Why so many women are being diagnosed with ADHD with Candin Phillips

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A LiSTNR Production

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This is Crappy to Happy and I am your host, Cass Dunn.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, a mindfulness meditation teacher and of course

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also of the Crappy to Happy Books.

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In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people

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who are experts in their field and who have something of value to share that will help

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you feel less crappy and more happy.

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If you're anything like me, you've probably been struck recently by the number of adult

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women being diagnosed with ADHD, that is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

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Many women in the media have spoken publicly about the diagnosis and you might even have

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friends like I do who've also shared with you that they've been diagnosed often after

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their kids have been diagnosed.

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So I've been wanting to have somebody on the show to talk about this for ages and I'm

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very excited today to bring you a conversation with Candin Phillips.

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Candin runs a very popular Instagram account called Humanity Hive which aims to educate

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people about ADHD and she works in the area of coaching, education and training around

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ADHD.

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Candin is a licensed counsellor in the USA.

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She's worked extensively in the mental health field and her work predominantly has been

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in the area of trauma and more recently obviously in ADHD.

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What drew me to Candin was her lived experience of being an adult woman achieving and performing

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in the world and like many women not realising that she was dealing with this particular neurodivergence,

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even despite her professional qualifications.

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I really hope that you enjoy this conversation with Candin.

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Candan Phillips, welcome to the Crap It A Heavy Podcast.

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Thank you, I'm so happy to be here.

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Candin, I love your Instagram page for a start.

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You have an Instagram account called Humanity Hive and you talk about ADHD and particularly

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adult ADHD and I think ADHD and women will get to talking about that in a minute and as

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I was saying to you off air this topic has been high on my list for ages to get somebody

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onto the show to talk about this because I'm from Australia and it seems that suddenly

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in Australia many, many women of a certain age in a women in their 30s, 40s, 50s even are

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suddenly being diagnosed with ADHD and some of them are in the media and therefore they

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have a platform and they're talking about it but even amongst my own social circles,

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you know what I'm seeing happening is number one, a whole lot of women and I would say

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myself included going, "Well, Jesus, have I got ADHD?

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Does this explain all my problems?"

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But on the other hand people saying, "Oh, this is just obviously a load of bullshit."

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Like everybody's just jumping on the ADHD band work and which is, you know, so Candin,

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what is going on?

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Let's just start with explaining what ADHD is.

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I think we all associate it with little boys running around the classroom and climbing

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on the furniture.

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What are the symptoms?

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How does it present, particularly in adults, I guess?

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Yeah.

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So it's interesting, I think we're seeing that phenomenon across the world but also in

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the United States too where women, and especially that kind of middle age and it kind of creeps

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up all of a sudden getting this diagnosis and a lot of that has to do with the education

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around it and the way we thought about it, you know, subtracting years, 90s, 80s and

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you're right.

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When I did my psychology training, right?

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When I was doing my training.

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And even, you know, towards the later part of those years when I was getting my education,

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we didn't talk about ADHD this way either.

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I was way into my career when I was like, "That's what ADHD is.

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Wait, that's what I have.

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No one taught me that and I'm like trained."

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So we typically tend to think of it as a sexual little boy and usually the face of that is

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white.

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Climbing hyper, talking, all the things and once you change the skin color, then we shift

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from an ADHD diagnosis to an ODD or behavioral diagnosis.

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And so even that has connotations that really limit accurate diagnosing.

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And for girls, especially, we weren't even thought to have it.

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This was really thought of as a boy issue.

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And I think what we're seeing is over the years we're learning that with ADHD, girls in

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particular, we're finding even starting in like kindergarten when we start school, we're

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very aware of the societal expectations.

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So girls go to school and we're supposed to be calm, polite, neat, clean, quiet, a helper,

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good grades smart.

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We don't get phone calls from our mommies and daddies.

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And at five, we're picking up on that and we're starting to mask.

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Okay.

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What can I do to be the good little girl who meets all these expectations?

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Not the messy one, not the one who forgets her homework, not the one who's talking out

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and climbing things too.

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That's not what little girls do.

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And so we start masking incredibly young and we start finding ways to manage it.

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And then all of a sudden we look up and we're adults going, what's wrong with me?

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So and I'll rewind a little bit.

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So for talking about ADHD, they're still studying and learning kind of where it comes from.

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There's genetic components.

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There's some parental components, but not necessarily like you call it your kid to have

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ADHD.

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More of just learning that the way we can approach children who are already maybe prone

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to have that genetic component can vary on how it presents.

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And it's core.

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We're looking at like a neurological thing.

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It's affecting our nervous system, which is just our brain and it affects our entire body.

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And it's not just attention and focus.

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We all think about it like squirrel.

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That's kind of how we see it in the media.

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Oh gosh, there's a distraction.

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How cute is that?

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Let me get back to my task.

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And really what we're looking at is issues with executive function and the front part of

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our brain.

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If we're getting scientific here, you know, our prefrontal cortex that we're kind of

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thinking is like our game control for how we're maneuvering through life.

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How do we interact with the world?

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How do we know how to plan?

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How do we know how to manage our impulses, all those things?

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And that is one of the big parts that are hit for people with ADHD.

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We can really struggle with those kind of things.

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So you'll see the typical like forgetfulness, making really some all mistakes, even having

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trouble remembering the thing we're supposed to remember to do.

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And while I think those pieces are obvious, what we're seeing more now is really recognizing

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the emotional hyper arousal and the sensitivity to rejection and things like that that have

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a larger impact on how we function in our life than more than just the forgetful pieces,

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the distractions and things like that.

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We're really seeing that, well, we struggle with emotion regulation.

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We've got really intense feelings and that can affect relationships, that can affect

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jobs, that can affect the way we parent.

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That's the kind of thing that I'm really interested to understand better because, you

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know, now we're seeing other aspects.

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We live in a world clearly where we are highly destructible.

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We've had smartphones and technology and where a million things pulling for our attention

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all of the time and a lot has been said about this, not just for adult brains but kids'

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brains as well.

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So that's when we start going, well, hang on a second.

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This is just because we're on our finds too much.

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So but when you start talking about these other aspects, I guess, that's when I think it's

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you start to be able to, to some degree, perhaps to differentiate or do we?

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Right.

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And so I like to kind of start off when I'm thinking about it with the nervous system.

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And because we all talk about, like you just said, we're all on our phones, we're all kind

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of addicted to technology, we're all picking things up and we're distracted.

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We can't focus for more than, you know, however many seconds.

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But underneath that, even that distractability, for someone who doesn't have ADHD, you probably

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still have a pretty neurotypical nervous system.

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Whereas our nervous system is an interest-based nervous system.

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And that nervous system tends to get us often labeled as lazy, as selfish, as not interested,

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as tunnel visioned.

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And that's because what it is is, let's say, if my husband wakes up and he doesn't have ADHD

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and he looks at his day, he needs to get himself ready, he needs to eat, he needs to go to the

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gym, he's got some work appointments, maybe a lunch with a friend and then he's going to

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come home and do family stuff.

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And he can look at that whole day and there are going to be things in there he doesn't

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want to do.

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So they just need to get done and his nervous system goes, great, all of those are important

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for different reasons, does it matter if you want to do it?

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We're going to make sure you've got dopamine and the chemicals you need to feel confident,

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motivated, capable and to get the job done.

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Have a great day.

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And I wake up with my interest-based nervous system and I'm looking at my day going, I need

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to get clean, I need to get the kid to school, I need to do work, maybe I've got a friend

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thing later, come home, clean cook, whatever.

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And my nervous system goes, uh, yeah.

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I know that's new or exciting or interesting, maybe that lunch with the friend sounds cool,

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you're going to get a little bit of dopamine for that but best of luck on everything else.

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And so what it looks like to the outside world is unless it's something we're really geared

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up to do, it's like pulling us through the mud to get it done.

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Well, if you want to do it, then it's no problem.

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But if I'm asking you to do something that you don't want to do, it's like pulling teeth

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because you don't care, you're lazy.

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And we're going, I really want to do that thing too.

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I know I need to do that thing.

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I can't get myself out of the mud to do it.

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I can't figure out what's wrong either.

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That's the difference in like this attention span and choosing to do things lazy versus,

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you know, distracted.

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I think when we really kind of break it down to that nervous system and how it functions

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across the board.

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I've never heard that expression before, interest-based nervous system.

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I have heard reference to the role of dopamine and I was going to ask you about that.

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So that's essentially what you're saying, that something for the ADHD brain requires like

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a bigger hit of dopamine to be motivated towards doing something.

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Is that what is sort of going on?

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Essentially, we're known to be dopamine vulnerable.

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And ADHD is not the only ones that commit dopamine vulnerable.

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Think about people who have chronic depression, you know, dissiming at that sort of stuff.

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We just don't seem to regulate and they're kind of really tweaking the way they're describing

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it as they do more research, whether it's we don't have enough of it or we don't regulate

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it well.

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But essentially, it's our brain, our nervous system isn't regulating and giving us that dopamine

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and that nice flow that others get.

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We can generally flow a little lower than everybody else.

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So we're already kind of not functioning at that level that my neurotypical husband has.

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And then in moments where we do get really geared up over something, think about that hyper

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focus, we're excited.

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I'm off to find a new hobby type thing and we're all excited about it.

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We can get a rush of dopamine.

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And so all of a sudden now like we kind of blocked the world out and we're locked in and

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I'm about to do this really cool thing for hours and hours and hours because I'm writing

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that dopamine high.

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Oftentimes I think about parents who are like, gosh, pulling my kid off of playing the gaming

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system or the phone or if they're a reader or whatever it is.

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I always get this big emotional reaction when I'm telling them it's time to stop doing

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the thing that they're like locked in on.

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And the way I kind of explain it to a parent is going, you don't have a bratty kid.

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And if you're an adult doing this, you're not a terrible adult either.

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You've been on this dopamine train and all of a sudden you've got a big hit and normally

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you've got really low levels.

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And when we have that big hit of dopamine, all of a sudden we're clear headed.

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We're sharp.

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Things start making sense.

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We feel good and confident.

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And then you're pulling us off of it and just like that we go from really, really high

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to what goes up must come down really, really low.

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And that kind of internal switch, you're going to have an emotional reaction.

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And especially with kids whose brains are developing and the impulses to manage emotions

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aren't they already?

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Yeah, but you did get a pretty nasty response when all of a sudden you pulled them off of

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that thing.

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And that shows up as adults too.

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We're building up to the holiday season.

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Days full of dopamine when the holidays are over, we're probably going to crash and then

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we're going to feel kind of down and be confused as to why.

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Yeah, right.

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And it's a struggle because I think once we start tapping into that and we realize that

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we've got to create some kind of dopamine diet.

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We can't just take the really big highs with the really big lows.

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Okay, I need to prepare myself.

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Yesterday was a really busy day and I got a lot of dopamine off of that, which means today

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I'm probably going to be lower.

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I'm going to be struggling more.

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What can I do to help today be better?

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I'm going to throw on some 90s rap music and peer it with a task I don't want to do

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and we're going to grind it out.

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That's how I'm going to do it.

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I love that.

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I want to go back to the difference between boys and girls and you talked about little girls

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being socially conditioned and that they start masking another interesting term, masking

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their ADHD symptoms.

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Obviously, when we talk about ADHD, it stands for attention deficit, hyperactivity disorder,

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but not everyone has the hyperactivity.

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I think that's where there is some confusion too, right?

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So instead of just calling it ADD, which most a lot of people do, she's short hand ADD,

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they call it ADHD in attentive type.

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So basically just pull that H out, take out the hyperactivity and it's really just more

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of the inattentiveness and that's what I always understood was potentially more likely

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to be happening with girls as opposed to boys.

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Is that true?

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It's been thought of that way for a while and I think what we're actually learning is

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that most people that have ADHD, whether they're classified as an inattentive or hyperactive,

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still have a hyperactive piece.

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But when we think about the diagnostic piece of it, when we say ADHD in attentive, what

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we're actually saying is predominantly in attentive.

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So really what we're saying is like, we're your experiencing probably the most disruption

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and how you're functioning is due to your inattentive piece, maybe not so much your hyperactive

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piece.

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And really what I found fascinating when I kind of went down the rabbit hole of learning

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about this is that when we think of hyperactivity, we still

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think of that little boy who's climbing everything that he's not supposed to be climbing.

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And we think of it as this outward behavior and what we're finding is with children, the

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outward expression of hyperactivity is only 25%.

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The rest of it is internal.

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With adults, it's 5% are we showing outside hyperactivity and the rest is internal.

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And if we're thinking about internal hyperactivity, hyperrousal internal, we're talking about

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things that have probably led to us being misdiagnosed for years.

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I go to the doctor and I'm like, gosh, yeah, I'm having a really hard time sleeping.

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I cannot get my mind to turn off.

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Kind of like these racing thoughts.

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And anytime you go to a clinician or a doctor and you say, "I mind won't turn off racing

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thoughts," you've got anxiety.

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Generalizing anxiety, you're just worrying too much.

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Well, hold the phone.

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I never said all my thoughts were worry thoughts.

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I'm wondering how birds fly.

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I'm looking at the random colors in the house.

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I'm thinking about things I need to do.

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Like there are some worry thoughts, but oftentimes it's just going.

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Everything is connected.

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Our brains had this superpower of really making connections that a neurotypical brain may

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not see, but that also means I see this thing and I can think of 30 other things.

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And I'm just like, I think my brain to be quiet.

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I just really need to go to sleep.

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I'm tired.

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Or we describe what we would talk about anxiety and it's like this restlessness.

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And for me, I always kind of scratch my chest.

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That's where I tend to fill my mind, but some people fill it in their body and their stomachs.

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And it's like, we would classify that mom who can't sit down at the table because she's

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always hopping up to do something else.

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Is that really a mom who's got all these things to do or can she not really sit still long

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enough and has to hop up and attend to all of those thoughts in her head?

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Because if I don't attend to them, I might forget them.

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I might not do them.

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My body feels the need to just go.

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We might see small signs of hyperactivity and not realize what it is because someone is

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learning to manage that internal restlessness by fidgeting with something, by twirling that

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hair, by picking that skin, by bouncing that leg, things that we always tend to think of

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as just an anxiety thing, but could very well be connected to this internal energy restlessness

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hyperactivity that we're trying to manage so we can stay focused.

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00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:36,320
I was actually just reading Gabor Matez book, "Scatadmines", and I realized that he had written

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a book about ADHD and he's been diagnosed himself and through, so of three of his children.

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He was essentially saying, "ADD", he calls it ADD.

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ADD is a diagnosis not of category, but of dimension.

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And at a certain point on the human continuum, characteristics associated with ADD become

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intrusive enough to impair a person's functioning.

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And he goes on to say, "If anyone who exhibits any trait of it were to be diagnosed, we might

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as well put riddeline in the drinking water and sign up most of the industrialized world

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for groups like a therapy."

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In other words, yes, if we all have little bits and pieces of this, the diagnosis is about

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how much does it impact your ability to live your life, do the things you need to get

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done?

296
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Would you agree with that?

297
00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,920
Yeah, so I think that's where those of us who are diagnosed, we get prickly when

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it's like, "Oh, everyone's a little ADD and we're going, "Nod dude, this is not what you think

299
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this is."

300
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Yes, you walked out and forgot your keys, went through twice or you mess up an order or

301
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whatever.

302
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:47,720
I can't function throughout my day without strict routines or tricks or all the things.

303
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:53,560
The amount of energy I put into managing my ADHD so that I can't just do the simple things

304
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is just insane.

305
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:59,000
That's why I was interested to get your take on that because this is why I think people

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00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:03,640
say, "Oh, I get that I procrastinate and I'm forgetful and I'm distractible."

307
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:09,960
So, the degree to which it impacts your life and what you're talking about is an insane

308
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:15,960
degree, I don't mean the word insane, of management that has to go on to just get through.

309
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:16,960
Right.

310
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I think they're finding the ADHD brain, even just to do simple tasks, has to work like

311
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:23,560
three times harder.

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00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:28,320
And so, I often talk about adults, but when I'm usually educating, I kind of reel it back

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to a kid version because usually adults have learned about their diagnosis because their

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kids got diagnosed and they're like, "Wait a minute, that sounded like me."

315
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:41,000
But, you know, we think about these kids that come home and I often hear from parents,

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00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,680
especially if they're kids that are masking really well at school.

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I get no issues at school, she's an angel, everything goes well, her grades are good and I

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come home and I've got this kid who's emotionally all over the place and she's having all these

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00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:57,360
issues and we're struggling and why am I getting this version of a kid and they're getting

320
00:18:57,360 --> 00:18:58,360
that version of the kid?

321
00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:00,840
And I go, "Okay, well, I want you to think for a second.

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00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:05,200
We've educated on what ADHD and how much that brain has to work and you've already got

323
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,880
a child who's masking really well because she wants to be a good kid.

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She doesn't want to have a phone call of the parent, she wants to be smart."

325
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:16,200
So, her brain and her body is working so hard, you sit still and be quiet and still get

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good grades and make friends.

327
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,080
And even if we broke that down to just a simple worksheet, you get it.

328
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,440
You get a worksheet and it should take about five minutes to do and everyone in class has

329
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:31,640
already kind of started and you're looking at it and you're going, "Wait a minute, I can't

330
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,360
figure out what number one is.

331
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:34,360
Everyone else is working."

332
00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:38,240
Okay, I've got a really focus because now I'm aware that everyone's working and I'm aware

333
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,440
that the clock is winding down and I should be done by now.

334
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:42,440
Okay, focus, focus, focus.

335
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,120
Oh, but that question kind of makes me think of this thing and I go down a rabbit hole

336
00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:47,520
over here and I need to come back.

337
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I need to come back.

338
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:50,120
And that's all just internal.

339
00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:53,920
It's just her mind and the awareness that things around her that she's trying to manage and

340
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cut out just so she can do a simple five minute tasks.

341
00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,360
How many five minute tasks do we have in a day?

342
00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:05,040
With that brain, it's constantly having to not just focus on that task, but kick out thoughts

343
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:09,080
that aren't connected, not pay attention to every little thing around us.

344
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Of course, by the end of the day when they're finally home with their safe person, we're

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about to breathe and all the emotions and all the things we've been like white knuckling

346
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,160
through our day to do, it's about to come out.

347
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:23,320
I remember when we did learn about ADHD back when I was doing my training to get a diagnosis.

348
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You gave questionnaires to everybody.

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It's like somebody at home had to do a questionnaires, somebody at school had to do a questionnaires,

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00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,320
like different classes had teachers had to do a questionnaires because for it to be a

351
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:39,360
diagnosis, it had to be a consistent behavior across a lot of different environments.

352
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Is that still the case?

353
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,200
I think it would depend on the clinician you taught to that would probably give you a

354
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,400
very different answer than what I'm going to give you.

355
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:52,840
Yes, we're relying on giving teachers and adults to, like you just said, to tick off the

356
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:57,000
boxes and see if in more than one environment are we seeing this struggle?

357
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:01,640
For some reason, I know that kids spend most of their time at school, but even doctors

358
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,000
can get stuck in, well, if they're fine at school, then they don't have it.

359
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:06,760
That's not the only environment they're in.

360
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:11,920
When you're saying at least two environments, kids are in a lot of environments.

361
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,720
School is a more structured one, which we tend to do well with.

362
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,960
Why are we making that the end all be all?

363
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:21,360
I think I realize even more so that that wasn't the most effective thing when I used to work

364
00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:26,040
in a school that was for special education students, it was self-contained, big behavior

365
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:27,040
issues.

366
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,400
So like a very small school, very clinical and the way we approached it.

367
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,400
And I sat down with a teacher and I was like, we need to do this Vanderbilt, the psychiatrist,

368
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,560
is asking me to do it for this kid.

369
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:37,920
Clearly she has ADHD, but I need your input.

370
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,480
And she went down the list and I remember the question specifically.

371
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,880
She was like, is she disruptive in class and she said no, and she kept going.

372
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:44,880
So wait a minute.

373
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,240
Why did you hit no on that?

374
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,840
She's like, oh, well, she's not like my other kids, the behavioral.

375
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,680
You know, they're like throwing a desk or they're arguing or they're up and down.

376
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,560
I was like, right.

377
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:58,040
But what she does struggle with is being able to recognize that she's okay in doing the

378
00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,600
work that she's doing.

379
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,200
And there's a lot of emotion, dysregulation there or she's got other questions and some

380
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:04,680
distractability.

381
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:10,040
Does that disrupt your flow of teaching and the flow of how your classroom is running?

382
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,840
And she went, oh, yeah, it is disruptive.

383
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,840
I do have to stop and go address these behaviors.

384
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,880
It's like, right, but your brain was only thinking about these behaviors that you're saying in

385
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:19,960
the bullways.

386
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:25,680
And so even when we thought about disruption, I realized we're giving these documents to

387
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:30,120
teachers and we're not training them on what exactly we're looking for here.

388
00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:33,920
That was a big light bulb for me going, I don't think this is the most effective way.

389
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,480
It can be helpful for the obvious one, I think.

390
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:43,760
But for the masking child and the more quieter representations of it, the internal hyperactivity

391
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:48,720
versus the out-turnal representation that some kids show more than others, we're missing.

392
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:50,560
We're missing a lot of kids when we do that.

393
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,360
Just to change, tack a little bit, Ken, and how did you get your diagnosis?

394
00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:55,960
What's your story?

395
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,760
I'm the oldest of different kids.

396
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:04,600
I've got kind of a divorce background, but my closest sibling is 11 years younger than

397
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:05,600
me.

398
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,840
I remember him, he was diagnosed off the bat in elementary school.

399
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,440
He was your typical hyperboy.

400
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:13,440
And I was getting ready.

401
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:18,040
I think I was already in college or going to college and was just sharing that I was really

402
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:19,440
struggling to keep up.

403
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:20,800
I had great grades.

404
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:25,120
No one would have ever thought that I had ADHD, but I knew I was starting to realize that,

405
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:29,640
yeah, but I'm spending five hours to prepare for this test and they're spending two.

406
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,160
And the minute I get that information on the paper, I could not tell you for the life

407
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:34,880
of me what that test was about.

408
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:36,600
I can't recall the information.

409
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,200
I'm struggling with that a little bit.

410
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:43,160
It wasn't until I really even got into studying for my degree and getting into my masters where

411
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,280
I was like, oh, yeah, this is what I have.

412
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:47,800
This is what it is.

413
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,680
And then I don't think I really even tried to start taking stimulant medicine until I was

414
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,600
in my late 20s and experimented with that.

415
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,960
I'm still kind of finding the right cocktail of what I like.

416
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:04,480
Honestly, I didn't fully understand my diagnosis and the gravity of what ADHD actually

417
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:10,680
is until nine years into being a therapist and I just happened to stumble across an article

418
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,560
about interspace nervous system and rejection sensitivity.

419
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,520
And I was like, oh, my gosh, we're mistreating like half of our case load of kids.

420
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,520
They all have ADHD and we have no idea that that's all because of ADHD that we're looking

421
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:22,520
at these behaviors.

422
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:27,200
We're thinking it's five other diagnosis and it was just eye opening.

423
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,800
I think that's the other thing that leads to confusion too.

424
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:35,320
So oftentimes, I guess when we talk about, like you said, in children, it's the climbing

425
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:36,320
the walls.

426
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:42,280
And statistically, I think people with ADHD tend to be more under employed or have difficulty

427
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:43,720
holding down jobs and things like that.

428
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,520
But actually, many are performing really well.

429
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,960
They're actually doing really well in life.

430
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,720
I think that's a real misconception as well, right?

431
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:57,000
So people think you couldn't possibly have ADHD because look at how well you're doing

432
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,760
and how successful you're doing and you're aching it and you've got to succeed.

433
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:05,200
That's problematic for more than just the fact that we're missing the diagnosis and the

434
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:06,200
support.

435
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:11,160
But then you've also got the people who are successful in doing well, really shaming themselves

436
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:16,880
because, well, I must really just be lazy or there must be something wrong with me in

437
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,680
another way because they're telling me it's not that even though it really feels like

438
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,000
that.

439
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,480
And I had someone comment on a post.

440
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,680
It was just the other day that she went into the doctor's office and because she was

441
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,720
reading a book in the lobby, they dismissed her and said, there's no way.

442
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,320
Because you're able to read a book.

443
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:32,320
What?

444
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:33,320
No one said we were stupid.

445
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:34,320
Wow.

446
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,160
And we're not questioning intelligence.

447
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,840
There are many of us that we are resourceful and we're usually pretty adaptive and that's

448
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,280
sometimes you hear there were like a superpower.

449
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,440
There are some perks of having ADHD.

450
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:51,760
I don't know if they for me out that way, the struggles, but we do have an ability to look

451
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:56,600
at a situation and find an alternative way to solve a problem or in a different approach.

452
00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,960
The argument, I think, for many is, is that the way our brain is wired that we're able to

453
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:06,600
do that or is it because we live in a world that's neurotypical, that we have to find alternative

454
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,600
ways to do things for us to be able to function?

455
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,880
And so I think those of us that have been successful, we've got degrees, we're working,

456
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:18,120
we're happily married, whatever you can, you know, determine success to be, we have found

457
00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:23,280
ways to function in this world so that we can be successful.

458
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,680
It's not going to look like a neurotypical person, does it more than likely?

459
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,680
We've probably got 15 more systems than you even know about, more alarms and more checklist

460
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:35,040
than it, that God should allow for us to just get out the door, but we have found a way

461
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,320
to do it so that we can be successful.

462
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:43,640
But as you're sort of alluding to a Canon, that success often comes at a cost emotionally,

463
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:44,640
psychologically.

464
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:50,920
Like, what are the other problems that people tend to face or people tend to experience?

465
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,720
They have ADHD and it isn't correctly diagnosed.

466
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,480
Like you mentioned before about the feelings of shame and, you know, feeling like a loser.

467
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:03,400
Yeah, so, you know, likely if they weren't diagnosed, and some even if they were diagnosed,

468
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,680
you know, the parents still didn't quite understand what that meant.

469
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:11,440
So there's, you're still hearing, you know, five times more negative comments than positive

470
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,440
comments a day of, why can't you?

471
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:18,400
If you would just, it seems like you're selfish, lazy, so you hear that all the time.

472
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:23,680
And at some point, you're going to start internalizing it, but we can struggle with co-occurring

473
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:30,160
issues, especially when we're not treating ADHD, anxiety, depression, burnout is probably

474
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:35,600
like the big light up header over our heads with all those kind of things underneath, because

475
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,880
we work really, really hard and we tend to have to work harder and then we kind of do that

476
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,920
in bursts and kind of like that dopamine thing that I was talking about.

477
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,800
Well, burn ourselves out and like work till three in the morning on things to just finally

478
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,200
get it all done and then we can't move or function for however many days afterwards.

479
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:56,400
So that can show up in the pattern of work where all of a sudden it's like, well, they're

480
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:57,400
inconsistent.

481
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,640
They sometimes they can really crank it out and do really well on other times, like I can't

482
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,080
get anything out of them, because they're desperately trying to, to meet expectations

483
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,080
in the way they can.

484
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:13,000
And I think one of my earlier posts about ADHD was, you know, kind of making light of women

485
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,200
showing up and going, you know, like, I've got anxiety and depression and what I'm doing

486
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,160
is not working in the medicine side helping and it's like, that's not that it's actually

487
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:22,800
ADHD is your root source.

488
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,280
That's like bleeding out and causing anxiety and depression, but we're not touching the

489
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:27,280
root.

490
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,480
That doesn't mean everybody who has anxiety and depression has ADHD.

491
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:30,480
No.

492
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,680
I always have to give that disclaimer because they'll come out wagging their finger at me.

493
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:35,240
That's not what I'm saying.

494
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:36,240
That tends to happen.

495
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,800
You can have those issues that are either alongside ADHD and you've got both or you

496
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:46,480
can have anxiety and depression because of your ADHD and you feel like a failure because

497
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,120
you're not able to struggle and you're worried.

498
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:49,120
I'm going to forget this.

499
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,320
I need to like think about that appointment and think about it and think about it and think

500
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:53,320
about it.

501
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:54,320
So I don't forget it.

502
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,640
Even though I've written it down, I've lost the thing that I wrote it down on, you know,

503
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:01,720
the list goes on and on and so, you know, exhaustion, burnout.

504
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,200
I mean, you know, we don't tend to think about fatigue when we think about ADHD.

505
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:13,080
We think it's this hyper-pursuing running around, but it's more so retired and trying really

506
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,320
hard to meet everyone's expectations.

507
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:23,320
I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realising the benefits of positivity in

508
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:24,320
your own life.

509
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,640
If you are enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe so that you get notified

510
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,880
when you epsdrop and head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and leave

511
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,040
us a rating and review.

512
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:45,000
One term, you've mentioned a couple of times is hyper-fixation.

513
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,280
I think that's another thing and you've sort of touched on what that is because there's

514
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,800
this perception that people with ADHD can't focus on anything.

515
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,400
When in fact, sometimes they can super focus.

516
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,040
Do you want to just describe that just briefly, yeah?

517
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:03,400
I think if you follow enough ADHD staff, inevitably you'll see a meme somewhere that's

518
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:08,280
asking about what do you think ADHD should actually be named because attention deficit doesn't

519
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:09,760
feel true.

520
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:10,760
I agree with that.

521
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,680
It doesn't feel like I have an attention deficit.

522
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:18,760
It's almost like I am aware of everything and knowing how to focus and regulate that attention

523
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,600
aware it should be is my struggle, not that I'm not aware of the things that I should be

524
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:23,600
doing.

525
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:29,040
It tends to come from usually things that we're really interested in, new, novel, exciting,

526
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:33,160
which is why you'll often hear that we're a jack of many trades because we've got a thousand

527
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:38,280
hobbies that we've started maybe finished if we're lucky, maybe stop somewhere in the middle

528
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,000
and kept going.

529
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,160
But when we get something that's new and exciting, we do get that dopamine hit and we want

530
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:45,160
to learn everything about it.

531
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,960
I'm going to tell you the history of this new thing.

532
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,840
I've got all the things that should make this go well, this art craft, whatever it is.

533
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:58,120
I may never actually do it, but I have learned and I've like deep dive studied on it.

534
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,560
We can know a lot of stuff, which is really cool.

535
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,400
We can't always justify that knowledge, which I think is why sometimes we can get ourselves

536
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:06,400
small.

537
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:07,600
It's like, "Where did you learn that?"

538
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:08,920
I don't know.

539
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,000
Deep dive on the internet for five hours last night.

540
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,080
Where's your scientific backup for that information?

541
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,040
It's more of that dopamine gets really high and we get focused in on that.

542
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,360
Our ability to regulate off of it is what we can struggle with.

543
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:28,200
We can struggle to transition from a focused state to something else.

544
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:29,800
Transitions in general can be tough.

545
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:36,160
Again, because it's a shifting, I'm having to stop this, shift it to something else and activate

546
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:37,800
to something else.

547
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:45,000
That takes a lot more executive function than sometimes we are gifted with.

548
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,600
The other thing I guess I've seen referred to is that I've got this thing to do that's

549
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,280
really important, but it's not very interesting.

550
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:58,520
Therefore, I'm going to go over here and spend five hours doing this other thing.

551
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,520
I procrastinate working.

552
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,440
I'm a great one for that too, by the way.

553
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,760
I can find a million other things to do to avoid doing.

554
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,960
That are more interesting to me than the one thing that is necessary.

555
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:17,240
They're more interesting and they're probably less draining for you mentally.

556
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:18,240
Yes.

557
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,480
That was the end piece add on for me.

558
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:26,080
I was like, "Oh, am I necessarily more interested in doing my shows versus writing this paper?"

559
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,760
No, but that takes way less mental energy for me.

560
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:30,760
I'm going to go do that.

561
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,600
For me, that's tinkering in the back end of my website or something.

562
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,760
Something little, something techie that I can spend hours and hours doing rather than

563
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,120
doing that thing that's actually important for my business.

564
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:43,120
Right.

565
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:44,520
I'll throw out some fun videos.

566
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:50,160
I'm probably not going to respond to those emails that I've had flagged for three weeks.

567
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:51,160
I do also like Kenan.

568
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:52,360
It's the email time.

569
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:53,360
Turn on the music.

570
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,240
Turn away the phone.

571
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,760
E-mails are what you're doing for the next five minutes.

572
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,720
Hyperfixation was one that you mentioned the other time blindness.

573
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,200
Tell me about time blindness.

574
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,320
Time is fickle for us for a few reasons.

575
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,560
We tend to live in the now.

576
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:12,560
Now and not now.

577
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,600
In general, we can be all or nothing people.

578
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:19,480
We have to work really hard to not make everything a black and white all or nothing situation.

579
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:26,320
For us time, it feels like everything we're doing now is urgent and important.

580
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:32,680
If it comes across my table now, I have a hard time recognizing that I could put that off

581
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,240
later and it would still get done.

582
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,360
I don't have to do everything now, not everything is urgent.

583
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:43,920
When I think about time blindness, we don't do well in our awareness of how quickly things

584
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:45,440
time goes.

585
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:50,200
We think we've spent five minutes in the bathroom and it's 15-20 and oh my gosh, relate.

586
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,520
For me, I don't know, and this is going to be an asterisk.

587
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,360
I don't know if this is clinically accurate.

588
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:58,640
But I'm learning more about some of our sensory interception as one of our senses.

589
00:33:58,640 --> 00:33:59,640
We've got eight senses.

590
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,160
Interception is one that everyone has.

591
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:06,600
It's that awareness of our internal emotions, hunger, thirst, all that kind of stuff, bathroom

592
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:07,800
urges.

593
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,440
I think I always have a question mark.

594
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,360
Is awareness for us time related to that too?

595
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,920
We're not able to judge how long it's taking us to do something, I don't know.

596
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,720
But I do know that we often feel like we're in a hurry.

597
00:34:20,720 --> 00:34:24,240
Because for us, for time, it's kind of like if we don't do it now, if it doesn't happen

598
00:34:24,240 --> 00:34:27,320
now, our brain almost says it will never happen.

599
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,480
So, we're rushing all the time.

600
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,640
We're forgetting things because we're trying to cram too much into one time.

601
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,360
If we're locked into something, especially if we're hyperfocus into something, it's not

602
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:38,960
just time that we get blind to.

603
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,760
I sometimes won't hear someone trying to get my attention or notice things around

604
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,840
me because I am just like tunnel vision locked in.

605
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,280
That means all of my senses are locked in.

606
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:54,680
It's again part of that executive function piece is being able to take notice of time.

607
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:59,040
I think that for me, I can have the misconception and I often think that things are going to

608
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:00,200
take a lot longer than they do.

609
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:04,680
I think I did a video yesterday of like, "I need to clean up my son's room of toys."

610
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,280
I had a hot pocket in the microwave for two minutes and forty seconds.

611
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,240
I went in there and I literally had this floor cleaned up in two minutes and forty seconds.

612
00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:16,360
There's my brain and I was like, "That's going to take you thirty minutes to get that done."

613
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,560
We don't have a great read on time.

614
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,960
That can also play into our sleep issues.

615
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:26,880
I think the way I read it being described is kind of like our circadian clock is off a

616
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:27,880
bit.

617
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:29,920
This kind of pairs with hyperactivity a bit.

618
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,360
It's all kind of like strung together in these weird little ways as ADHD is.

619
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:39,280
But even with time and that circadian clock rhythm, everyone else's bodies are starting

620
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,200
to wind down as the day gets darker and as we get closer to bedtime.

621
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,880
Bodies recognize that as that clock shifts, it should calm us a bit and we should start to

622
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:48,240
slow down and get ready for sleep.

623
00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:52,640
Whereas it's almost kind of like, come seven pm, everyone else is winding down and our

624
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,160
bodies are kind of going, "No, it's like three thirty pm.

625
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,920
Here's your other boost of energy to get through the back half of this day and you're

626
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:00,840
going, "Oh, for the love of God, I need to sleep.

627
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:02,320
I don't need energy."

628
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:07,480
So even that sense of time for us is often it can affect our sleep cycle is really

629
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:08,480
in a big way.

630
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:14,080
And see how all of these things, all of these manifestations of ADHD would cause people

631
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,240
to just generally feel shit about themselves.

632
00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:22,880
I just feel like they, like you said, internalizing those ideas about, "I'm just, something's

633
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:27,160
wrong with me and I'm just disorganised and I'm just lazy and I'm just unproductive and

634
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,440
I never get the things done or the important things done."

635
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:37,960
What I'm really interested in, Candon, is how widespread trauma is in our society.

636
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:43,160
And it occurs to me that the impact that trauma has on the developing brain and the way that

637
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:49,640
plays out is often very, looks very similar to the way an ADHD brain works.

638
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,720
And I mentioned that to a friend of mine just recently, you know, she was talking about,

639
00:36:53,720 --> 00:36:58,040
I think one of her kids had a symptoms of ADHD and I mentioned that to her as if you look

640
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:04,480
at them like a Venn diagram, like the overlaps between trauma manifestations, I guess, and

641
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,360
ADHD symptoms, they've very much overlap.

642
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,080
What's your take on that?

643
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,920
I guess not that trauma causes ADHD or does it?

644
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,280
How much does it play into the diagnosis of ADHD?

645
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,520
Yeah, no, I agree.

646
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:23,000
I think as clinicians, especially when we're having to diagnose, if someone walks in that's

647
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:29,680
got a significant trauma history, a lot of times people won't even look twice to investigate

648
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,840
further into possible ADHD because we assume that it's just the trauma and it may just

649
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:40,080
be because they do, they can manifest and show up in such similar ways.

650
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:47,720
And I think even the more that we're looking into it, people with ADHD, we tend to have traumatic

651
00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:50,280
experiences in our past.

652
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,400
And I've had people kind of question, especially on humanity, have like, well, isn't that just

653
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,400
because like they had a shitty parent or a shitty lifestyle or, you know, upbringing.

654
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:58,400
I'm like, not necessarily.

655
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:03,040
I've had really young children come in with healthy families, nothing's happened.

656
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,600
And they still have ADHD.

657
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,480
And so I don't think it's necessarily always because of it.

658
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:13,160
But I think that kind of plays into what I said earlier, you know, how, where does it come

659
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:14,560
from?

660
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,160
Even just this year, I think some articles came out recognizing that like, there's definitely

661
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,720
genetic components clearly, you know, you've got a parent has it and their three kids have

662
00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:22,720
it.

663
00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:26,040
It doesn't mean that everyone's going to, but like, yeah, there's genetics are there.

664
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:31,040
But then they're also finding that parenting or the household they're in does play an

665
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:36,400
effect in either if those symptoms are going to show up and be disruptive or if they're just

666
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,600
going to be mild and manageable.

667
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,160
And I think that's kind of where we come into the trauma piece.

668
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:42,600
Toxic stress is trauma.

669
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:47,240
If you're living in a household where things are unpredictable, ie, maybe an undiagnosed

670
00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:51,080
parent with ADHD, your environment's not predictable.

671
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,920
Their emotions are all over the place because we haven't really intense emotions.

672
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,080
And if we're not managing them well, that's traumatic.

673
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,800
You know, why is my parent blowing up at me all of a sudden when I did this exact same

674
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,000
thing two days ago and it wasn't an issue?

675
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:04,720
It's not a predictable environment.

676
00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:07,480
That's traumatic and people don't think about that.

677
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:12,600
And so I think I often just personally think about, you know, we're looking at adults who

678
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:17,560
got ADHD and we're finding traumas in the past that it's sometimes due to growing up

679
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:19,600
in an undiagnosed ADHD household.

680
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:24,200
And that can just produce a lot of unpredictability and sometimes toxic behavior.

681
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,200
So yeah, I think the brain can look very similar for both.

682
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:29,680
And I mean, it's interesting, isn't it?

683
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:36,800
Like you just said, we see a family sort of lineage of ADHD and say, oh, there's clearly

684
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,040
a genetic component there.

685
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:40,920
And I think clearly there is.

686
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,000
But trauma is also intergenerational.

687
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:50,920
You know, trauma, trauma, matized parents will often traumatized kids.

688
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:52,480
And it's the spectrum as well, right?

689
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,880
I think you make the very valid point.

690
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,420
And this is the thing that I'm trying to get at a lot on this podcast as well, that all

691
00:39:58,420 --> 00:40:01,000
trauma is not that big deal.

692
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,760
Trauma, it's for a little child, anything that makes your world feel unpredictable and unsafe.

693
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,600
It's the internal reaction that you have to that.

694
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:10,240
That is the trauma response.

695
00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:12,760
It doesn't have to be some big massive.

696
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,160
It can be traumatic for me and not traumatic for you.

697
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,520
But then it begs me in my brain differently.

698
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,200
So I will have a consequence of that.

699
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:22,200
Yeah, for sure.

700
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:27,320
In Australia, I mean, I was just following somebody the other day on social media as well.

701
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:29,560
She's a media personality in Australia.

702
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:35,400
And she was, she was having a bit of a rant actually because some influencer had posted

703
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:40,000
on her Instagram story that all these influences were jumping on the ADHD fad.

704
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:47,520
And she was saying it took her 18 months and thousands of dollars to get a diagnosis

705
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:48,520
in Australia.

706
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,000
I don't know what it's like in the US.

707
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,640
But what is the process these days?

708
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,480
Presume that you need to see a psychiatrist.

709
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:55,800
That's the process in Australia.

710
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,320
You actually have to be referred to a psychiatrist to have the assessment done.

711
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:04,360
We can all sort of, as therapists, we can have a provisional diagnosis.

712
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,960
We can kind of say we think this is what it is, but it actually requires a medical professional

713
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,680
to diagnose and prescribe medication for it.

714
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:12,840
Is it the same where you are?

715
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:14,600
It's actually, it's not the same.

716
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:19,320
I'm learning that more and more that there's much more limitations outside of the United

717
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:20,600
States for this.

718
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,760
So no, the process, it doesn't have to be by a psychiatrist.

719
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,760
Even where I live, it's almost been kind of the reverse.

720
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,400
Like, you know, parents will take their kids to, like, say the pediatrician.

721
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,600
They're talking about concerns, behaviorally and the pediatrician.

722
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:36,240
There's a shortage definitely of psychiatrists.

723
00:41:36,240 --> 00:41:40,080
We have a lot of general practitioners prescribing medicine and they don't always feel comfortable

724
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:41,080
doing that.

725
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:42,880
So they will refer them even to a therapist.

726
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,080
So I would get a lot of referrals as a licensed professional therapist.

727
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:51,360
I'm not a doctor because this is ended up being what I've specialized in and I've got excellent

728
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,720
assessment tools that I feel like are trusted.

729
00:41:53,720 --> 00:41:59,760
Then I'll give the diagnosis and write up, you know, the areas of function that they're

730
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:04,360
struggling with and which, you know, whether they're in a tentative or hyperactive or combined

731
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,720
and send that documentation back and then all of a sudden they'll get the medicine.

732
00:42:08,720 --> 00:42:13,800
So often, I think here in the United States, we are a lot clinicians are doing a lot of

733
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:18,520
the therapists are doing a lot of the diagnostics and then sending those referrals for people

734
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,560
to take that to the doctor or even to a psychiatrist.

735
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:22,560
Yeah, interesting.

736
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:23,560
And you do make a good point.

737
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,200
It might be that pediatricians in Australia can diagnose children.

738
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,280
I'm not sure about that.

739
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:34,560
Candidate you now also do ADHD coaching and that is a thing.

740
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:36,160
I'm seeing that a lot online.

741
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:37,760
This ADHD coaching.

742
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,680
So I guess my question probably just to wrap this up is like, what if you have been diagnosed,

743
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,920
if you are thinking, oh my god, this is me and you do get a diagnosis, like what are the

744
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:46,920
treatment options?

745
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:51,480
Obviously, there is medication and then there are services like such as what you provide.

746
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:55,600
There's a lot of things out there and again, I think people may find something more beneficial

747
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,280
than someone else because we're all individuals.

748
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,040
So you may have more trauma than I do and may need something a little bit different.

749
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:01,320
So there's definitely medicine out there.

750
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,000
We've heard about those, you know, you have a stimulant medicine and a non-simulant medicine.

751
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:10,440
There's a lot of supplements and there's a lot of new kind of science going into new tropics

752
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,120
and things like that and it all depends on the person you ask as to whether they find

753
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:15,680
one beneficial or not.

754
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:20,560
Getting the right nutrients and supplements and eating well and sleeping well are huge because

755
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:22,760
that's what makes our brain function clearly.

756
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,800
Then you go into having, you know, you can do therapy approaches with things like cognitive

757
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:28,520
behavioral therapy.

758
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,800
It can be helpful and really more of just kind of reframing how we think about what we're

759
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,120
doing kind of like my video yesterday.

760
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:39,760
I'm in this like, I can't stage and I really need to remind myself, no, I can do this and

761
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,560
that kind of helped me get on the train of doing what I need to do that day.

762
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:49,080
I also find that I think there is a lot of benefit in things like occupational therapy when

763
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,040
we're thinking especially for younger children.

764
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:56,560
It's a nervous system issue and you've got a occupational therapist who's trained in being

765
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,240
a sensory therapist, sensory integration.

766
00:43:59,240 --> 00:44:03,160
They're addressing all of the nervous system pieces that really help a lot with regulation

767
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,840
of emotion, impulses, things like that.

768
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,720
So especially when I've got people coming to me, families that don't want their kids to

769
00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:11,800
start off with medicine yet, like you need to go get an OTE valve.

770
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:16,760
These are really helpful because we have such emotional dysregulation, not unsimilar to

771
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:18,840
some personality disorders.

772
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:23,360
Dialectical behavioral therapy, DBT, I think is very helpful in managing that emotion

773
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,440
dysregulation piece.

774
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,880
Rejection sensitivity dysphoria that we can function in.

775
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,440
I also like acceptance commitment therapy.

776
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,440
Sometimes we have to really come to terms with this is who I am and this is the way I am.

777
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,080
I can still be okay and I can still work with this, but wishing and hoping I'm going to find

778
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:40,880
the magic thing to make this go away.

779
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:42,920
These are all the things that I love.

780
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:48,560
Everything mindfulness based, the act, DBT, I think they're really, really helpful.

781
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:52,480
Actually, before you go, Ken and I said we were winding this up, but rejection sensitivity

782
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:56,520
dysphoria, that's another term that is one that I've only recently become aware of in

783
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:57,760
the last couple of years.

784
00:44:57,760 --> 00:44:59,520
Can you just describe that quickly?

785
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:00,520
Yes.

786
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:01,520
So it translates.

787
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,480
It's a great translation.

788
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,560
Basically, rejection is too much for us to bear.

789
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,120
If you talk to people that experienced it and they used to think it was only 80% of ADHD

790
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,760
or so, now they're thinking that pretty much everyone who has ADHD experiences it on some

791
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:15,080
level.

792
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:21,000
Any form of rejection, whether it's real or we perceive it, we think it might happen, can

793
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,680
cause significant emotional pain.

794
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:25,600
It's not really when described like a physical pain.

795
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:30,520
It almost feels like if there is a moment or situation where I feel like I failed, I wasn't

796
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:36,040
perfect, I didn't meet the expectations, you didn't like me, you actually rejected me.

797
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,680
I didn't get top marks, I wasn't the best.

798
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,880
I had to practice, I wasn't immediately good at it.

799
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:47,960
Whatever you can put in the umbrella of rejection, it can feel like almost a truck is hitting

800
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:48,960
me.

801
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:54,080
It is so intense, some people describe physical pain with it, but we can ruminate on that

802
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:57,120
and get stuck on it and it can limit us.

803
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:01,200
We can go into extreme avoidance because of that rejection sensitivity.

804
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:05,800
Avoidance could look like pushing people away even if we love them and care about them because

805
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,400
we're already worried about when they're going to leave us.

806
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,960
We're already worried about our mistakes that we're going to make.

807
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:16,000
Not going for a job or not starting a new hobby because I might not immediately be good

808
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:20,400
at that or I might have to practice and practice means failure and mistakes and I can't handle

809
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:21,400
mistakes.

810
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:23,360
So I'm going to keep myself small.

811
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,680
For people who experience it, if I'm thinking about how I make decisions and choices and

812
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,760
putting myself out on the internet, oh my God, that was huge.

813
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:35,400
For me to even show my face and start talking because my brain's telling me you're an imposter,

814
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,400
they're going to find out you're not good at this, you're going to make a mistake and

815
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:39,400
mistakes aren't allowed.

816
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:44,080
If you make a mistake, then you're canceled and you're done, like the snowball effect.

817
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:48,680
That can happen over a little kid wanting to go across the playground and make friends.

818
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:50,800
They're not going to like me, they're going to think I'm stupid.

819
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:55,560
I'm not worthy of having friends and then you, you know, times a hundred for the adult world.

820
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,560
It can be really hard to navigate life when you're struggling with that.

821
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:03,160
Yeah, hence more anxiety, depression, diagnosis and around.

822
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:04,160
We go.

823
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,360
And around and around and around, yeah.

824
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,920
It's so interesting you're talking about that, Canon, because recently in the last couple

825
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:15,600
of years, it's really shifted the focus of my own work to working with women around self-confidence

826
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:20,760
and particularly overcoming imposter syndrome and cultivating more kind of self-worth and

827
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:21,760
self-belief.

828
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:27,080
And my focus and my approach with that is because everything that I read about imposter syndrome

829
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,760
and what to do about it, I think doesn't even touch the surface of dealing with true imposter

830
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:31,760
syndrome.

831
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:36,920
I think people are very good at giving you ways to overcome pretty normal self-doubt, whereas

832
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:38,760
imposter syndrome runs much deeper.

833
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:44,720
And my approach often has to do with, you know, managing your nervous system, nervous

834
00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:48,000
system responses to fear of rejection.

835
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:52,880
We talk about the procrastination, the perfectionism loop that runs.

836
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:57,160
And I'm now thinking that I really need to be incorporating something into my own program

837
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:02,920
about ADHD because potentially a lot of these women that I'm working with who are experiencing

838
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:07,960
really serious kind of imposter syndrome, really holding themselves back.

839
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,560
And it is much, much worse than just standard self-doubt.

840
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,760
Then potentially there is an ADHD thing going on here.

841
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:18,640
Because we talk about trauma, we talk about the impact that that has, the shame, how that

842
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,000
impacts all of these things that you're talking about.

843
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,400
I think for at least some of these women that's potentially what is going on.

844
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:26,400
Right.

845
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:30,440
And then you can even just show up and assuming that your partner, your friends are always

846
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:34,440
mad at you because they've got not a smiling, I mean, it's like we can twist the smallest

847
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,360
thing and all of a sudden everyone's mad at us and we're failing.

848
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:38,360
That's a lot to manage too.

849
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:39,600
And we're thinking about fatigue.

850
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:44,240
That's just one more thing that we're having to like check and manage and regulate and check

851
00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:48,200
for evidence for just to get through sometimes basic interactions.

852
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,880
Canon, this has been the most fascinating conversation.

853
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:52,080
Thank you so much for making the time.

854
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,960
I know everybody is going to love this because everybody's got the same questions and you've

855
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:57,920
done a really great job of answering them for us.

856
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,280
So thank you so much for talking to me today.

857
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:02,280
Absolutely.

858
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:03,280
Thanks for having me on.

859
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,280
This has been a blast.

860
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:14,680
To find out more about Candin and her work in ADHD coaching go to humanityhive.info her Instagram

861
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:19,480
account, which is very popular, as I said, is at humanity_hive.

862
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:26,560
Obviously, my Instagram and TikTok @casdunn_xo please come and connect with me there.

863
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:33,040
If you like the show, please do subscribe, leave us a five star rating and a nice review.

864
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:41,800
And I cannot wait to catch you in the next episode of “Crappy to Happy."

865
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:51,800
[MUSIC]