayed

430
00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:06.759
if they had more continuing education, that they were supported

431
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:10.000
in learning the technology that everyone else knows, but they

432
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:14.920
were bypassed in that training and so they are unhappy.

433
00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:19.519
But you also see gen zs really feeling disconnected. That's

434
00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:22.960
the highest rate of youngism that we've seen in history

435
00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:28.039
of actually analyzing agism. There's really harsh attitudes towards Gen

436
00:24:28.119 --> 00:24:31.799
zs right now, and millennials and exers are getting leap

437
00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:38.960
frogged by their millennial sort of the people that they're leading.

438
00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:42.400
And what's happening is they're succession planning and they're investing

439
00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:45.200
in succession planning, but no one above them, Like we're

440
00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:48.519
not seeing boomers actually looking at xers and saying I'm

441
00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:51.079
going to try to promote you. So it's they're getting stalled,

442
00:24:51.079 --> 00:24:54.519
but millennials are leap frogging them. So I think that

443
00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:59.119
there is a lot of generational frustrations and it's unique

444
00:24:59.200 --> 00:25:03.160
for every generation. But from a happiness standpoint, they're all

445
00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:05.599
feeling like their needs aren't being met.

446
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:08.440
So nobody's happy.

447
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:12.440
Nobody's sadly. When you look at the engagement numbers, I

448
00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:15.480
mean it's the lowest it's been in a decade. Active

449
00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:18.240
disengagement is the highest it's been in a decade. So

450
00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:21.839
the numbers are saying that most people at work are

451
00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:24.599
not satisfied, they're not happy at work.

452
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:29.400
Getting back to that young ism, that attitude towards young

453
00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:33.640
people is, is it that idea that they don't want

454
00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:35.279
to work, they just want to go straight to be

455
00:25:35.319 --> 00:25:37.279
the CEO, the one of stout On six figures that.

456
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:39.400
That is any of that true?

457
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:41.480
Do they have different expectations?

458
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:46.039
They do? And I think that's important to note because

459
00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:51.480
we have to recognize first that every generation, new generation

460
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:54.279
pushes back on the status quo. That's what they do.

461
00:25:54.759 --> 00:25:57.960
And you know what, we have modeled a terrible example

462
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:01.200
of work. Yes, everyone's burned out. They look at their

463
00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:05.720
parents who hate their jobs. They just recently you know,

464
00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:09.559
quit after how lots of people quitting after twenty years,

465
00:26:09.559 --> 00:26:11.880
and they're just like, this is terrible. I'm out of here.

466
00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:16.319
We're seeing the thinnest executive pipeline for women. They're like,

467
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:19.440
I'm bouncing. It's just no one's happy. And so they're

468
00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:23.279
they're thinking, like why would I want to do that? First,

469
00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:29.200
that's terrible. And then also we raised this generation right away.

470
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:31.519
As soon as they could speak, we were asking them

471
00:26:31.559 --> 00:26:35.240
like how they felt about their soother or like give

472
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:39.079
me your opinion, give me your opinion. They could barely

473
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:42.960
speak and we're asking for their opinion, and they were

474
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:47.160
It was like equal relationships. It was all negotiation. And

475
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:52.400
then we wonder, you know, why, why why would we

476
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:57.000
expect them to suddenly be different adults. And it's kind

477
00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:59.920
of like you know, boomers and exers, and I know

478
00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:02.920
I've fallen victims of that until I really understood the

479
00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:07.319
data is that this is correct. Like they come into

480
00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:11.240
this world of work and there's this implicit expectation of them,

481
00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:13.960
but they don't know what that is. And yet why

482
00:27:13.960 --> 00:27:18.799
wouldn't we in that generation, if we have expectations, why

483
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:21.480
wouldn't we coach them on that. Why wouldn't we say

484
00:27:21.880 --> 00:27:24.039
we expect difference. This is one of the things. This

485
00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:26.160
is how you manage up. This is how you manage

486
00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:29.279
conflict if you want to move up. These are the

487
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:31.880
ways that you communicate with your team. This is these

488
00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:34.759
are my preferences. You know, this is a product. Yes

489
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:37.480
I'm a product of my generation, but and I'm willing

490
00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:39.680
to compromise. But this is how I want to be

491
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:42.720
communicated to. I mean, there's ways for us to be

492
00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:46.240
able to just you know, openly share what our communication

493
00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:49.400
needs are. But instead, you know, all you just hear

494
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:52.279
is complaining and grumbling like, oh, gen zs they're so

495
00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:55.559
lazy and entitled and they just always have an opinion.

496
00:27:55.759 --> 00:27:58.799
And you know, I'm the CEO. Why are they interrupting

497
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:01.440
me in a town hall to share their opinion because

498
00:28:01.480 --> 00:28:05.519
they've done that their entire life up until now. Yeah,

499
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:08.359
so we need to get better realizing this is the

500
00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:12.599
product of the way we raised, you know, this generation.

501
00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:16.200
It's also recognizing that they do have a lot of

502
00:28:16.279 --> 00:28:21.200
really cool, interesting things to say, and that they believe

503
00:28:21.319 --> 00:28:26.400
that work life bounce, well being, happiness is not antithetical

504
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:30.200
to work ethic. They believe you can have the you know,

505
00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:32.799
it's dialectical theory that you can have both and two

506
00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:34.839
things can be true at the same time. I can

507
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:37.680
have a well being, I can have a family, I

508
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:39.480
can have friends if that's what I want to do,

509
00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:41.960
I can commit to those things, and I can be

510
00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:46.119
highly driven and ambitious and productive at work. And so

511
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:48.359
they're teaching us that maybe we need to have a

512
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:51.200
new rethink of what that looks like.

513
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:54.880
So interesting, and I almost feel like some of the

514
00:28:54.920 --> 00:28:57.279
older generation it's almost a bit it's not just set

515
00:28:57.319 --> 00:29:00.359
in their ways, it's almost a bit resentful. Had to

516
00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:02.400
do it, you know, it's like that's what I didn't

517
00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:06.519
get to do that or be that, So why should you.

518
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:10.480
You know, there is a lot of that. Unfortunately, there's

519
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:13.599
this is a big part of why I think we're

520
00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:16.240
trying to jam the toothbased back in the tube. When

521
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:19.599
you look at the demographic makeup of the Fortune one thousand,

522
00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:21.839
for example, and there are a lot of the ones

523
00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:25.200
that are going to set precedent for mid market companies

524
00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:28.680
or just any organization. We all look up to that group.

525
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:31.039
They're the ones in the media all the time. But

526
00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:35.200
the demographic makeup, you know, it's ninety three percent white male,

527
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:39.519
fifty eight to sixty five. They have had a certain

528
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:44.880
way of leading. This is uncomfortable. Yeah, it's scary. They

529
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:48.359
don't they haven't they think about the neural wiring of

530
00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:51.759
the brain of a professional that's done that thing, and

531
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:55.240
it's worked for a very long time. Just to rewire

532
00:29:55.319 --> 00:30:01.200
that now at this state in their career feels very difficult,

533
00:30:01.640 --> 00:30:04.519
very challenging. So I have an empathy for that, and

534
00:30:04.599 --> 00:30:10.480
yet it's creating a very unhappy group. And then you hear,

535
00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:13.480
you know, like Andy Jassey from CEO just said, we're

536
00:30:13.480 --> 00:30:15.440
gonna have a smaller workforce. AI is going to make

537
00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:19.440
a smaller workforce, and so that has been creating so

538
00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:22.440
much anxiety in our young people. They have this fear

539
00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:27.359
of being obsolete. It's creating hopelessness because they don't see

540
00:30:27.400 --> 00:30:32.480
that they have a future in the workforce. They are

541
00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:36.160
going to university four years and they're finding that after

542
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:40.599
four years, fifty percent of the careers that you study

543
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:46.160
for are now obsolete. So we need to talk differently

544
00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:49.400
about what the future of work looks like. The happier

545
00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:53.039
version of work is that we're partnering with technology, that

546
00:30:53.079 --> 00:30:57.480
we're not being replaced by them, and that really in

547
00:30:57.559 --> 00:31:02.000
consideration of what would happen if no one was working,

548
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:06.440
how would our society prevail? I mean, how would we

549
00:31:06.519 --> 00:31:11.759
be capitalists anymore? If no one could consume goods exactly.

550
00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:15.799
So this idea of a desire, even a desire to

551
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:20.359
replace humans with technology, it doesn't meet the model of

552
00:31:20.599 --> 00:31:26.240
how we consume goods, our gdp our economic situations. So

553
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:29.839
unless governments around the world are going to completely change that,

554
00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:32.880
we still need human beings in the workforce.

555
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:37.000
It is just expert like, the the rate of changing

556
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:40.680
growth is just it's unprecedented.

557
00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:44.279
It really, I mean, there's not a better word for it.

558
00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:45.519
It is really unprecedented.

559
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:47.759
And so you're right that there are good reasons for

560
00:31:47.799 --> 00:31:50.680
people to feel anxious and uncertain and getting back to

561
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:55.559
we're a whole person. We're not comfortable with uncertainty. We

562
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:58.319
have these basic needs that we need to have met.

563
00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:00.680
I just want to go back to what you said

564
00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:02.480
right at the beginning, because a lot of this has

565
00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:08.039
been about the way organizations set things up with their focus,

566
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:12.839
which is predominantly on profit and are resistant to the

567
00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:16.839
idea that you can have both. You can actually folk,

568
00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:20.720
you can actually have happy people and have profit. In fact,

569
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:27.079
having a happier, more satisfied workforce leads to higher levels

570
00:32:27.079 --> 00:32:27.559
of profit.

571
00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:29.559
Is this that is accurate?

572
00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:30.359
This is accurate.

573
00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:33.880
You can see that in the Oxford Well Being Research,

574
00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:37.400
a new book by Jan Emmanuel Denev and George Ward.

575
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:41.960
They talk about not just the correlation to happiness and

576
00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:47.000
well being and business outcomes, they talk about the causal relationship.

577
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:49.759
And you know, researchers and academics do not use that

578
00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:54.400
word lately, like they're constantly kind of creating words that

579
00:32:55.079 --> 00:32:58.599
parson around that because they are peer reviewed and so

580
00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:01.920
it's important to see that are saying there's direct links.

581
00:33:02.440 --> 00:33:04.720
We measured it. You can see it, you can see

582
00:33:04.759 --> 00:33:07.240
it in you know in sales revenue. You can see

583
00:33:07.240 --> 00:33:12.240
it in competitiveness. Raj Sosodia wrote Firms of Endearment and

584
00:33:12.279 --> 00:33:16.359
it's about conscious capitalism. He shows that there's a fifteen

585
00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:20.960
hundred percent increase in those organizations that focus on this

586
00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:26.720
well being and mental health and saving the planet and

587
00:33:26.759 --> 00:33:31.079
like really good goals that feel like value based goals.

588
00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:34.000
They outperform the S and P five hundred by fifteen

589
00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:38.920
hundred percent. I mean, it's significant, but we don't I

590
00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:41.480
don't understand. This is something for me that I haven't

591
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:46.480
quite figured out yet why this hasn't changed. And I

592
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:49.599
think I get different opinions. But one of the things

593
00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:55.559
is that it's a lot of organizational leadership at the

594
00:33:55.559 --> 00:33:58.599
C level do not know how to measure it really

595
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:01.720
well and measure it quickly to be able to then

596
00:34:03.480 --> 00:34:08.079
respond quarterly to shareholders, to people that matter. It's like,

597
00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:10.880
now we have this urgency of reporting all the time,

598
00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:13.639
and it's such a big part of the way that

599
00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:19.360
we that we evolve that now we can't take long

600
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:22.119
term strategies and really look at how we measure them

601
00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:25.559
over time. There's some organizations doing it really well, like

602
00:34:25.639 --> 00:34:28.519
Hilton is a really great example Laura Fuentes, who is

603
00:34:28.599 --> 00:34:32.679
the chro. She knew that they wanted to invest in Thriving.

604
00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:37.079
She spent five years just looking at the hygiene, fixing

605
00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:40.960
the hygiene. And to take five years and be trusted

606
00:34:41.079 --> 00:34:44.000
with that. I mean they're a huge company. I mean

607
00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:48.119
they're beholden to shareholders, and yet she said, you just

608
00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:50.320
have to trust me. And she was working on this

609
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:54.360
through before the pandemic, and how they handled a crisis

610
00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:59.679
compared to other competitors was phenomenal and that was because

611
00:34:59.719 --> 00:35:03.000
of that work. And so then after now this thrive

612
00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:07.920
is truly remarkable and they are just constantly rated in

613
00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:10.119
all of the lists of best companies to work for

614
00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:14.000
and their employees love them, and and that is because

615
00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:16.639
she believed in the long term strategy.

616
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:19.760
And the bottom line hasn't stuffered it.

617
00:35:20.119 --> 00:35:24.320
They've exactly, they've only exponentially grown. I mean, they have

618
00:35:24.519 --> 00:35:28.840
such a strong connection to their employees, but they also

619
00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:31.079
have a huge fan base, and a lot of that

620
00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:33.920
also has to do with the fact that they've brought

621
00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:36.119
in their employees, which are you know, one hundreds of

622
00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:39.320
thousand employees, but they've brought their families in and they

623
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:42.679
have this this high you know, net promoter score because

624
00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:46.400
people recommend you working there, but also family members are

625
00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:49.920
like they become loyal fans of the company and the brand,

626
00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:53.599
and so you have to have a long term vision

627
00:35:53.639 --> 00:35:58.159
because the outcome down the line is exponential, you know,

628
00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:02.880
business outcomes that you can never imagine. But it really

629
00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:06.159
is about believing that the leader can take you there

630
00:36:06.440 --> 00:36:08.360
and giving them the runway to do it.

631
00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:11.000
A lot of this really relies on it sounds like

632
00:36:11.039 --> 00:36:14.920
it's a bit of an uphill battle getting leadership to

633
00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:18.519
recognize this, to appreciate this, and to be willing to

634
00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:23.239
invest in these strategies, these happiness strategies. For somebody who

635
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:26.039
is working in an organization who is not happy, who

636
00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:27.719
doesn't feel like they're trust it doesn't feel like they

637
00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:31.360
have a sense of purpose, but they're not appreciated. What

638
00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:34.199
can they do though? But back to the choose happiness thing,

639
00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:37.039
but like, really, what are people's options if they're not

640
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:39.840
happy at work? Because somebody listening to this podcast is

641
00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:41.800
going to go, well, that's all well and good, but

642
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:45.519
they're not up the line. They're not doing anything about this,

643
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:47.840
So what can I personally do?

644
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:50.440
So this is a really good question, because I do

645
00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:52.599
look at it in a quadrant. You know, you have

646
00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:57.800
policies and good policies that help create a society and

647
00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:01.559
a workplace that's happier. Break to connect laws and pay

648
00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:03.960
transparents for in those kinds of things, so that helps.

649
00:37:04.519 --> 00:37:08.519
And then yes, executive leadership they play a very big

650
00:37:08.599 --> 00:37:11.679
role in just giving permission. But like, look at the

651
00:37:11.719 --> 00:37:15.599
manager they have around. You know, the variance of someone's

652
00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:19.840
engagement is around seventy percent in the manager's control. So

653
00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:24.559
whether we're happy or sad, managers have seventy percent of

654
00:37:24.639 --> 00:37:28.599
that variability, that variance, So they play a huge role.

655
00:37:28.639 --> 00:37:30.480
So even if you have all this stuff going on,

656
00:37:31.239 --> 00:37:33.280
you know at the executive level, and it's not perfect

657
00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:36.239
or policies aren't perfect, you as a manager can still

658
00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:40.000
you know, engage your team of three or five and

659
00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:42.800
you do that by making small adjustments. I mean, we're

660
00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:45.840
all tired of meetings. Ask people how they're feeling, what's

661
00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:48.760
burning them out? They say meetings. Cut down meetings by

662
00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:52.760
twenty percent. Measure job satisfaction before a quarter or later,

663
00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:55.360
do a measure if it's improved, keep doing it. Like,

664
00:37:55.639 --> 00:37:58.199
there's a lot that managers can do that are free

665
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:01.039
and easy, they can pilot that, they can gather data

666
00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:03.519
so then they can advocate and get other you know,

667
00:38:03.559 --> 00:38:06.360
managers to be involved. So there's a lot of control

668
00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:09.159
at that level. And then as an individual, we're in

669
00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:13.039
that quadrant you know, manager here, we're here. We still

670
00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:17.000
have to go to work without learned helplessness. I mean,

671
00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:19.239
we can't just go to our manager and say like,

672
00:38:19.320 --> 00:38:22.079
I'm stressed, I'm burned out. We need to spend a

673
00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:25.599
couple of weeks really going through that self awareness of

674
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:29.119
what is causing my burnout? Is it workload? Is it

675
00:38:29.239 --> 00:38:32.280
that I feel like I'm overlooked for promotions all the time?

676
00:38:32.599 --> 00:38:34.920
Is it lack of fairness? There's a decision or an

677
00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:38.480
arbitrary decision that was made, like going back to the office,

678
00:38:38.519 --> 00:38:40.440
and I do not want to do that. That has

679
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:42.920
made me feel like I have no autonomy or agency.

680
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:46.039
You know, what are those things? So understand what those

681
00:38:46.599 --> 00:38:49.480
you know, issues are, address them, and then also spend

682
00:38:49.480 --> 00:38:51.440
a couple of weeks going through the things that are

683
00:38:51.480 --> 00:38:54.239
like the pebbles, because the pebbles turn to boulders, that's

684
00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:56.199
what actually creates a lot of stress. So is it

685
00:38:56.800 --> 00:38:58.760
you know, you add a new technology come in and

686
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:01.480
you don't really know how to use it very well,

687
00:39:01.519 --> 00:39:03.079
but you don't want to put up your hand to

688
00:39:03.119 --> 00:39:06.079
say it's creating thirty percent more work for me every day.

689
00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:11.000
A lot of stress comes from inefficiencies and overprocess. Maybe

690
00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:14.440
it's a lack of resource, Maybe it's a toxic co worker,

691
00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:18.119
you know, maybe it's like you're feeling micromanaged by your boss.

692
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:21.199
There's lots of things that it could be contributing to

693
00:39:21.320 --> 00:39:24.599
that stress and burnout. Spend some time coming up with

694
00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:27.000
some solutions, you know, like, don't just go to your

695
00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:30.159
manager or then go around them and go to HR.

696
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:33.960
Spend some time and actually think about what kind of

697
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:36.679
solutions can I bring to my manager. And if they're

698
00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:39.159
open to it, and they're a good boss, they're just

699
00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:41.199
so busy themselves, they're not paying attention to you as

700
00:39:41.239 --> 00:39:44.880
much as they should, they'll help you succeed. If it's

701
00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:48.159
a bad boss who doesn't want to help you, you know,

702
00:39:48.280 --> 00:39:52.519
that's probably going to be a constant. And so these

703
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:54.840
are the things where it's like we just still need

704
00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:58.199
to choose happiness by owning, you know, what is in

705
00:39:58.239 --> 00:40:00.639
the locus of our control. What can we own, what

706
00:40:00.679 --> 00:40:04.400
do we know? How can we really investigate the things

707
00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:07.559
that are bothering us? And then once we slowly go

708
00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:10.480
through the process of solving them, we get more time back.

709
00:40:10.599 --> 00:40:12.599
Then we can infess more in self care. Then we

710
00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:15.599
can participate in a program that's you know, we're really

711
00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:19.400
aligned with another ERG or volunteer, and so it's an

712
00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:22.960
incremental journey. But we have to start with ourselves to

713
00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:26.199
come to our you know, to our leaders with really

714
00:40:26.239 --> 00:40:31.360
good ideas and really creative solutions, and they'll, hopefully, if

715
00:40:31.400 --> 00:40:33.760
they're good leaders, they'll respond positively.

716
00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:38.280
So important, and just what you said about having taking

717
00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:40.880
back some sense of agency, I mean, just just having

718
00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:45.239
a sense of agency is so important for people's mental health.

719
00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:49.159
You're right, I think that's even just doing that exercise

720
00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:53.480
makes you feel like, oh I can see this. Oh no,

721
00:40:53.599 --> 00:40:57.719
that's that isn't my you know, my fault, Like okay,

722
00:40:57.800 --> 00:41:00.199
I didn't get the proper training. There no wonder this

723
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:04.079
is happening. Or yeah, this person is constantly calling me

724
00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:07.440
last minute to solve problems for them, and I have

725
00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:09.920
a million other things and I don't want to say no.

726
00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:14.400
My boss probably doesn't know that this other person over

727
00:41:14.440 --> 00:41:17.679
there that shouldn't be asking me to help them. They

728
00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:20.039
probably don't even know that, but I'm saying yes because

729
00:41:20.039 --> 00:41:22.800
I feel pressure. These are the kind of things that

730
00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:28.400
make you exhausted. And if you are able to think, okay,

731
00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:32.119
maybe I can as a team with my leader or

732
00:41:32.199 --> 00:41:34.880
with a co worker, we can solve these problems together,

733
00:41:35.559 --> 00:41:39.000
you start to feel this sense of hopefulness. Hope is

734
00:41:39.039 --> 00:41:42.360
really about goal setting and achieving goals, right, So it's

735
00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:45.280
tiny goals. So it's like solving tiny problems all the time,

736
00:41:45.639 --> 00:41:48.239
which builds up that cognitive hope, which builds up our

737
00:41:48.440 --> 00:41:50.480
self efficacy and our happiness.

738
00:41:51.239 --> 00:41:52.679
You know what occurred to me as you were talking,

739
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:54.000
when you were going through all of the things that

740
00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:55.760
might cause you burn out, and I know you said

741
00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:57.760
this in the book as well, is that when people

742
00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:00.480
list the things that cause them to be unhappy at work,

743
00:42:01.159 --> 00:42:03.480
such a huge percentage of them to do with people.

744
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:06.559
It's relationships and how we interact with each other in

745
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:12.119
the workplace has a massive impact on how satisfied we are.

746
00:42:13.159 --> 00:42:15.920
Yes in the first or the first book and then

747
00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:18.400
an on the burnout epidemic, I did some research on

748
00:42:19.239 --> 00:42:23.000
toxic relationships at work and there's been several studies that

749
00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:26.320
have found that it actually decreases your lifespan when you

750
00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:29.679
have a toxic relationship at work because we spend so

751
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:31.519
much time there. And I thought like they were talking

752
00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:35.239
about losing like three years off your life if you

753
00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:40.199
have poor relationships at work. And because it isn't just

754
00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:42.719
okay you have a friend that you get mad at

755
00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:45.239
and maybe you don't spend time with. If you have

756
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:48.719
someone that's a bully in your life or is really

757
00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:53.159
unkind and you have to show up and spend eight

758
00:42:53.239 --> 00:42:58.239
ten hours every single day around that person, it's pretty catastrophic.

759
00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:01.480
So that's you know, on the side, there's real impact,

760
00:43:01.480 --> 00:43:06.800
but having close friendships is unbelievably special. There was this

761
00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:10.320
really cool Cornell study that I love. It found that

762
00:43:10.360 --> 00:43:13.599
twenty minutes of having lunch with someone you like once

763
00:43:13.639 --> 00:43:15.880
a week, just away from your desk, twenty minutes once

764
00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:18.920
a week, had this huge impact on your well being,

765
00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:22.440
on your morale, You made less mistakes, you had higher

766
00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:26.719
team cohesion, safety risks went down when they measured this

767
00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:30.880
with firefighters in different houses. I mean, it was incredible

768
00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:33.400
to think that, you know, just twenty minutes of having

769
00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:36.679
that share bomb can be the thing that makes you

770
00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:37.400
love your job.

771
00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:43.800
So I love that so action double and so meaningful,

772
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:47.719
just to highlight to people how important that is those

773
00:43:48.119 --> 00:43:49.519
positive social connections.

774
00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:51.880
Yeah, and there's this other great study that I love.

775
00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:56.280
It's about spreading positive gossip, so you talk really nicely

776
00:43:56.559 --> 00:44:01.039
behind people's backs. And they did this research and found

777
00:44:01.079 --> 00:44:05.679
that in these organizations where they practiced positive gossip that

778
00:44:05.920 --> 00:44:11.760
onboarding was exponentially increased in the time people felt comfortable

779
00:44:11.960 --> 00:44:15.280
in their roles. And a big reason for that was

780
00:44:15.639 --> 00:44:19.800
this this great increase in innovation and psychological psychological safety

781
00:44:19.880 --> 00:44:24.679
was people believed, which you know, perception is reality. People

782
00:44:24.760 --> 00:44:27.320
perceived that people were saying nice things about them behind

783
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:30.880
their bag. So maybe that wasn't happening, but they thought that,

784
00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:33.920
and so it made them feel so confident, so optimistic,

785
00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:38.079
and so well cared for. And it's another thing like

786
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:41.119
how easy it is for us to say nice things

787
00:44:41.159 --> 00:44:44.079
behind each other's bags. I mean, it's so lovely.

788
00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:46.400
I love that we should all do that.

789
00:44:46.480 --> 00:44:49.440
We should all just just in life generally say nice

790
00:44:49.480 --> 00:44:53.360
things about.

791
00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:54.559
And then there's another thing which I love is you

792
00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:58.199
know how to give an optimize compliment for well being

793
00:44:58.320 --> 00:45:01.639
for happiness, and we often at work we were told

794
00:45:01.639 --> 00:45:03.480
to give kudos or you give a you know, a

795
00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:06.880
good job or emoji it's like great, great job. And

796
00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:09.639
what they're finding is people think that's okay, but it

797
00:45:09.679 --> 00:45:13.320
starts to lose its value over time. And so what

798
00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:17.400
we need to be doing is empathetic listening and then compassion,

799
00:45:17.400 --> 00:45:20.440
which is you know, compassion is empathy and listening, but

800
00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:24.320
then turning it into action. So instead, in your next

801
00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:28.360
meeting where you hear something really cool or delightful, you'll say,

802
00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:32.400
you know, hey, Cas, that was this is me talking

803
00:45:32.400 --> 00:45:34.440
to you. Well, we're ten, we're role playing here, go

804
00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:37.280
on here, yes, yes, So Cas, I love what you

805
00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:40.800
told the group about this project that you're working on,

806
00:45:40.840 --> 00:45:44.159
and that data is actually really fascinating. I'm going to

807
00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:46.079
bring that back to my team and we're going to

808
00:45:46.239 --> 00:45:48.199
like play around with that, and then I'm going to

809
00:45:48.280 --> 00:45:50.199
tell you how it worked out, because I just thought

810
00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:53.280
it's going to be very useful for me. That took

811
00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:57.840
fifteen twenty seconds. But you're telling someone I listen to you.

812
00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:00.840
I think what you have to say is interesting, that

813
00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:03.679
you're passionate about this, and so now I care about

814
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:06.239
that thing you're passionate about. Now, I'm going to go

815
00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:09.480
and mobilize that. And I'm also going to increase your

816
00:46:09.519 --> 00:46:11.639
profile because I'm going to be bragging about what great

817
00:46:11.639 --> 00:46:14.599
stuff you're doing. I mean, these are things that we

818
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:19.440
don't realize, like that's so impactful to someone in their career,

819
00:46:19.559 --> 00:46:25.519
and it's fifteen seconds longer than kudos or great job.

820
00:46:25.880 --> 00:46:29.000
I love that the tactics are so simple. We tend

821
00:46:29.039 --> 00:46:31.679
to try to make them more complex than they are.

822
00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:34.440
But happiness is really about the simplicity.

823
00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:38.639
The point that you raise straight up in the new book,

824
00:46:38.719 --> 00:46:42.639
the ten year anniversary edition of the book is that

825
00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:45.000
fundamentally it boils down to kindness.

826
00:46:46.199 --> 00:46:51.599
Yes one. And I'm citing research out of Oxford again.

827
00:46:51.639 --> 00:46:55.360
Oxford well Being Institute looked at the well being programs

828
00:46:56.280 --> 00:46:59.480
that failed and the ones that were neutral, and then

829
00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:02.400
the ones that were the most successful, and they found

830
00:47:02.440 --> 00:47:08.039
that resiliency training actually is detrimental to people's wellbeing. Interesting,

831
00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:14.920
very interesting. I thought that was especially for salary professionals

832
00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:18.280
and even worse for women. And so one of the

833
00:47:18.400 --> 00:47:22.119
reasons why is that it feels tone deaf. People are

834
00:47:22.159 --> 00:47:25.440
feeling like I'm working seventy hours. I'm taking this two

835
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:28.599
hour resiliency training to be resilient from what you making

836
00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:32.000
me work seventy hours exactly. And because there's so much

837
00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:34.800
unpaid labor for women and they have that second shift,

838
00:47:35.199 --> 00:47:38.000
it's forcing them to take time away from family, and

839
00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:43.000
it just it feels very unsettling that they're investing this

840
00:47:43.079 --> 00:47:46.440
time in something that is being caused by the people

841
00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:49.679
that are training them. So that's a thing, but a

842
00:47:49.719 --> 00:47:52.400
lot of the other stuff is neutral. There's a lot

843
00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:56.760
of conversation around unconscious bias training and how that's really

844
00:47:56.800 --> 00:48:01.039
causing a lot of dissonance and disco Actually it's not

845
00:48:01.159 --> 00:48:04.320
working to bring people together. Really, they're finding that it

846
00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:08.519
makes people feel shamed, and so it's a bit of

847
00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:12.239
why fragility. There is a level of that, But I

848
00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:14.599
think that what happens when we do that is just

849
00:48:14.679 --> 00:48:17.360
we just continue to other. A better way to do

850
00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:20.920
it is to amplify great people with great ideas. And

851
00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:23.880
a lot of great people with great ideas are from

852
00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:29.559
diverse backgrounds, So it's about amplification and augmentation versus deficit.

853
00:48:30.360 --> 00:48:33.679
And so you know, starting to think about doing more

854
00:48:33.719 --> 00:48:37.800
as a leader and focusing on amplifying great ideas, and

855
00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:40.719
it's important for us to look for the ideas and

856
00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:44.840
make sure we're amplifying the ideas of all audiences. And

857
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:48.519
then it becomes not like, you know, the female Entrepreneur

858
00:48:48.519 --> 00:48:51.159
of the Year award, it's the Entrepreneur of the Year award,

859
00:48:51.239 --> 00:48:54.000
and you're you know, a black single mom. You know,

860
00:48:54.119 --> 00:48:57.239
like that is the most burned out demographic because they

861
00:48:57.320 --> 00:49:00.519
feel very unseen and they don't also have the privilege

862
00:49:00.559 --> 00:49:04.320
of just quitting something's going wrong. They fight so hard

863
00:49:04.360 --> 00:49:07.280
to be able to have status. That's what we should

864
00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:11.440
be doing is taking ideas from those groups and amplifying them.

865
00:49:11.719 --> 00:49:14.159
But one of the things that is back to this

866
00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:18.719
in a roundabout way is altruism is the best well

867
00:49:18.760 --> 00:49:22.679
being investment that you can make. And it is sort

868
00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:24.960
of a cultural thing. It sounds sort of nebulous, like

869
00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:28.239
how do we build altruism? But in organizations where you're

870
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:32.000
just really putting other people first and you're thinking about

871
00:49:32.239 --> 00:49:37.639
how they might feel in situations, you're also kind of

872
00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:40.719
doing for your coworkers and your peers, you're kind of

873
00:49:40.760 --> 00:49:43.159
doing those extra things to help them. You're asking like,

874
00:49:43.239 --> 00:49:46.719
what can I do to make you this problem go away,

875
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:48.599
or what can we do for each other to make

876
00:49:48.599 --> 00:49:50.679
next week a bit easier? You know, these are the

877
00:49:50.760 --> 00:49:53.199
kind of things that I say, build into a weekly meeting.

878
00:49:53.440 --> 00:49:56.280
Ask people what lights them up, ask people what stresses

879
00:49:56.280 --> 00:49:58.559
them out, and then altogether you go, what can we

880
00:49:58.599 --> 00:50:01.880
do to make next week? It's the kind of idea

881
00:50:01.880 --> 00:50:05.000
of buying the person behind you a coffee, you know,

882
00:50:05.119 --> 00:50:08.000
those kinds of attitudes of just like, I want to

883
00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:11.400
do a nice thing for someone today, and I'm going

884
00:50:11.480 --> 00:50:14.920
to do that by helping level you up in your career, mentoring,

885
00:50:15.079 --> 00:50:18.599
peer support, asking someone to teach you things, so you're

886
00:50:18.639 --> 00:50:21.519
asking for their knowledge, you're complimenting them in a way

887
00:50:21.559 --> 00:50:26.519
that's really you know again amplified. And so these are

888
00:50:26.559 --> 00:50:29.840
the things when you have an altruistic culture that really

889
00:50:29.920 --> 00:50:32.320
leads to higher well being and happiness.

890
00:50:32.719 --> 00:50:36.960
How interesting, And I'm assuming because the research generally about

891
00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:39.880
kindness is that the person the well being is improved,

892
00:50:39.880 --> 00:50:41.880
not just for the recipient of the contact, but the

893
00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:44.599
person doing the contact, like their well being improves as well.

894
00:50:44.639 --> 00:50:47.320
So I imagine that's no different in an organization that

895
00:50:47.480 --> 00:50:49.559
everybody's benefiting.

896
00:50:49.920 --> 00:50:51.880
It's so true, and you know, you know, you know,

897
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:54.880
social contagions and network effect. I mean, I love still

898
00:50:54.920 --> 00:50:59.000
the Christakis Fowler, you know, Yale Harvard study of social contagions,

899
00:50:59.079 --> 00:51:02.079
and and what I think is so cool about their

900
00:51:02.119 --> 00:51:05.159
research is that if there's people around you proximal that

901
00:51:05.239 --> 00:51:09.360
are happy and feeling good and optimistic, it spreads and

902
00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:12.679
so you're doing a nice thing, it makes you feel good,

903
00:51:12.760 --> 00:51:15.199
kind of like that Friend's episode where Phoebe's trying to

904
00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:19.079
like not be selfish as she's being selfless, and she

905
00:51:19.199 --> 00:51:22.000
realizes she can't because it just feels so good to

906
00:51:22.039 --> 00:51:26.000
do nice things. But it is that that becomes a contagion.

907
00:51:26.039 --> 00:51:28.840
Then you have a network effect of people then doing

908
00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:31.360
nicer things for each other they know it feels good.

909
00:51:31.920 --> 00:51:34.599
It's all this pro social kind of give and take,

910
00:51:35.239 --> 00:51:39.519
and then the culture starts to slowly shift and you

911
00:51:39.559 --> 00:51:42.679
feel it and that becomes the norm, and you're creating

912
00:51:42.679 --> 00:51:46.400
these social norms that are pushing kind of maladaptive behaviors

913
00:51:46.440 --> 00:51:50.559
away and really increasing that pro sociality. And they've found

914
00:51:50.559 --> 00:51:53.519
that in a crisis, if you have a pro social organization,

915
00:51:54.320 --> 00:51:57.400
what tends to happen, especially in a pandemic where it's

916
00:51:57.400 --> 00:52:02.559
mortality facing. The research fine mean that mortality science or

917
00:52:02.599 --> 00:52:09.400
crisis actually completely explodes those behaviors that you currently have.

918
00:52:09.960 --> 00:52:12.920
It's this idea of post traumatic growth. So if you

919
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:16.039
create that culture and you hit a crisis, it actually

920
00:52:16.079 --> 00:52:16.920
makes you better.

921
00:52:17.360 --> 00:52:17.760
Wow.

922
00:52:17.880 --> 00:52:22.239
And if you have the opposite, it doubles down on that.

923
00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:25.079
So it makes you so much more polarized, so much

924
00:52:25.119 --> 00:52:29.599
more critical and cynical, and engagement plummets. So we want

925
00:52:29.639 --> 00:52:34.039
to actually build this kind of happiness up so that

926
00:52:34.159 --> 00:52:37.239
if we face a crisis, which I feel like we're

927
00:52:37.239 --> 00:52:40.840
probably going to face another crisis, and that they're happening

928
00:52:40.920 --> 00:52:44.360
much more frequently, that this is a really good strategy

929
00:52:44.360 --> 00:52:47.360
to have to be able to weather these storms so

930
00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:49.559
so much better. I'm not just like weather them, it's

931
00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:52.320
like come out deriving from them.

932
00:52:53.039 --> 00:52:57.039
This has been so interesting, Jen, I really appreciate you

933
00:52:57.119 --> 00:52:59.239
making the time. Thank you so much for being here.

934
00:52:59.679 --> 00:53:02.639
I loved this conversation, and thank you so much for

935
00:53:02.679 --> 00:53:05.119
bringing me into your studio. This just has mean it's

936
00:53:05.159 --> 00:53:07.559
so much more fun. Thank you, No, you're welcome.

937
00:53:09.199 --> 00:53:12.119
Crappy to Happy is created and produced by me castun.

938
00:53:12.280 --> 00:53:14.320
If you enjoy the show, please hit the follow button

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wherever you listen to ensure you never miss an episode.

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Share with a friend to get me into the.

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Ease of more lovely listeners, and I would love for

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you to leave a five star rating and review. Thank

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you so much for being here and I cannot wait

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to catch you next week for another fabulous episode of

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Crappy to Happy