June 18, 2024

What it's like being a Neurodiverse Woman with Monique Mitchelson

What it's like being a Neurodiverse Woman with Monique Mitchelson
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What it's like being a Neurodiverse Woman with Monique Mitchelson
What it's like being a Neurodiverse Woman with Monique Mitchelson
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Season 12 Psychology & Neuroscience Women's Health And Wellbeing ADHD

Cass chats with Monique Mitchelson, a clinical psychologist and host of The Neurodivergent Woman podcast, about neurodiversity in women, specifically autism and ADHD. Monique shares that neurodivergence is often under-diagnosed, especially in girls and that many women are doing life in 'hard mode' when they don't have an accurate diagnosis.Monique shares some of the masking and compensatory strategies that neurodivergent individuals often use to navigate a neurotypical world.
The conversation explores the challenges in receiving a diagnosis and accessing appropriate support. It delves into the social model of disability and the importance of creating an inclusive and accessible society for neurodivergent individuals. The high prevalence of co-occurring mental health conditions and physical health issues is discussed, along with the need for appropriate support and understanding. 
Connect with Monique and check out The Neurodivergent Woman podcast.
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
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Transcript
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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host Castunn.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist. I'm mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In

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this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

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people who are experts in their field and who have

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something of value to share that will help you feel

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less crappy and more happy. Hello and welcome. Before I

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jump in to today's episode, I just wanted to say

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thank you so much to everybody who has been messaging

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me and been in touch supporting me with my alcohol

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free goal. I am very happy to come back this

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week and report that I am staying strong. So we've

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crossed the two week mark now, and I feel great

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apart from having a head cold and having sciatica, both

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of which are slowly improving. Apart from those two things,

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I am feeling really good. And I was just saying

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to my daughter yesterday that I feel like I have

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slipped back into not drinking just as easily as I

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slipped back into drinking. And what I attribute that to, honestly,

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is what I said last week about building that muscle memory,

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like having that lived experience and it being kind of

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familiar to me now to just not drink, even after

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almost two years of being back kind of drinking fairly regularly.

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So on that I just wanted to say to you,

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if you are one of those people who is on

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this path, if you're thinking about giving up or even

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breaking any habit, you know. I even had people messaging

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me who are not drinkers, but they've got other habits

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that they feel like they need to break, things that

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they're doing really compulsively that they know is bad for them,

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and they struggle to break the habit. So in that

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year before I stopped drinking for good when I said

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for good, obviously two years almost, but before I took

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that really extended break, I had spent more time not

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drinking than drinking. But it was on off, on off.

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I'd have a week break, I'd feel really good, and

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then i'd go out and catch up with friends and

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I would drink again. I'd have another couple of weeks off,

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and then I would give into a craving and I

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would drink again. And this was just an on off

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thing until it went off permanently. And I attribute my

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being able to stop and stay stopped for a really

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long time to all of those little periods of not

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drinking and building that muscle memory and having that experience

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and my body and brain getting used to not reaching

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for a glass of wine when I normally would and

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just slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly creating a new different way.

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So I think we focus so much on the slip

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ups and the setbacks and when we don't do what

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we said we were going to do, and I would

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really encourage you to focus on all of the times

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that you do do what you said you were going

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to do, even if you have a slip up, even

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if you had a setback. It's fine.

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That is normal.

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That is because you're a human being, and that is

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that is how change happens. I've talked about this before

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on the podcast. So that's what happens, that's how it goes.

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It's perfectly fine. Focus on all of those little baby

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steps and all those periods that you're building up of

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practicing breaking that habit. So that's all I wanted to say.

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Thank you for support, really really appreciate it. Now let's

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get onto today's episode. Today my guest is Monique Mitchelson.

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So she is a clinical psychologist. She is a neurodivergent woman,

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and she is one half. She's a co host of

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the Neurodivergent Woman podcast, which is enormously successful. She's got

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a real interest in how neurodiversity presents in women and girls,

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particularly because it has been typically underdiagnosed and underrepresented. She

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knows all about this topic. She's passionate about it, and

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she has her own lived experience as well as her

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experiences as a clinical psychologist and as an expert. Who

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is really really passionate and is a strong advocate in

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this space for autism and ADHD generally and particularly about

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how they affect women. She's absolutely fabulous. She's a wealth

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of information. If this is of interest to you, if

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you have a daughter, if you yourself, a friend, a sister,

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you want to have a better understanding of what this

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looks like and what the experience is like for people,

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and how you can be more aware and more supportive

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and affirming for people with neuro divergent brains. Stay tuned,

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you'll really enjoy this conversation.

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Here is Monique.

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Monique. Welcome to the Crappy to Happy Podcast.

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Thank you so much for having me on.

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Monique you are a clinical psychologist as I am, and

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you are also a podcast host. You are one half

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of the Neurodivergent Woman podcast, which I've heard great things

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about it, and I was so excited to get you

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onto my show because this is an area that is

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clearly not my area of expertise, and it is obviously

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something that you're really passionate about. And I was just

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saying to you, O fair Monique, that you know, even

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as a clinical psychologist, I feel like I don't know

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a lot about this topic, and you were saying, it's

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not something where we were really taught a lot in

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our psych degrees, was it.

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No, It's interesting, but it really wasn't, you know. I

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think we had a couple of lectures on it in

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undergraduate school and then in the masters, like a couple

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of mentions, but nothing comprehensive. I learned most of what

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I know about it actually afterwards working in a private

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practice that specialized in autism and ADHD.

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And like many things we learn, once we get out

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into the field and on the job, that's when we

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learn all this stuff, and that's when we realize how

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little we actually know. It's interesting that you say you

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worked in a practice. Let's start there specialized in autism

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and ADHD. So let's just start for listeners with the

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basic definition of what we mean when we say neurodivergent.

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And most of us do, I think, tend to automatically

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think of ADHD and autism. But it's broader than that,

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isn't it. So how would you define it?

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Yeah, great question, because I guess we're hearing the term

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neurodivergent neurodiverse a lot, particularly since COVID it's been in

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a lot of conversations and media, much more public awareness

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about it. But basically, the term neurodivergent means that you

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have a brain that is different to what we would

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call the neuromajority. So the term neurodivergent or neurodiversity comes

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from biodiversity. That an ecosystem has all different types of

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you know, plants, animals, fluorofauna, like everything in it that

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works together so that the system as a whole can

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flourish and thrive and for the preservation of you know,

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different species and like the ecosphere, and so the same

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applies to human neurology. You know, we have all different

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types of neurology. Yes, so we actually need neurological diversity

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as well. We need all types of brains, not just

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for survival of the human species, but to thrive. And

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the ideas that neurodivergent people often have a different perspective,

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a different view because our brains are different, and so

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the ideas In the two thousands, with the Internet era,

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a lot of autistic people were hopping online and they

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came up with this term of being neurologically divergent from

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the norm, or neurodivergent to kind of use too, I guess,

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refer to themselves. And then there came a term neurotypical,

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which just means neurologically typical. And if you're part of

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that majority, I suppose that have that more average brain

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type neuro neuronormal.

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Basically, Yeah, I love that definition. I love that parallel

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with biodiversity and how everything is necessary for the well

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being of the whole system. That's great. Do you know

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what the percentage is monique of neurotypical versus various types

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of neurodiversity or do we not know that because of

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we've been so underdiagnosed, which was we will get to

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in a minute. But do we have an idea.

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Yeah, it's really, I guess, a fascinating debate at the

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moment because some people are going, oh, my gosh, you know,

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why are the rates you know increasing? Are people being

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over diagnosed? And actually what's happening is because there's now

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better understanding, particularly in the past five to ten years,

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about what things like autism and ADHD in particular look

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like in people who were the adults and not children,

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and then particularly women. You know, a lot of the

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previous diagnostic criteria and research and where the ideas of

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autism and ADHD have come from have come from primarily

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studying white boys. So anyone who's not a white boy

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would struggle, you know, in the past. I guess if

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you weren't really diagnosed in the past five or ten years,

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you may not have been diagnosed or picked up, if

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that makes sense, because the facts of being on that

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particular population. So with more like people coming forward and

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talking about their experiences of being autistic and ADHD, you

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know what that looks like being an adult, being a woman,

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a lot more people recognizing those traits in themselves are going, oh,

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I didn't realize, you know, that's what being autistic was.

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I thought it was a five year old boy that

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is obsessed with trains, So that I think stereotyping is

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starting to get broken down, which.

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Is really good.

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And with neurodivergents that is broad, so anyone who's different

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also includes things like learning differences, you know, dyslexia, dyscalculia,

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movement differences like dyspraxia, things like that are genetically and

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neurologically based. Like even ticks and turettes and OCD are

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now you know, debated as coming under the neurodivergent umbrella.

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So when we're interesting, yeah, when we're.

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Looking at the percentage of people that are neurodivergent versus

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neurone typical. At the moment, the rates are increasing because

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people are more accurately getting diagnosed. So it particularly people

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from older generations in your forties, fifties, sixties, people are

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now getting diagnosed that would have been missed and so

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that's going to you know, nearly double I would say

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probably the prevalence rates. So the prevalence of autism used

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to be considered one to two percent. Now across Australia,

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the UK, and even countries like Japan, they're thinking it's

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more three to four percent, and that may still be

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an underestimation. When we're looking at ADHD. The worldwide prevalence

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is five to seven percent of people in people under eighteen,

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but it drops to around three four percent in adults,

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and that's probably incorrect because again, there was this idea

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that first ADHD was a behavioral disorder that if you

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just star charted people and gave them rewards, that the

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ADHD would be cured. Then there was an idea that

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it was a mental health disorder that could be cured

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and fixed. And in twenty thirteen, ADHD actually got moved

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into the neurodevelopmental category of our psychology Bible, which is

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the DSM five. And so we know that ADHD is

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a neurodevelopmental difference that you're born with. It is mostly genetic,

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like autism or just Z is mostly genetic, and it

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persists across the lifespan. So for the prevalence to be

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a lot hiring children but then lower in adults is incorrect.

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It's just showing that this idea that previously people thought

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you could grow out of ADHD. But what we're finding

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is people often do mey support across the lifespan because

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actually adult life is hard, and you know, particularly when

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you're getting to high school and post school, like trying

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to you know, study after school, go to UNI or

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vocational studies, trying to work, having children, juggling a family,

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getting promotions at work, stepping up into more responsibilities, opening

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your own business, and for women in particular, hitting peri,

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menopause and menopause, those are all areas where you know,

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often autistic and ADHD people will need ongoing support with

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and those are times when it can get unmasked in

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adults and in particular women because of the mental load

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and some of the gender norms and things like that.

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That's all so interesting. So I'm going to go back now.

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You said we looked at little white boys back when

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we studied psych. It was little boys being disruptive in

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the classroom. We all have that definition. So when you

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say it looks different in girls and it looks different

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in adults, I would love for listeners who are hearing

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a lot about this but not really sure what those

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distinctions are. How does it present differently in girls? And

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I know ADHD and autism are two different diagnoses, but

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how do they present differently in girls? And how do

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they present differently in adults.

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Yeah, that's really I think important to go through because

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there are so many new divergent adults and women in

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particular where they are actually living life on hard mode

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and they're finding things so difficult and draining and you know,

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having really a lot of difficulty coping being in burnout

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all the time, mental health issues, and so it's really

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important for neurodivergence to be identified so that you know

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what actually works for your brain and what doesn't work

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for your brain and why, because a lot of people

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actually start beating themselves up and feeling like they're failing

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at being neurotypical when actually they're not neurotypical. They're neurodivergent.

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And neurodivergent people we think differently. We often thrive in

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certain environments and when we're adapting things to our brains.

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So yeah, it's so important to know or not if

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you're wanting to go from crappy to happy, if you're

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neurodivergent or not. It's an important sort of role in

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well being in mental health.

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Yeah, one hundred percent. So for example, if you're a

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girl with ADHD, for example, how might that be different

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as a parent of a girl. How might that look

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compared to just a hyperactive little boy.

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Yeah, absolutely, So with girls, what we'll often see is

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in attention in terms of people will present with a

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more inattentive type. But even if they have a combined

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type of ADHD, so they are hyperactive impulsive as well,

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the hyperactivity and impulsivity will be missed because it may

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not look like what hyperactivity looks like in a young boy.

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So the hyperactivity or impulsivity that may present in girls

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with ADHD would be talkativeness, so really not being able

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to stop chit chatting. And often there'll be comments in

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school report cards around you know, disrupting the class, but

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it will be more around someone you know so and

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so as a chatterbox, or you know so and so

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is distracting the other students. There'll be also mental hyperactivity,

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so when you have ADHD, you might actually your normal

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will be having ten different streams of thoughts out once

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in your head all the time, and having difficulty sleeping

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because of having ten different streams of thoughts that never stop,

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and that's the normal. There'll be physical hyperactivity, so feeling

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like you really need to move and fidget to be

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able to learn and pay attention, but it may be

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more suppressed or masked. It may present in things like

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twirling your hair, chewing your clothes, fiddling with your jewelry,

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squeezing your toes inside your shoes because maybe you've been

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told off for making too much noise in terms of

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tapping your feet or tapping your fingers on the desk,

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or humming and whistling. You know, I definitely got told

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that in school that I was annoying to the other

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kids in the class because of some of those things.

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And they'll be also like an insatiable need for sometimes information,

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you know, and paying attention to the class material unless

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you're really interested in it will be really hard to do.

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So girls with ADHD will tend to do really well

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in the subjects that they're interested in, but find it

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very difficult to concentrate on anything that they don't have

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a passion for. And then what we see is girls

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as well will often compensate more for their ADHD, so

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they might start to use their diary and calendars and alarms,

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and so sometimes when it comes to high school or

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later on in life, when we're doing screen it's for

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ADHD in girls and women I'll have to kind of say, look,

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can you please fill out this screener as to what

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your baseline is without all the ten different compensatory strategies

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you use every day to try and get by and

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actually educating people. Well, actually, most neurotypical people don't need

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to set fifty alarms a day to remind themselves to do,

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you know, brush their teeth or take the medication or

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you know, things like that. So it'll be constantly losing

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track of things, having difficulty holding information, and you're working

294
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memory as well, so as soon as you try to

295
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remember something, something else will happen and will push it out,

296
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and being really easily distracted and blurting things out in conversations.

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Sometimes with girls, will often see with the hyperactivity is impulsivity.

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So what girls and women also report is finding that

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it's harder to regulate their emotions. You know, that's a

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really big struggle. And also with impulsivity in you know,

301
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adulthood and teenagehood, there'll be sometimes trying to chase jopamine

302
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through addictions, so spending addiction, sex addiction, alcohol, drug addictions

303
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sometimes and then often we'll see with girls talking in tangents,

304
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so people with ADHD move in a circular fashion through

305
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life that don't work in a linear way, So linear

306
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ways like A to B, B, two, C, C to

307
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D in your thoughts and in your actions. When you're

308
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an ADHD, you kind of in a circle. So you

309
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start doing something, then you get distracted and move to

310
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doing something else, and eventually you come round again to

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what you started and you might finish it, but it's

312
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kind of sometimes takes longer and has more branches of

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other things that you're going and doing, so sometimes it's

314
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harder to finish things. It's harder to start stuff and

315
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do stuff that's really boring, like your tax return or

316
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something like that. So, yeah, there's some of the features

317
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that we'll see with girls with ADHD and women as well.

318
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And what's your because you're in a neurodivergent woman, monique,

319
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what's your particular flavor of neurodiversity? What are you diagnosed with?

320
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Yeah, so I got late diagnosed in my thirties with

321
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both autism and ADHD, so I would be considered an

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AUDHDR autistic ADHDR, so I'm level one autistic and then

323
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ADHD combine type and myself getting diagnosed, I got diagnosed

324
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after my husband got diagnosed, so he also an autistic

325
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ADHD then might be other got diagnosed with ADHD, and

326
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my mom at sixty six then got diagnosed with ADHD.

327
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So it's genetic and it really runs in my whole

328
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extended family on both sides. Yeah, so I've got uncles

329
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that have dyslexia. My dad's also in eur diivergin. Yeah,

330
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so it's our normal, if that makes sense.

331
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Which would make it much harder to spot, right when

332
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all the people around you think and act and behaving

333
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particular ways, there is no sense that you were different.

334
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I guess in school and other environments like that, you

335
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might pick up on differences and things might feel hard,

336
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like you said, like I'm doing life on hard mode.

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But I'm guessing that it would be much harder to

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make that identification when everybody around you was sort of

339
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in the same boat.

340
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Yeah. Actually, my mom was really shocked when we went

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through my primary school and high school report cards for

342
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my kind of diagnostic assessment, and there was so many

343
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comments about my behavior that supported both an autistic and

344
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ADHD diagnosis, including one of my primary school teachers putting

345
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in monique is certainly unique and I was like, I'm

346
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quite sure what to make of that comment, and my

347
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mum was shocked because I got really good grades, but

348
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I struggled socially and struggled with some of the other

349
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things around, you know, classroom dynamics and teachers and stuff

350
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like that. But because my parents, for them, that was normal,

351
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Like they never picked up on it, if that makes sense,

352
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because they grew up in neurodivergent families too, with neurodivergent parents,

353
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so yeah, it's in the generation extents.

354
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M Yeah.

355
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Yeah.

356
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What was it like for you getting that diagnosis?

357
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What did it mean for you?

358
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It was really helpful because I think, you know, and

359
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the research actually backs this up.

360
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You know, there's been a.

361
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Study like in the past year or so where they

362
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looked at adult women getting an autism diagnosis. In particular,

363
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for myself, I found it helped me to be more

364
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accepting and self compassionate and let go of I guess

365
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some of the expectations to try and fix myself, if

366
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that makes sense, and perfectionism and things like that, and

367
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that's mirrored in this study. You know, the studies showed

368
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that for adult autistic women, they found it helped them

369
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be more assertive about what their needs were and actually

370
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be more active and taking care of themselves and doing

371
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self care activities. They felt like there was a bit

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of a grieving process for you know, not getting support

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earlier on and having to put effort into masking and

374
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things like that, which impacted their mental health. But overall

375
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they found that actually getting a diagnosis helped them accept

376
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themselves and be more compassionate towards themselves, which I think

377
00:22:58.799 --> 00:22:59.559
is really lovely.

378
00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:04.559
Yeah, very very much. You talked before about the masking

379
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and masking and camouflaging, and you mentioned all of the

380
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alarms and all of these compensatory strategies, which I'm sure

381
00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:16.119
many women do and equally have not necessarily made that

382
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connection that, oh, actually most people don't need to do this,

383
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or they use it as evidence that there's actually just

384
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something wrong with me. I'm just such a scatter brand

385
00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:28.000
and disorganized and why can't I just be better and

386
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different and more organized, et cetera. But what are some

387
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of the other kind of masking things that women particularly

388
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might do if they're not aware that they have a

389
00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:41.680
neurodivergent brain.

390
00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:46.640
Yeah, so with ADHD, the masking is usually more around

391
00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:51.720
you know, trying to appear that you can pay attention

392
00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:55.559
to conversations or information and that your mind hasn't gone

393
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off and gotten distracted or on another track. Sometimes as well,

394
00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:03.319
can be trying to suppress wanting to interrupt and blurt

395
00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:05.440
something out because you know you'll forget it if you

396
00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:08.720
don't say it right that second, because it's hard to

397
00:24:08.759 --> 00:24:13.359
hold in your working memory. With autism, what we see

398
00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:18.400
in autistic girls and women is often differences in social approach.

399
00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:23.319
So for example, autistic people tend to really socialize and

400
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:27.279
their whole world, your whole brain is orientated around your

401
00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:30.640
intense interests, and sometimes those have been referred to as

402
00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:34.839
special interests. So for example, when you're autistic, the main

403
00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:38.359
thing that you think about, want to talk about, share

404
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:42.799
information about, or do will usually relate back to an

405
00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:46.519
intense interest that you've had and it usually lasts for years.

406
00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:50.160
So one of my interests is psychology, and that's been

407
00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:55.480
very helpful in terms of very helpful assistance in getting

408
00:24:55.480 --> 00:24:58.000
through the training program because it's quite a long and

409
00:24:58.119 --> 00:25:02.319
rigorous pathway. And yeah, like having an interest in people

410
00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:06.519
and how they work and figuring them out, probably partially

411
00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:10.519
due to being autistic. And not having that inbuilt neurotypical

412
00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:13.240
manual if that makes sense of why do people say

413
00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:15.279
the things that they say or why do they act

414
00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:17.759
the way that they act, and actually having to figure

415
00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:21.319
that out manually usually takes a lot of time and

416
00:25:21.400 --> 00:25:24.400
a lot of effort to do. And that's where the

417
00:25:24.440 --> 00:25:27.759
masking comes in, because sometimes when you're yourself and you

418
00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:31.319
want to talk about your interests, you know, like a

419
00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:36.480
certain species of lizard or your rock collection or whatever

420
00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:40.640
it is, you know, not everyone wants to kind of

421
00:25:40.839 --> 00:25:44.920
listen to that extensive, you know, infodump about that. Or

422
00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:50.160
sometimes being autistic as well, you might stim you might

423
00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:55.720
have sensory differences and find sensory information you need more

424
00:25:55.759 --> 00:25:58.079
of it or you need much less of it. So

425
00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:04.519
sometimes it's masking discs comfort and distress at what would

426
00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:07.720
be an easy situation if you did have a neuro

427
00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:13.519
typical brain. Sometimes it's masking is really trying to socialize

428
00:26:13.559 --> 00:26:17.200
in a more neurotypical way, which is sometimes more around

429
00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:23.519
recognizing a social hierarchy and socializing around keeping and maintaining

430
00:26:23.559 --> 00:26:29.640
relationships in that more neurotypical way, whereas for autistic people

431
00:26:29.640 --> 00:26:33.200
it's really more just interrupting each other and going on

432
00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:35.559
about your interest and if you find someone else with

433
00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:38.920
the same interest, it's amazing. So with the masking, it's

434
00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:42.079
often like forcing yourself to make eye contact because eye

435
00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:46.559
contact can be very uncomfortable for autistic people, or sometimes

436
00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:49.000
you don't know how long to hold it for or

437
00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:51.799
how to time it correctly. It can be making sure

438
00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:56.039
you have the right expression on your face, otherwise sometimes

439
00:26:56.079 --> 00:26:58.119
you'll get told that you have a resting bitch face.

440
00:26:59.079 --> 00:27:02.279
So autistic people will sometimes tend to have a bit

441
00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:06.079
more of a monotone voice or what we could call

442
00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:10.920
flat affects, so not having the same micro expressions as

443
00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:15.759
a neurotypical person timed the same way as well, so

444
00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:20.200
animating your face, using the right gestures, making eye contact,

445
00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:24.480
modulating your voice tone, and knowing exactly the right thing

446
00:27:24.599 --> 00:27:26.640
to say at the right time.

447
00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:29.359
So it's a lot of work.

448
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:33.960
It's something that usually neurotypical people and ADHD only people

449
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:37.279
will be able to coordinate pretty effortlessly, like it won't

450
00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:40.720
drain them, But for an autistic person coordinating all those

451
00:27:40.759 --> 00:27:45.200
things at once, it usually overwhelms the brain and that's

452
00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:48.759
where people then struggle to keep up or it's taking

453
00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:53.039
so much energy that they're extremely drained by social situations. Yeah.

454
00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:59.640
Interesting, Minik. You mentioned before the Bible, the psychologist bubble,

455
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:06.079
the dear autism, and ADHD in the manual are called autism,

456
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:11.880
spectrum disorder, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. What do you

457
00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:15.240
think about the term disorder these days as a descriptor.

458
00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:19.039
I think that's a great question, because you know, I

459
00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:22.799
tend to work through what we would call the neurodiversity

460
00:28:22.839 --> 00:28:27.799
affirming lens, So that's kind of affirming the person's neurodivergent

461
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:31.240
identity and coming at it from the point of view

462
00:28:31.240 --> 00:28:34.599
that neurodivergent people not only have a different neurology, but

463
00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:38.759
we actually have our own cultural and social norms, you know,

464
00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:43.119
rather than a deficit, if that makes sense, there's actually

465
00:28:43.240 --> 00:28:48.119
cultural differences. And there's this theory called the double empathy

466
00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:51.240
theory that's come out in the past, you know, ten

467
00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:55.480
twelve years, that speaks to that, and it kind of

468
00:28:55.640 --> 00:28:59.319
theorizes that, you know, before when we had the theory

469
00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:02.519
of mind with autistic people, which was a theory that

470
00:29:02.599 --> 00:29:05.279
came out and what you know we would have got

471
00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:09.119
taught at UNI, which is that autistic people lack empathy

472
00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:12.799
because they don't I guess they're not able to read

473
00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:17.079
other people's you know, facial expressions, or read their emotions

474
00:29:17.319 --> 00:29:20.680
or understand their thoughts and things like that. And this

475
00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:24.279
other theory, the double empathy theory, challenges that and goes well. Actually,

476
00:29:24.920 --> 00:29:29.519
autistic people, when they're interacting with other neurodivergent people, tend

477
00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:34.519
to be able to communicate overall, you know, okay, but

478
00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:39.720
when there's a cross communication from autistic to neurotypical, then

479
00:29:39.720 --> 00:29:42.720
there's a bit of a breakdown, and this double empathy

480
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:45.880
theory also goes well, Actually there's a communication breakdown on

481
00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:49.519
the other side too, that often neurotypical people find it

482
00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:53.359
hard to read autistic people and understand their intentions and

483
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:57.440
their thoughts and their emotions just as much. But unfortunately,

484
00:29:57.480 --> 00:29:59.440
when you're in a minority, you're the one that tends

485
00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:03.400
to get blank if communication goes wrong. And so this

486
00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:05.839
is more putting the emphasis on, well, actually it's just

487
00:30:05.880 --> 00:30:09.400
a cross cultural barrier than the fault of autistic people

488
00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:12.200
all the time, and that both parties should make an

489
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:15.680
effort to actually understand each other's not just the emphasis

490
00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:22.240
being all on autistic people to learn neurotypical speak basically. So, yeah,

491
00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:23.759
it's a bit of a different perspective.

492
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:27.440
Yeah, it is. The interesting thing is, so you talked

493
00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:30.319
about being late diagnosed. If we think about people who

494
00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:34.839
were early diagnosed but who had this label put on

495
00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:36.880
them that they've got something wrong with them, that's been

496
00:30:36.920 --> 00:30:40.839
the message, hasn't it like it's a disorder, it's a deficit,

497
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:45.799
and how that impacts people's sense of themselves and their

498
00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:49.759
self worth and what they're capable of. For you, working

499
00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:52.079
in this field, what do you see as being the

500
00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:56.240
downstream consequences of that when people get to later in life.

501
00:30:56.359 --> 00:30:59.279
Yeah, it's really hard because sometimes when you don't get

502
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:03.079
a diagnose, you then don't receive supports, and often people

503
00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:07.519
burn out in adulthood and have quite poor consequences for

504
00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:11.000
their mental and physical health due to stress. But then

505
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:14.319
if you do receive an early diagnosis and you're not

506
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:20.839
receiving neurodiversity affirming supports or an explanation of the diagnosis,

507
00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:25.279
that's neurodiversity affirming, but instead is based in the I

508
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:29.640
guess medical model, which really pathologizes difference. It's based more

509
00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:33.119
on trying to cure physical stuff if that makes sense,

510
00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:36.880
whereas you can't actually cure autism basically you can't really

511
00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:40.799
turn an autistic person into a neurotypical person. And so

512
00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:43.920
of course looking at it through that framework, you know,

513
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:46.680
of trying to cure and fix someone and saying that

514
00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:49.599
it's a deficit and a disorder is going to make

515
00:31:49.640 --> 00:31:53.000
them feel bad about themselves and alarm their parents and

516
00:31:53.079 --> 00:31:57.119
cares as well. And often the narrative around autism has

517
00:31:57.160 --> 00:32:00.880
been extremely negative. So when we're looking at the nineties

518
00:32:00.920 --> 00:32:04.680
and the two thousands, there would be ads, particularly in America,

519
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:08.640
speaking about autism in the same vein as it being

520
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:14.359
akin to cancer or AIDS actually, and when we look

521
00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:17.319
at yeah, seriously, like the Grim Reaper ad that was

522
00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:22.000
out in Australia, remember that, Like there's ads in America

523
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:26.079
where this is scary voice going autism is like coming

524
00:32:26.119 --> 00:32:28.920
for your child and taking your child away from you,

525
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:35.559
Like it's a monster to defeat. Like yeah, And unfortunately

526
00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:39.880
some of those organizations still exist today. And I focused

527
00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:44.200
on eradicating autism and doing yeah, a lot of genetic

528
00:32:44.279 --> 00:32:49.200
research and things like that, and so I work more

529
00:32:49.240 --> 00:32:53.079
from the social model of disability, which is what then

530
00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:56.240
your diversity affirming model is based on and it's actually

531
00:32:56.240 --> 00:33:00.519
going disabled people have always existed, you know, it's far

532
00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:04.440
back in society, as you know, we go and we

533
00:33:04.519 --> 00:33:08.519
have a place in society, and that the word disability

534
00:33:08.599 --> 00:33:13.000
is different to disorder, okay, And the word disability is

535
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:17.039
also framed quite negatively, Whereas I do identify as a

536
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:20.640
disabled person, but I see it as a neutral term.

537
00:33:20.839 --> 00:33:21.039
Right.

538
00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:24.319
I've never been able to work full time, and there's

539
00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:27.640
lots of things that I can't do, but I save

540
00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:29.920
my energy for the things that bring me joy and

541
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:33.599
that I can do. And so when we're looking at

542
00:33:33.640 --> 00:33:37.960
the term disability through the social model of disability, it's

543
00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:42.279
basically saying that you may have a difference or a

544
00:33:42.319 --> 00:33:47.240
condition that creates difficulty or impairment with doing something. So

545
00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:51.039
say maybe you're a wheelchair user and your legs don't

546
00:33:51.079 --> 00:33:54.799
work like a person who you know doesn't need to

547
00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:58.720
use a wheelchair, right, and so your legs do work differently.

548
00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:02.839
There is a disability present. But what also contributes to

549
00:34:02.920 --> 00:34:07.359
that experience of disability is the fact that society doesn't

550
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:11.760
really account for disabled people and it's not accessible for

551
00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:15.480
disabled people. So is it the wheelchair and like your

552
00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:18.280
physical disability that disables you, or is it the fact

553
00:34:18.280 --> 00:34:20.920
that the building you're trying to enter doesn't have a

554
00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:23.880
wheelchair ramp? You know that you don't have access to

555
00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:29.159
transport to get to that building, right, So its just bringing,

556
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:32.920
I guess, a real reflection on some of our views

557
00:34:32.920 --> 00:34:38.440
and attitudes towards disability. And one of the isms that

558
00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:40.760
I think often isn't talked about, Like, you know, we

559
00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:45.559
talk about racism and sexism, but something called ableism often

560
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:48.000
isn't talked about, and it certainly wasn't talked about when

561
00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:52.440
I went to university to do my psychology degrees. Right, No,

562
00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:55.760
not at all, and not at all. I don't think

563
00:34:55.840 --> 00:34:59.039
probably sexism was talked about much either, to be honest.

564
00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:01.440
Unfortunately all racism, but.

565
00:35:03.079 --> 00:35:03.960
None of them really.

566
00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:07.199
No, it's a bit of individualized psychology.

567
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:09.840
Yeah, but that's a great point. And also even now

568
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:12.559
that we are talking about ableism, I think most of

569
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:16.840
us probably think about the wheelchair example, and we don't

570
00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:19.800
necessarily think about the term ableism in terms of these

571
00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:24.800
other forms of disability and the neurological kinds that we're

572
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:25.519
talking about here.

573
00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:26.079
Yeah.

574
00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:30.280
Absolutely, And you know, sometimes disability can be visible, and

575
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:34.760
sometimes it's actually invisible, and sometimes it fluctuates as well,

576
00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:37.320
you know, like people can have what we call dynamic

577
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:41.039
disability where at some times in their life they can

578
00:35:41.079 --> 00:35:44.039
do more. At other times in their life they can't

579
00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:46.440
do as much or they can't do things in the

580
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:50.239
same way, and so sometimes the narrative around autism and

581
00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:55.199
ADHD doesn't take that into account. And as well, like

582
00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:58.199
a lot of the systemic things aren't really accessible for

583
00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:02.880
autistic and ADHD people, like school isn't designed for learning

584
00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:06.039
unless you fit in a very narrow box. A lot

585
00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:11.599
of you know, university and employment isn't designed to be inclusive,

586
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:15.480
and there are a lot of barriers to things being accessible.

587
00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:20.199
So I'm currently consulting on the National Autism Strategy in

588
00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:24.920
Australia as a lived experience and a clinical member of

589
00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:29.039
the Diagnosis, Services and Supports working Group. And the National

590
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:31.280
Autism Strategy that's going to be released at the end

591
00:36:31.320 --> 00:36:34.400
of the year in Australia is all about trying to

592
00:36:34.519 --> 00:36:38.679
make society in Australia more inclusive and safe for autistic

593
00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:42.519
people on all levels of society and educate the public

594
00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:47.559
more about autism. Because of the amazing mis conceptions.

595
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:49.119
Yeah, yeah, good for you.

596
00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:54.320
Many women particularly, we're talking about neurodivergent women predominantly here.

597
00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:57.639
Well we're not, that's what your specialty is. But for

598
00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:03.400
neurodivergent women there are often cocurring mental health issues, anxiety, depression,

599
00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:06.079
things like that. What's the rate of that and what's

600
00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:06.840
the reason for that.

601
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:11.480
Yeah, So for autism in general, regardless of gender, seventy

602
00:37:11.519 --> 00:37:14.199
to eighty percent of autistic people have a co occurring

603
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:17.519
mental health condition, and the more common of those are

604
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:26.880
anxiety depression OCD, eating disorders, and trauma. Unfortunately, So I

605
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:30.320
guess the thing is with autism and ADHD as well. Like,

606
00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:33.079
we're not trying to cure or fix autism when we're

607
00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:36.679
working in psychologists. It's more about looking at the cold,

608
00:37:36.760 --> 00:37:41.079
curring mental health conditions that can come along with being autistic.

609
00:37:41.199 --> 00:37:46.559
So having maybe an unrecognized or undiagnosed disability, getting a

610
00:37:46.599 --> 00:37:50.760
lot of negative feedback, you know, or bullying. So people

611
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:54.920
often experience that from school age or earlier, and then

612
00:37:55.039 --> 00:37:58.119
finding life more difficult but not knowing why, and so

613
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:02.559
of course people then blame themselves, you know, and go, well,

614
00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:05.880
maybe it's because I'm a failure or I'm not good

615
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:10.199
enough or I'm lazy, if that makes sense. So, unfortunately,

616
00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:14.119
some of the things like trauma, anxiety, and depression come

617
00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:18.800
from more societal factors. And then sometimes as well, you know,

618
00:38:18.840 --> 00:38:24.599
when you're autistic, your brain is more detail focused. Autistic

619
00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:28.320
brains process information differently, you know, and so it can

620
00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:32.960
lead to becoming overwhelmed more easily as well. So sometimes

621
00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:35.760
there's those things. But if you're in the right environment

622
00:38:36.519 --> 00:38:41.679
and you have good supports, that really helps with mental health.

623
00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:47.840
And unfortunately, physical health conditions are really prevalent in autistic

624
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:52.800
and ADHD people. So, yeah, there's research showing that autistic

625
00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:56.440
kids are twice as likely as neurotypical kids.

626
00:38:57.039 --> 00:38:59.519
To experience chronic pain. Is that right.

627
00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:04.400
Yeah, Autistic people are also more likely to experience neurological

628
00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:10.320
conditions like seizures and epilepsy other things, and the research

629
00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:14.840
shows that if you're autistic, your chance of having any

630
00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:17.559
physical health condition is much higher.

631
00:39:18.199 --> 00:39:18.480
Yeah.

632
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:21.880
So many of the people that I specialize in working with,

633
00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:27.480
like my area of expertise is working with neurodivergence in women,

634
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:31.400
but also trauma, chronic pain, and chronic illness. So most

635
00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:35.400
of my clients and myself have you know, experience of

636
00:39:35.480 --> 00:39:36.199
chronic illness.

637
00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:40.719
Unfortunately, wow, and do we know what the reason for

638
00:39:40.760 --> 00:39:41.840
that correlation is.

639
00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:47.960
Well, some of it is potentially genetic. Some of it

640
00:39:48.039 --> 00:39:52.000
is linked to the higher likelihood of having conditions like

641
00:39:52.039 --> 00:39:55.679
Ella's dan loss, which is a connective tissue disorder that

642
00:39:55.920 --> 00:39:59.079
leads to you know, having a lot of other things.

643
00:39:59.559 --> 00:40:03.360
Some of it it could be ongoing stress and burnout

644
00:40:03.400 --> 00:40:08.159
as well, unfortunately, And yeah, some of the research shows

645
00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:13.519
that autistic women in particular are more vulnerable to experiencing

646
00:40:13.559 --> 00:40:18.039
what we call central nervous systems sensitivity disorders, so those

647
00:40:18.039 --> 00:40:25.039
are things like chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, so potentially having perhaps

648
00:40:25.039 --> 00:40:28.800
a more sensitive system and being more overwhelmed by sensory

649
00:40:29.079 --> 00:40:33.679
information as well. And unfortunately, many of the statistics about

650
00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:38.800
autism or you know, are quite similar with ADHD people too,

651
00:40:39.079 --> 00:40:42.880
So ADHD people also have very elevated levels of mental

652
00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:47.480
health issues and physical health issues. And not to get

653
00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:50.039
into anything too depressing, so it's a bit of a

654
00:40:50.079 --> 00:40:55.760
trigger warning here, but unfortunately, your life expectancy is a

655
00:40:55.800 --> 00:40:59.519
lot lower due to different factors if you are autistic

656
00:40:59.559 --> 00:41:02.880
and ADA, and the research is showing it's usually for

657
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:06.440
autistic people your mental health care and your physical health

658
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:10.880
care needs not being met versus factors for neurotypical people

659
00:41:10.920 --> 00:41:14.320
that would influence that. Then for ADHD people, it's when

660
00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:18.079
the ADHD is not actually treated and it's more things

661
00:41:18.119 --> 00:41:23.559
around like accidents, car accidents and again trigger wanting suicides,

662
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:24.480
things like that.

663
00:41:24.920 --> 00:41:28.000
Yeah, well it's really serious, isn't it.

664
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:30.440
Yeah, that's why this is so important to talk about.

665
00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:34.679
Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. So what I want to ask

666
00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:38.719
you is there will be women out there who are thinking, oh,

667
00:41:38.719 --> 00:41:41.440
they've heard all of the talk, they've seen all of

668
00:41:42.039 --> 00:41:45.159
several public figures coming out and talking about their diagnosis.

669
00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:49.559
There's this increased level of awareness just generally in society

670
00:41:49.559 --> 00:41:53.920
about the rate of underdiagnosis in women, and there will

671
00:41:53.960 --> 00:41:57.360
be many women who are thinking, oh, actually, I'm pretty

672
00:41:57.360 --> 00:41:59.960
sure I've lady got ADHD. I reckon, I've got autism.

673
00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:03.960
And they'll be thinking, oh, well, is it worth going

674
00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:07.239
and seeing somebody? Is it worth getting a diagnosis? I've

675
00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:09.400
been I've survived up until now, I've got on with

676
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:11.800
it up until now, Like, what would be the point.

677
00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:15.000
So what's your answer to that? Monique is it worth

678
00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:17.199
while getting a diagnosis, and what are some of the

679
00:42:17.239 --> 00:42:20.320
things that might be available to those women if they

680
00:42:20.360 --> 00:42:23.800
do get a diagnosis that could actually really be helpful

681
00:42:23.800 --> 00:42:24.159
to them.

682
00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:28.840
Yeah, so I think with that question, a lot of

683
00:42:28.840 --> 00:42:34.079
the times diagnosis is actually inaccessible for people because you know,

684
00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:38.760
currently the public system in Australia, it's very difficult to

685
00:42:39.320 --> 00:42:43.519
get any access to professionals that would be able to

686
00:42:43.599 --> 00:42:50.199
diagnose autism or ADHD, particularly in adulthood. And then when

687
00:42:50.199 --> 00:42:53.280
we're looking at going privately for a diagnosis, you know,

688
00:42:53.480 --> 00:42:55.800
often it takes a lot of time for the clinician

689
00:42:56.559 --> 00:42:59.880
and also the tools that we use are quite expensive,

690
00:43:00.920 --> 00:43:03.960
like the testing materials that we pay for as clinicians,

691
00:43:04.079 --> 00:43:06.159
and the time it takes to write up a report

692
00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:10.039
and be thorough. So often getting a diagnosis can cost

693
00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:14.599
around two thousand dollars, so that can be really hard

694
00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:17.800
for a lot of families. And so this is where

695
00:43:17.960 --> 00:43:21.719
there's a bit of a debate around self diagnosis. And

696
00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:25.480
I guess with that it's hard because there'll be certain

697
00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:29.440
cases where there might be a lot of complexity going

698
00:43:29.480 --> 00:43:32.719
on and it could be really helpful to get what

699
00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:36.199
we call a differential diagnosis process. So making sure that

700
00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:40.480
you know everything has been looked at really thoroughly, because

701
00:43:40.519 --> 00:43:43.760
there might be more than autism and ADHD going on

702
00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:48.079
as well for the person. But I think things are

703
00:43:48.119 --> 00:43:50.519
hopefully going to change for the better with the National

704
00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:53.280
Autism Strategy coming out, There'll be hopefully a lot more

705
00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:57.719
supports for people because currently, particularly if you get diagnosis

706
00:43:57.840 --> 00:44:01.199
level one autism, there's not much support out there for people,

707
00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:04.440
and it's really more often people getting a diagnosis, like

708
00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:09.599
an official diagnosis for validation to know and to then

709
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:13.480
be able to figure out, okay, well, what strategies are

710
00:44:13.480 --> 00:44:17.280
going to work for an autistic brain versus a neurotypical

711
00:44:17.320 --> 00:44:20.840
brain with anxiety and depression, and you know that is

712
00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:25.119
really helpful information to know there is more support available.

713
00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:27.719
How your support needs are, So if you're more level

714
00:44:27.760 --> 00:44:32.039
two or three in terms of you know, needing significant support,

715
00:44:32.559 --> 00:44:35.719
but even accessing things like the NDIS is quite hard

716
00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:40.159
at the moment, whereas with ADHD, getting an official diagnosis,

717
00:44:40.559 --> 00:44:43.360
a lot of people will seek that because you know,

718
00:44:43.400 --> 00:44:48.159
they want to trial ADHD medication, which ADHD medication is

719
00:44:48.199 --> 00:44:51.320
one of the oldest psychiatric medications. It's been around since

720
00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:56.000
the fifties. It's being quite well tested, and it does

721
00:44:56.079 --> 00:44:58.800
tend to work for the majority of people who are

722
00:44:58.840 --> 00:45:02.920
adhds and be very helpful in terms of reducing some

723
00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:06.639
of those negative like life and risk factors that I

724
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:12.599
talked about previously. So yeah, like, sometimes there's more tangible

725
00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:17.159
stuff that can be offered for helping support ADHD than autism.

726
00:45:17.239 --> 00:45:21.159
But that doesn't mean that autistic people who have lower

727
00:45:21.199 --> 00:45:24.679
support needs don't deserve support, you know, particularly if you're

728
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:28.920
level one autistic doesn't mean no support needs. It just

729
00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:32.119
means you know, you do still need some support, not

730
00:45:32.199 --> 00:45:33.079
no support.

731
00:45:33.400 --> 00:45:35.159
So two things I want to ask you about that.

732
00:45:35.320 --> 00:45:37.599
Number One, you totally get it can be very cost

733
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:40.639
prohibitive to get a diagnosis, and that's frustrating for many

734
00:45:40.639 --> 00:45:44.400
many people. Do you know if somebody has private health insurance,

735
00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:46.239
can they Well, I guess it's going to depend on

736
00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:48.280
the fund. I'm just thinking of people whether there's any

737
00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:51.559
rebate available for the diagnosis if they want to go private.

738
00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:55.719
Yet there is an amount that you can sometimes get

739
00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:58.719
back on private health, but it is small. And then

740
00:45:58.760 --> 00:46:02.440
something I guess you know has been raised with the

741
00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:06.480
creation of the National Autism Strategy is that there was

742
00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:11.760
some funding through Medicare that could go towards an autism assessment,

743
00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:14.079
but it's for people under the age of twenty five,

744
00:46:14.599 --> 00:46:19.400
and that's not really fair. So no, it's very frustrating

745
00:46:19.480 --> 00:46:23.360
because as I've had to explain unfortunately to you know,

746
00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:27.760
clients and things like that, they like in disbelief. They're like, well,

747
00:46:27.800 --> 00:46:31.079
does the government think that autism doesn't exist in people

748
00:46:31.159 --> 00:46:32.079
over twenty five?

749
00:46:32.519 --> 00:46:34.639
It stops it twenty Yeah, So it's.

750
00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:37.599
Like, well no, But again, like a lot of the

751
00:46:37.719 --> 00:46:41.320
current supports and funding really is more focused on children,

752
00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:45.719
and when we're I guess looking at that critically, it's

753
00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:50.599
really is that about like potentially early intervention, where we're

754
00:46:50.599 --> 00:46:53.880
trying to intervene early to help children have better quality

755
00:46:53.880 --> 00:46:56.280
of life and you know all of that, or is

756
00:46:56.280 --> 00:46:59.400
it that we're trying to have a lot of funding

757
00:46:59.559 --> 00:47:02.119
thrown kids under the age of eighteen so that by

758
00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:06.119
the time they turn eighteen they're no longer appearing autistic.

759
00:47:06.519 --> 00:47:09.400
If I'm going to be cynical about that, If that

760
00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:12.840
makes sense, they no longer need support and you know,

761
00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:16.679
other government funding and stuff like that. And that's again

762
00:47:17.119 --> 00:47:21.760
from that more medical model around trying to cure or

763
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:25.679
fix or reduce an impairment and return a person from

764
00:47:25.719 --> 00:47:28.920
being disabled to what we would call a quote, you know,

765
00:47:29.280 --> 00:47:33.960
normal level of productivity of being a member of society.

766
00:47:34.679 --> 00:47:38.000
And that's not really valuing people with disabilities who may

767
00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:39.880
not be able to work full time or you know,

768
00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:42.159
quote unquote contribute to society.

769
00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:43.679
Very capitalist, isn't it.

770
00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:46.760
It is very capitalist, you know. And it's not recognizing

771
00:47:46.840 --> 00:47:50.320
too that. Yeah, a lot of autistic people want to

772
00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:54.960
work and study, but doing so full time may not

773
00:47:55.119 --> 00:47:58.840
be actually great for their health and mental health. And

774
00:47:58.960 --> 00:48:01.760
often yeah, like a lot of the support stops at

775
00:48:01.800 --> 00:48:06.800
high school, stops after eighteen when people do need ongoing support,

776
00:48:07.119 --> 00:48:10.679
you know. So it's quite shortsighted.

777
00:48:10.239 --> 00:48:12.519
Yeah, for sure. And the other thing I wanted to

778
00:48:12.559 --> 00:48:15.800
ask you super quick is for people who are not familiar,

779
00:48:15.960 --> 00:48:20.119
is it possible to explain really briefly, like the what

780
00:48:20.199 --> 00:48:22.920
is the difference between for example, a level one, level two,

781
00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:25.119
level three? Like we used to have these terms aspergers

782
00:48:25.159 --> 00:48:28.159
and autistic and et cetera, but now we don't. So

783
00:48:28.639 --> 00:48:31.199
can you give an indication of what some of those

784
00:48:31.199 --> 00:48:34.199
distinctions are to as we get go through the levels? Yeah?

785
00:48:34.239 --> 00:48:38.280
Absolutely so, how I would look at it. You know,

786
00:48:38.440 --> 00:48:42.679
is when we're talking about level one autism, it's basically

787
00:48:42.760 --> 00:48:46.440
saying that the person meets a diagnostic criteria. To meet

788
00:48:46.440 --> 00:48:51.760
the diagnostic criteria, showing that you know you're socializing differently,

789
00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:56.679
you're not socializing in a neurotypical way, you have a

790
00:48:56.719 --> 00:49:01.239
special interest, you have sensory differences, you know you really

791
00:49:01.320 --> 00:49:08.199
need routine rituals you may have always forget them before. Basically,

792
00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:11.639
it's showing that you meet the diagnostic criteria and that

793
00:49:11.920 --> 00:49:16.199
you know there's distress or there's difficulty with functioning to

794
00:49:16.760 --> 00:49:19.719
I guess a neurotypical level, which is working full time,

795
00:49:20.360 --> 00:49:24.039
being able to maintain full time study, maintaining lots of

796
00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:29.480
different relationships in a neurotypical way. Right, So when you

797
00:49:29.639 --> 00:49:33.559
be considered level one, basically you will have differences with

798
00:49:33.880 --> 00:49:42.000
socializing and communication, some challenges, and you need support. That's

799
00:49:42.119 --> 00:49:45.079
basically what level one means. So often I'll see that

800
00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:48.239
people who are level one, they may be able to

801
00:49:48.280 --> 00:49:51.000
work full time and like finish school and stuff like that,

802
00:49:51.559 --> 00:49:53.840
but it's taking a toll. So you may be able

803
00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:55.880
to work full time, but then when you come home

804
00:49:55.920 --> 00:50:00.159
from work, you're collapsing and you're not actually able to

805
00:50:00.199 --> 00:50:02.599
interact with anyone. You're not able to go out for

806
00:50:02.679 --> 00:50:06.559
those after work drinks, go to the gym, do the

807
00:50:06.599 --> 00:50:10.920
grocery shopping in that sensory environment, interact with your partner

808
00:50:11.239 --> 00:50:14.360
or your friends or you know, your children, even because

809
00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:17.000
you're so drained from masking the whole day and you

810
00:50:17.039 --> 00:50:20.119
actually need all your week nights to recover and you're

811
00:50:20.119 --> 00:50:23.559
spending most of your weekends barely doing your chores and

812
00:50:23.599 --> 00:50:27.119
recovering from working full time. So often level one people

813
00:50:27.159 --> 00:50:31.880
do better long term from what I've observed, clinically working

814
00:50:31.880 --> 00:50:34.159
four days a week and having that one day off

815
00:50:34.199 --> 00:50:37.519
to recover, and then they're able to kind of have

816
00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:40.360
a better quality of life and do more. And then

817
00:50:40.400 --> 00:50:44.159
when we're looking at level two people, it's basically, you know,

818
00:50:44.239 --> 00:50:48.360
you need substantial support. So it's often people that you know,

819
00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:50.559
if they would have worked more than two maybe three

820
00:50:50.679 --> 00:50:53.800
days a week or attend school more than two or

821
00:50:53.800 --> 00:50:57.320
three days a week, they're really struggling. And that may

822
00:50:57.320 --> 00:51:01.000
be due to having a much more sensitive nervous system

823
00:51:01.360 --> 00:51:05.639
or processing all of the sensory information, the social information,

824
00:51:06.360 --> 00:51:10.480
the cognitive information completely overloads their system, and then they're

825
00:51:10.480 --> 00:51:14.639
spending a lot of their time unfortunately in meltdowns, shutdowns,

826
00:51:15.320 --> 00:51:20.400
self harming, feeling suicidal, using addictions to get through and cope.

827
00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:23.840
Whereas when we see people working that more two to

828
00:51:23.920 --> 00:51:26.320
three days a week and having the rest of the

829
00:51:26.320 --> 00:51:30.360
week off to recover from that rest, then people are

830
00:51:30.440 --> 00:51:33.280
usually more able to take care of themselves, like do

831
00:51:33.400 --> 00:51:38.079
their hygiene tasks, prepare food for themselves, be able to

832
00:51:38.679 --> 00:51:41.800
you know, be with friends and socialize and stuff like that.

833
00:51:42.039 --> 00:51:44.280
And often level two people might need a lot more

834
00:51:44.320 --> 00:51:47.360
one on one support and prompting to kind of do

835
00:51:47.480 --> 00:51:51.519
those tasks. Then we have level three people, and again

836
00:51:51.639 --> 00:51:56.119
it's needing very significant, substantial support. So these would be

837
00:51:56.199 --> 00:51:59.360
autistic people where they may or may not have a

838
00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:03.760
color current intellectual disability, and that is usually around thirty

839
00:52:04.039 --> 00:52:08.320
forty percent of autistic people not just autistic, but they

840
00:52:08.440 --> 00:52:12.960
also have a cold current intellectual disability. And so they

841
00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:16.440
also may be non speaking, so they may communicate through

842
00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:21.920
noise or echolalia, but they may not communicate through babel

843
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:25.440
language the way that a neurotypical person would. And so

844
00:52:25.719 --> 00:52:28.920
level three people often require yeah, like round the clock

845
00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:32.440
twenty four to seven you know, support to do what

846
00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:35.800
they want to do, what they need to do. So, yeah,

847
00:52:35.960 --> 00:52:38.519
I hope that helps, just describe the different levels, because

848
00:52:38.559 --> 00:52:42.360
often I find that no one's really explain the different

849
00:52:42.400 --> 00:52:44.920
levels for people, even when they've received a diagnosis. They

850
00:52:44.920 --> 00:52:47.679
don't actually know what that means for them and also

851
00:52:48.039 --> 00:52:52.679
exactly their functional capacity in terms of pacing themselves so

852
00:52:52.719 --> 00:52:54.280
they don't end up in burnout.

853
00:52:54.559 --> 00:52:58.119
Yeah, that's really helpful, really helpful, Manik, this has just

854
00:52:58.159 --> 00:53:00.840
been so interesting. I could probably ask you loads more questions,

855
00:53:00.880 --> 00:53:02.960
but I'm going to direct people who are interested to

856
00:53:03.079 --> 00:53:07.840
just check out your podcast, The Neurodivergent Woman. Obviously you've

857
00:53:07.840 --> 00:53:11.039
got a website for the podcast. What about you personally?

858
00:53:11.159 --> 00:53:12.920
Do you have a place where people can go to

859
00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:13.880
find out more about you?

860
00:53:14.679 --> 00:53:16.239
Yeah, so I have our website.

861
00:53:16.360 --> 00:53:19.360
If you just type Montic Mitchelson into Google, it will

862
00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:24.719
pop up. It's hot pink, you can't miss it. And

863
00:53:24.920 --> 00:53:29.119
I also think it's one of my favorite colors. Yeah,

864
00:53:29.480 --> 00:53:29.840
me too.

865
00:53:30.199 --> 00:53:33.039
Oh nice meeting someone else.

866
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:36.519
Who like loves me. That's very pink exactly Why not

867
00:53:36.760 --> 00:53:40.280
like own it? But yeah, I also have a book

868
00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:43.360
coming out on the first of July, and yeah, I

869
00:53:43.360 --> 00:53:47.639
co wrote it with another clinical psychologist, Jennifer Kemp. We're

870
00:53:47.639 --> 00:53:52.559
both neurodivergent clinical psychologists in Australia. And yeah, it's called

871
00:53:53.079 --> 00:53:56.199
the Actually I always forget what it's called.

872
00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:02.039
The Neurodivergence Skills Workbook for Autism and ADHD.

873
00:54:02.320 --> 00:54:07.960
Yes, that's the one, So thank you for looking it

874
00:54:08.039 --> 00:54:10.360
up for me. It's going to be out and we've

875
00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:13.639
written it so that hopefully it is accessible for people.

876
00:54:14.079 --> 00:54:16.800
It's a work book and I'll be also released by

877
00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:19.480
an audiobook as well to try and help it being

878
00:54:19.480 --> 00:54:20.760
more accessible for people.

879
00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:24.039
Well, congratulations, that's amazing. I mean writing a book is

880
00:54:24.079 --> 00:54:26.000
no mean feed. Well done and thank you for all

881
00:54:26.039 --> 00:54:28.000
of the work that you're doing. This is so helpful.

882
00:54:28.039 --> 00:54:30.480
I think people will have will have learned a lot

883
00:54:30.679 --> 00:54:33.280
and anything else I need to know. There's loads of

884
00:54:33.320 --> 00:54:37.639
resources on your website and on the Neurodivergent podcast website.

885
00:54:37.679 --> 00:54:39.360
Thank you so much for your time today, Manie. It

886
00:54:39.360 --> 00:54:40.280
has been such a pleasure.

887
00:54:40.519 --> 00:54:42.000
Thank you so much for having me.

888
00:54:44.079 --> 00:54:46.320
If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a

889
00:54:46.320 --> 00:54:48.599
friend and hit the subscribe button so that you don't

890
00:54:48.599 --> 00:54:50.679
miss new episodes. If you would like me to email

891
00:54:50.719 --> 00:54:52.679
you whenever there is a new app. Just join my

892
00:54:52.719 --> 00:54:55.840
mailing list over at my websitecast done dot com and

893
00:54:56.039 --> 00:54:58.880
as always I cannot wait to catch you next week

894
00:54:58.920 --> 00:55:04.639
for another fabulous episod of Crapy to Happy