Sept. 30, 2024

Your Brain on Dopamine with Dr Anastasia Hronis

Your Brain on Dopamine with Dr Anastasia Hronis
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Your Brain on Dopamine with Dr Anastasia Hronis
Your Brain on Dopamine with Dr Anastasia Hronis
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Season 13 Psychology & Neuroscience

This week, Cass and Dr Anastasia Hronis delve into the complexities of dopamine, its role in pleasure and motivation, and how modern conveniences can lead to excessive dopamine activation. Anastasia is the author of 'The Dopamine Brain' and she's here to assure you that you do not need a "Dopamine Detox". Instead, she discusses the importance of finding balance between hedonic and eudaimonic pleasures, the significance of identifying personal values, and practical strategies for managing dopamine-driven behaviours. The conversation emphasises the need for meaningful alternatives to quick dopamine hits and highlights the benefits of music, movement, and social connections in enhancing well-being.

Connect with Dr Anastasia Hronis:
www.linkedin.com/in/anastasiahroniswww.instagram.com/anastasia.hronis



Connect with Cass:

www.cassdunn.com
www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypod
www.tiktok.com/@crappytohappypod


Are you a coach, therapist, service provider or solopreneur struggling with self-doubt and imposter syndrome? I'd love to talk to you! (for market research purposes only!)

Book a call with me to share your experience.

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Transcript
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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Cas Done.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist. I'm mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In

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this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

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people who are experts in their field and who have

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something of value to share that will help you feel

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less crappy and more happy. Most of us have at

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some point felt like we were lacking control over certain habits.

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So what if you could understand how the brain works

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and use that knowledge to regain control over those habits

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and start leading a more fulfilling life. Whether it is shopping, scrolling, eating,

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drinking drugs or gambling. All of these behaviors and more

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can trigger a release of dopamine, which is a neurotransmitter

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in your brain that is involved in the brain's reward system. Now,

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when those dopamine levels get disrupted, we can find it

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really hard to break those habits, and those habits probably

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do not align with your core values well Thankfully. Doctor

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Anastasia heronas a clinical psychologist and founder of the Australian

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Institute for Human Wellness, has recently published a book called

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the dopamine Brain, which offers a very clear and practical

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way to help you break those habits and find more

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balance and.

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Meaning in your life. Anastasia heronas Welcome to Crappy to

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Happy Hello, thank you for having me.

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We were just having a little chitchat about how we

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met years ago in a Facebook group for was.

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It called Sachs Online. It was basically.

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Psychologists who were doing like non mainstream kind of working

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in the media, working online, and it was this little

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color of psychs who were doing stuff out of the box.

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And so that's where we met years ago.

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Yes, it's always nice to consider the other ways we

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can work as psychologists as well and have some sort

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of reach.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And so now here we are, all these years later

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with you promoting your book on my podcast.

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So there you go.

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There you go.

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Now speaking of the book and as days, that is

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why we were here. Dopamine it is such a hot topic.

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I was so excited to see that you published this

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book because I've had on my list for ages for

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potential podcast guests, somebody to talk about dopamine, because everybody's

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kind of really into it and whether it's good for

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you or bad for you, and it's role in ADHD

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and all sorts of things.

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So I'm super excited to have this conversation.

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But from the get go, what is dopamine and what

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is the role that it plays in our neurology? I

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guess because I think there's a misconception about that.

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Yes, absolutely, I love that dopamine, of all things, has

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become a hot topic. And who would have thought, But

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here we are, so dopamine. Yes, let's bust some of

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the myths and kind of talk about what it is. So,

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dopamine is a neurotransmitter, which is essentially a chemical messenger

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in the brain and the body. And dopamine serves a

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whole range of functions in the brain and body. It's

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involved in kidney function, it's involved in regulating our movement,

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a lot of different things. But one of the things

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it's most known for, well, the reason that's being talked

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about so much, is because it has a critical role

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to play in the experience of pleasure, that short term

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gratification that we get when something is quite pleasurable. So

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dopamine is activated when we experience pleasure, but it also

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is involved in motivating us to seek out that pleasure

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again and again.

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This is the key, right.

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We call it kind of the pleasure chemical or the

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reward chemical, But it's actually a motivational drug more than anything,

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isn't it Like, it's what motivates compels us to do something. Again, Yes,

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when we recognize that that is pleasurable.

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Yes, absolutely, So we know that dopamine is sort of

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activated and firing not only when we experience that pleasure,

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but in the pursuit of the pleasure. And so that's

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why it plays such a critical and key role in

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the development of addictions. And I guess from kind of

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a prehistoric perspective, pleasure was important because it existed for

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the survival of the species. So to be able to

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kind of eat required us to hunt and forage for food,

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and that was effortful and hard, and so there was

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that dopamine activation when you know, they ate the food

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that they found as a reward, but also to seek

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to seek out doing that and again and again. Same

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with sex and procreation is activated to ensure the survival

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of species. But nowadays we get that dopamine activation much

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quicker and much easier because technology has made things much easier.

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I can have uber ets down at my doorstep in

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under thirty minutes.

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Yes, yes, so easy.

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So many ways to get a little hit of dopamine

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all day, every day, don't we all know it? So

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on that what are some of the most common ways,

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the most common behaviors. I guess that in our modern

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world that people are engaging in that's giving him, giving

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them that dopamine surge.

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So substances like alcohol, drugs, even kind of sugary, good

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tasting food can activate dopamine. But from a more kind

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of technological or behavioral standpoint, things like online shopping, social media,

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dating apps, gambling and online gambling, pornography, all these things

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can can activate those dopamine reward pathways.

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And like you said, we don't have to go very

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far to get them, Like it's all in our pocket now,

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Like it's all just on our phone. That's the scary thing,

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Like it's right there. So when you have that dope

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mein hit and you feel compelled to do that thing again,

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which is what dopamine compels you to do, you don't

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have to go far. There's no barrier, Like it's a

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very low barrier. That's the problem.

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Right, Yes, yes, absolutely, we don't have to work hard

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for that dopamine release anymore. It just is it comes

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so much more quickly and more easily.

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So therefore, I guess the problem is you've just defined

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it like we begin kind of spending too much time

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doing these behaviors which feel good in the short term,

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but you know, like, what's the problem basically like that

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potentially or what just wasting our time?

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Well, I guess the problem comes when we do something

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in excess and it becomes too automatic. So often people

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are kind of asking me, like, what do we do

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about this whole dopamine thing? And if it's you know,

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creating these addictions, you know, is it bad? DO'TE mean

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in and of itself and the experience of pleasure? They're

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they're not bad things or things to us for us

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to kind of run away from. But it's about monitoring

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it so that we don't get to a point where

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we're engaging in some sort of activity or behavior to

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the point where it happens in excess and it has

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some sort of negative impact on our life.

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Yeah, I know that.

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In your book you talk about this which I hadn't

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heard a lot of, but you talk about there's been

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this trend towards dopamine detoxing. And I know that I'm

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not a massive fan of Andrew Huberman and he's human lab.

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I find it the most dry content ever. But he

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is all about managing dopamine, Like it's all about how

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you control your life to minimize these dopamine spikes.

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Throughout your day.

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And you talk about like this dopamine detoxing idea, So

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can we just dismantle that straight up front as well?

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Yes, my approach to most things is probably just quite

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quite moderate, And I sort of say to people, if

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you're looking for this like clear fix it answer in

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the book, you're probably not going to get that. It's

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going to be a more sort of moderate approach to things.

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But this dopamine detox is kind of fascinating in the

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way in the ways that things go viral through social media.

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So the kind of dopamine detox term, I think was

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coined with different intentions, but what ended up happening is

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that it was picked up on social media. It went

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through Silicon Valley, and all of a sudden you had

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these big execs doing these twenty four hour detoxes trying

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to detox dopamine from their body. I guess which A

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is impossible and B we wouldn't want that. We need

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to survive, and don't mean helps us survive. But it

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was this idea that you would kind of for twenty

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four hours lock yourself away from anything that gave you

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any pleasure and do this almost like the intensive cleanse

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of some sort, which A isn't really realistic, but B

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isn't actually going to lead to any sort of long term, effective,

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meaningful change. For us, twenty four hours is enough to

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really achieve anything other than to feel some discomfort and

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then get through the other end of it.

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Yeah.

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Right, So dopamine detox if that's if that's something that

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you've heard and you think that's what you should be doing,

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then no, the answer is no.

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Anything so like intense for such a short period of

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time is usually not something that's going to lead to

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longer term sustainable change.

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And so the key, like you said, is it's about like,

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it's not about feeling good. Is not bad. We you

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know life, We need some pleasure in life.

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And I actually I obviously have written a book as

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well called Crappy to Happy, because that's how original I am.

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And I say upfront that there is this balance between

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well we call pleasure hedonic kind of happiness, which is

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this sensory pleasures and the nice things in life, which

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I guess you would say is associated with dopamine and

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unimonic pleasure, which is more associated with meaning and too

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much of one or the other is you know, things

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get out of balance and is not good for you.

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And I love that you talked about this in your

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book too, because this is the point, right, It's not

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about having no pleasure. It's about finding some kind of

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balance with a different kind of happiness for one of

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a better word.

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Yes, absolutely, it's finding the balance we need both in

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life for life to feel sustainable and enjoyable. We need

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that sort of more kind of hedonic pleasure that we

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get in hedonic happiness, but also the youmonic, meaningful kind

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of pursuits that give us that broader sense of contentment

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and satisfaction in life.

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Yeah.

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So if somebody knows that this is out of balance,

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then how do they start with tipping it back in

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the other direction. I mean there's a I could ask

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you straight up front about, like, Okay, so you're spending

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too much time on your phone or you know that

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you're drinking too much wine, or you're running up your

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credit card, and all of those things aren't good for you, Like,

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how do we stop doing that? But I think the

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key is in this right, it's in this this middle part,

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which is like how do you find a better balance?

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First of all, So how do we start to move

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a little bit more towards the meaning purpose kind of

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pleasure as opposed to just this quick hit of dopamine pleasure.

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Yeah. Absolutely, it's all in the balance. So I do

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recommend that people take a break from whatever that behavior, activity,

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or substance is that they feel like they've got an

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unhealthy relationship with. But you know, I've worked in a

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kind of the addiction field for a while, and we

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often see that if we just sort of encourage someone to,

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you know, stop, that that kind of only lasts for

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so long if they don't have something meaningful to kind

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of put in place of it. And so that's why

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in the book, I have quite a focus on sort

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of identifying values and living life in alignment with those values,

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because that's what's going to help sustain us to make

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that change for ourselves so that we're not just scrolling

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Instagram and TikTok mindlessly, or swiping on dating apps mindlessly,

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whatever that thing might be for someone, But we can

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actually replace that time and energy with things that are

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more meaningful for us.

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Yeah, so where does somebody start with that? You just

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mentioned values for somebody listening going okay, yeah, I need

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to do that. How do I go about figuring out

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what my values are? What's more important to me?

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Yes? We your psychologists love talking about values. O.

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We love we love love love.

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Ways.

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Yeah, but the thing is we talk about it all

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the time, but most people never stop to really think

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about it. That's the interesting thing, right, Like we could

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blah blah blah about it, but actually asked somebody when

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was the last time you said it?

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And I really thought about your values? But most people, unless.

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I've done some corporate workshop, you know, the boss has

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sent them on some leadership riture, Like, most people don't

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actually spend the time to reflect on this.

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It's so true. It's so true. Often people will have

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a good idea and understanding of what the you know,

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what the concept of values is, and maybe have a

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few very clear but sort of easy to access values

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front of mind, but haven't necessarily sat down and thought

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about the kind of broader picture of values and what

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other values that they may have. I mean, I take

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the readers through a bit of a process in the

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book of firstly trying to generate a bit of a

250
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list for themselves as to what comes to mind when

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they think about what those values are for themselves, and

252
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from then on to sort of, you know, go through

253
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some exercises imagining yourself at a later point in life

254
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and reflecting on how you would have liked to live,

255
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you know, the person you would have liked to be

256
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throughout your life, et cetera. And then finally looking through

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a relatively lengthy values list to see if can come

258
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up with some more sort of nuanced values that weren't

259
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coming to the front of mind in the previous exercises,

260
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to ensure that there's sort of like that variety in

261
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the way that they're living out their life in accordance

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with values. And then finally, it's a kind of notion

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of reflecting on, Okay, now that I know what my

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values are, I have a clearer picture of them. It's

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one thing to know and another thing to live life

266
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in alignment with those values. So what kind of adjustments

267
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do I now need to make is that last part?

268
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Yeah, And when you put a values list in front

269
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of somebody, how often do they say, ah, all of them?

270
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Yes, absolutely, that's our experience.

271
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Oh I thought I was struggling to come up with three,

272
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but now I've got fifteen.

273
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Yes. Absolutely. It's more often the case I find with

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people that once we do present those kind of bigger

275
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values lists than like, okay, let's just narrow it down

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to a few for now we can kind of with

277
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and then see if we can add some more and

278
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later on.

279
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So how do you help somebody?

280
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That's a really interesting question, Like if somebody's in front

281
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of you and they've got because you know, yeah, family,

282
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and I mean I could rattle off a whole bunch

283
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of them right now, But how do you help somebody

284
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to narrow that down? I'm thinking at the moment as

285
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we're talking about Brene Brown, I remember years ago looking

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at something that she said or something that she wrote,

287
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and she was really intent on people having two like

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you've got to have two kind of core values that

289
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guide your life, like they you're like they're the lighthouse

290
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that sustains you through good times and bad times, like

291
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two things. But I remember thinking, wow, that's hardcore just too.

292
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You're not saying that people should necessarily just have two,

293
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but you are saying that we kind of need to

294
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get clear on what's the tip of the iceberg.

295
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So how do you help somebody narrow that down?

296
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Yeah, it's a good question, I think in the in

297
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the process, I guess for some people, say say, if

298
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we go with the value of family, and that's a

299
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really common one for people, it might be that people

300
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are very easily kind of living this value out in life.

301
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They are feeling quite committed to family, they're engaged with

302
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family in a number of different ways, and so I

303
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think there are some values that are really important to

304
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be aware of but kind of naturally get played out

305
00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:23.480
in life more than others. So if that's happening, I

306
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kind of think, well, if that's working and it feels

307
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like it's working, well, great, keep doing that. Let's look

308
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at another value that might feel some kind of need

309
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that isn't as easy to access in everyday life. So

310
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something like adventure or something like creativity. And I use

311
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the example of creativity in the book with one of

312
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the clients I worked with, where he was really creative,

313
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but nothing kind of in his life naturally accommodated that

314
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he didn't have, like a job that allowed for creativity,

315
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lived a very structured and routine kind of life, and

316
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so we had to work a bit harder to integrate

317
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that value into his life.

318
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Yeah, that's the key.

319
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And even when you say adventure, like, there'll be people

320
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listening who resonate with that and they're like, well, where

321
00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:10.000
do I How do I do that?

322
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Like I've got a job and kids and mortgage and

323
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YadA YadA.

324
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Yeah, So it is actually getting a bit creative, isn't

325
00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:19.480
it about finding ways to integrate that in your life

326
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so that you are living more in alignment with what

327
00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:25.920
you've identified is important to you to give your life

328
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some sense of fulfillment, meaning joy, fine and richness.

329
00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:33.079
Right, I think, yes, something not to disagree with the

330
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wonders of Brene Brown. I love that, but I think,

331
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you know, there's something to be said for maybe going

332
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beyond those kind of those two to have that sort

333
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of richness and the fulfillment that comes with a richness

334
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of living in accordance to a number of values in life.

335
00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:53.640
Yeah, and so even as we're talking about this now,

336
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it becomes really clear that Okay. Yeah, So if I've

337
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got this life where there are these things that are

338
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really important to me that make my life feel rich

339
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and fulfilling, then I'm probably possibly going to be less

340
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likely to want to waste my time on quick hits

341
00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:17.559
of dopamine, like scrolling for four hours or binging Netflix,

342
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because there's something else that's more important. Is that what

343
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we're aiming for.

344
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Here, Yes, a bit of a two pronged approach. So yes,

345
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if I feel like life is fulfilled, then maybe there's

346
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less of a desire for me to be pulled away

347
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from it. And at the same time, the way a

348
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lot of these technologies are designed, we could have the

349
00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:40.039
most fulfilling life, it's still going to pull us. Yeah.

350
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So I think it's also that when we try and

351
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make a change and either stop or reduce one of

352
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those behaviors, that we're not just kind of substituting that

353
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time and energy with some form of distruction for the

354
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sake of distraction or for the sake of not going

355
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on my phone, but rather we fill it with activities

356
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that are aligned those values, so that when I do

357
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something else instead of online shopping or gambling or whatever,

358
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it may be that I'm doing something that still values aligned,

359
00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:11.960
because that's going to make that change more sustainable for me.

360
00:19:12.759 --> 00:19:15.279
Yeah, I'm a returner.

361
00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:18.480
I'm gonna buy it online, have a delivered, try it on,

362
00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:21.720
send it back like I might keep. I get, I

363
00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:23.599
get all that dopamine hit of the shopping, and then

364
00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:26.119
I go, I didn't. I'm gonna keep some. I'll always

365
00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:29.319
keep some. But done it for as long as I

366
00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:30.799
can remember. I was thinking back to when I was

367
00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:32.559
a teenager. I used to do it, take it back

368
00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:35.839
to Target. I remember, I'm so off topic here, but

369
00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:39.119
you just remind me. I remember bringing home this bag

370
00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:41.400
of stuff from Target and my boyfriend saying, oh great,

371
00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:45.279
another bag of stuff to return tomorrow, like, and I

372
00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:47.200
was like, oh, yeah, I actually do do that a lot,

373
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don't I.

374
00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:51.440
But there's something to be said with the online shopping,

375
00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:54.920
right because one of the things that I guess drives

376
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that that sort of dopamine and makes things rewarding is

377
00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:01.920
the element of kind of ex and surprise. And so

378
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:04.759
there's something about online shopping where it's like, I don't

379
00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:06.359
know which one's going to be good, but one of

380
00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:08.240
them might hear and how exciting is that? And I

381
00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:10.759
know there's some sort of reward that's going to come,

382
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:13.519
because I've online shopped before and it's been a good experience.

383
00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:17.000
Same thing with dating apps, with social media, with gambling.

384
00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:20.319
It's like it's that intermittent reinforcement schedule in a way,

385
00:20:20.359 --> 00:20:23.240
like I know a reward is coming, I don't know when,

386
00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:25.559
I don't know what it will be, but it will

387
00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:26.960
be there in some form.

388
00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:29.839
That is such a great point when you talk about

389
00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:32.440
and you reminded me when you just said about the

390
00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:35.119
way these social media apps or the way these apps

391
00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:38.279
are they're designed to be addictive. I actually think it's

392
00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:42.319
worth just circling back to that because I was going

393
00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:44.559
to ask you of all of the things we can

394
00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:48.119
say phone right broadly speaking, But for some people it's

395
00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:49.759
going to be social media, like you said, some people

396
00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:54.839
it's going to be gaming, gambling, pornography. Different people have

397
00:20:54.920 --> 00:20:57.359
different kind of vices, different things that they go to,

398
00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:00.680
And I was going to ask you so so we know,

399
00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:03.000
for example, with the social media apps, that as soon

400
00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:06.000
as they added like, as soon as those software engineers

401
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:09.160
in Silicon Valley added the like button, for example, and

402
00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:14.400
they started tapping into people's need for approval, validation. You know,

403
00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:18.319
there's all of that social connection. So is it important

404
00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:21.519
when we're thinking about how we break some of these

405
00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:25.319
habits if we find ourselves compulsively doing the thing to

406
00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:28.960
be considering what intrinsic need do I have? That is

407
00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:32.920
being kind of I'm getting the illusion of it being

408
00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:37.519
met by this particular behavior or this app is that

409
00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:40.319
important to kind of drill into, like gaming, for example,

410
00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:44.480
connection there right social media, there's this illusion of connection,

411
00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:46.640
but there's also the validation how many likes did I get?

412
00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:49.480
Is that important to understand?

413
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:52.880
I think it certainly can be for people, you know,

414
00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:56.319
if they do want to reassess their relationship with social

415
00:21:56.359 --> 00:21:59.799
media or video games or whatever that behavior is, it

416
00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:02.799
is important to kind of think about, you know, is

417
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:06.000
how is this actually serving me? Is it serving me?

418
00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:09.039
And how so? Whether that be it's some sort of

419
00:22:09.079 --> 00:22:11.240
form of escape from real life, or there's some sort

420
00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:14.440
of validation that comes through it. And on top of that,

421
00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:17.640
maybe in some cases there isn't really some sort of

422
00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:21.359
function it's serving, but there just still is that maybe

423
00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:25.519
even unconscious kind of desire based on sort of neurochemistry

424
00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:28.799
to keep going back to it because it is activating

425
00:22:28.839 --> 00:22:30.880
those those dopamine pathways.

426
00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:35.000
Yeah, sometimes it is just just the basic nualogy of

427
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:38.200
that constant reinforcement of the dopamine and like you said,

428
00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:41.400
that intermittent reinforcement, never knowing when you're going to get rewarded.

429
00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:46.160
Yes, absolutely, And you know, we see the change with

430
00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:49.319
social media, right So there's so many different things that

431
00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:52.279
you can get notifications for nowadays. And it's not just

432
00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:55.480
sort of likes, but there's I mean, I use linked

433
00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:57.200
in a lot, and there's like the like, and then

434
00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:00.759
there's the clap, and then there's the care and oh

435
00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:04.240
my god, different all these different ways that you can react.

436
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:09.039
And you know, even Facebook back in the day probably

437
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:11.440
remember that you got to the end of the home

438
00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:13.880
feed and then there was the button that said click

439
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:15.759
this button to see more. So you click the button

440
00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:18.200
and keep scrolling. But now we've got the infinite scroll,

441
00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:21.799
because that's a way of pulling people out of that

442
00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:24.279
and then going, oh, actually, maybe I won't keep scrolling.

443
00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:26.279
I'll go back to doing my work or whatever I

444
00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:29.039
meant to be doing. So and it's the same with

445
00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:32.799
Netflix and oh yeah, you know streaming platforms you don't

446
00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:35.359
have to even click the button to go the next episode.

447
00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:39.440
It just does it for you, just keep it going. Yeah, yes, yeah,

448
00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:41.720
there's a lot of ways that the platforms know how

449
00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:42.480
to keep us there.

450
00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:43.559
Yeah.

451
00:23:43.759 --> 00:23:47.079
No, I just thought about that because that idea of like, oh,

452
00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:50.160
actually this is meeting this particular I feel like this

453
00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:52.960
needs being met. And then when we're talking about actually

454
00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:54.839
looking at okay, well what are your values and how

455
00:23:54.839 --> 00:23:57.119
do you if that is something that is important to you,

456
00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:00.759
then how like what's a more fulfilling, meaningful way that

457
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:03.119
you could get that need met that does not involve

458
00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:04.799
scrolling on your phone or whatever it is.

459
00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:09.799
Yeah, So if the value is connection with others, it's like,

460
00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:12.960
well maybe social media isn't really quite giving me the

461
00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:15.720
connection that I'm seeking. Maybe there's more meaningful ways for

462
00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:17.160
me to get that fulfilled.

463
00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:17.960
Yeah.

464
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:21.799
Okay, so we've looked at our values, what's more meaningful?

465
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:24.559
So then what basically then I'm like setting out to

466
00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:27.279
create goals or fill my time with something different.

467
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:29.359
We will get to because I know everybody's listening, going

468
00:24:29.480 --> 00:24:30.480
just tell me how I stop.

469
00:24:31.480 --> 00:24:33.599
We will get to how you change the behavior. But

470
00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:35.279
we got to get We've got to go through all

471
00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:38.960
the steps. So then it's about setting goals or setting

472
00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:40.519
your life up in a way that is much more

473
00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:41.839
aligned with those values.

474
00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:45.759
Yes, absolutely so it's it's I guess, having those kind

475
00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:49.119
of bigger picture goals for my life that are aligned

476
00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:53.039
with those values, but then also coming up with I

477
00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:56.400
guess what I would refer to as like micro behaviors

478
00:24:56.440 --> 00:24:59.480
or microactivities that we can do very quickly and easily,

479
00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:02.319
so that when we do decide to take a break

480
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:05.440
from that thing that we don't have a particularly good

481
00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:08.319
relationship with, say it's social media, when we do decide

482
00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:10.880
to take a break from that and we have the

483
00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:14.039
urge to go back to it, because that will very

484
00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:17.440
often come up. Instead of just distracting ourselves for the

485
00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:20.640
sake of you know, not fulfilling that urge, we can

486
00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:23.119
sort of, I guess distract ourselves so with something that's

487
00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:24.759
still really meaningful to us.

488
00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:30.000
Right, So it's kind of having this kind of alternative list, like, oh,

489
00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:33.039
what else might I do? But that's not just a

490
00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:35.519
mind not just a yeah, like you said, not just

491
00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:39.480
to kind of white knuckle my way through this urge exactly,

492
00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:41.759
but that's actually going to be something that's going to

493
00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:43.119
give me some sense of fulfillment.

494
00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:43.680
I like that.

495
00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:46.559
Yes, yes. So if someone's sort of, you know, trying

496
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:49.839
to not do any online gambling anymore, say, but then

497
00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:52.640
they have the urge to go back and play some bets,

498
00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:55.200
It's like, well, what can I do that just not

499
00:25:55.279 --> 00:25:58.559
only distracts me and helps me ride this urge, but

500
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:01.119
actually is aligned with my values. Is it that I

501
00:26:01.279 --> 00:26:03.799
call my mom instead because I value family? Or is

502
00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:05.759
it that I, you know, go for a run because

503
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:08.279
I value health and fitness, or that I play the

504
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:10.599
guitar because I value creativity. It's sort of like what

505
00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:14.640
behaviors can we do that align with those values?

506
00:26:16.039 --> 00:26:19.119
What I love about that is that you can do

507
00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:23.640
the same thing but just with a different mindset. So

508
00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:26.319
like I could just call my mom just to distract me,

509
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:29.319
or I could call my mom but in my mind

510
00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:32.640
recognize and reinforce the idea that I'm calling my mom

511
00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:35.319
because it's actually really important to me to stay connected

512
00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:38.319
to my mom. Like it's I could play the guitar

513
00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:41.359
just to fill the time, or I could actually in

514
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:45.599
my mind make that an intentional choice and kind of

515
00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:50.400
affirm to myself I'm doing this because I value creativity.

516
00:26:50.440 --> 00:26:54.519
It's kind of building a sense of yourself and a

517
00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:59.039
sense of yourself as a person who does things that

518
00:26:59.079 --> 00:27:01.519
are in line with their like a person of integrity.

519
00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:04.160
Like I talk about that sometimes with my clients about

520
00:27:04.279 --> 00:27:07.640
you know, like really recognizing and reinforcing in your own mind,

521
00:27:07.720 --> 00:27:10.279
affirming in your own mind when you do things that

522
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:12.880
are in line with your values and having that build

523
00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:15.720
this sense of yourself as a kind of a quality

524
00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:19.000
person of integrity, you know, who does what they say

525
00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:22.839
is important to them, right, rather than just doing the behavior.

526
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:26.680
Actually how you think about it as you're doing it.

527
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:30.359
It's it's exactly exactly. It's building a sense of sell

528
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:34.319
a sense of I guess identity as well, but living

529
00:27:34.359 --> 00:27:37.759
the life we really truly want to live with the

530
00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:41.319
intention behind it and with that sort of mindset of like, yes,

531
00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:43.720
I'm doing this because it's important to me, and it's

532
00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:46.240
building that sense of self you know that I that

533
00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:47.559
I want and that I want to have.

534
00:27:48.279 --> 00:27:48.839
I love it.

535
00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:51.720
And so then you did touch on it, you know,

536
00:27:51.799 --> 00:27:53.799
you basically said, you know, when I'm gone, when I'm

537
00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:56.599
tempted to do that thing, what else can I do?

538
00:27:56.680 --> 00:27:57.119
Instead?

539
00:27:57.200 --> 00:27:57.279
So?

540
00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:59.079
What other? This is what everybody wants.

541
00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:00.880
To know like, what other things can we do if

542
00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:02.240
we know that there is something that.

543
00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:04.200
Is really compulsive, Like we're just.

544
00:28:04.519 --> 00:28:06.200
It's become a bit of an addiction, and we didn't

545
00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:09.519
even kind of talk about the definition of addiction, and

546
00:28:09.559 --> 00:28:12.000
we're Probably the important thing to say is if it

547
00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:15.240
is something that is physically addictive, like if you literally

548
00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:18.200
are drinking too much or using drugs and it's potentially

549
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:21.720
got consequences for going cold turkey, then that's a whole

550
00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:24.160
different ballgame. But we're talking about these kind of behaviors

551
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:27.799
that don't aren't inherently physically addictive. But if I'm doing

552
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:30.000
something compulsively, I know it's bad for me. I know

553
00:28:30.039 --> 00:28:31.920
that I want to do it less. What are some

554
00:28:31.960 --> 00:28:33.599
other strategies that people can use.

555
00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:40.680
Yeah, so when the experience of replacing that behavior with

556
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:43.359
sort of more values driven behaviors, if that doesn't feel enough,

557
00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:45.400
if we've got like a really strong urge or craving

558
00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:48.559
for something that we want to go back to, then

559
00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:51.799
I do offer some recommendations for sort of more I

560
00:28:51.799 --> 00:28:56.279
guess distress tolerance strategies. A lot of the therapy work

561
00:28:56.279 --> 00:28:59.759
I do is DBT dialectical behavior therapy, and so in

562
00:28:59.799 --> 00:29:02.440
that we have a whole range of sort of strategies

563
00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:05.440
that are designed to be quite sensory to help people

564
00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:08.039
when they're at the peak of that urge and they

565
00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:11.480
don't feel like they can quite write it through. So

566
00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:15.440
these might be things like engaging in some self soothing

567
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:18.319
so on a sensory level, how do I help kind

568
00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:22.279
of regulate myself? What are my sensory preferences? Everyone usually

569
00:29:22.279 --> 00:29:26.680
has sensory preferences. Mine is touched. I like weight I

570
00:29:26.839 --> 00:29:28.880
like you know, weighted blankets and things that, you know,

571
00:29:28.920 --> 00:29:30.920
putting on a jumper if I don't feel good even

572
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:33.400
if it's hot. So for other people it might be

573
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:37.480
smells and sense or kind of music and sounds. So

574
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:40.519
we can go kind of down that self soothing pathway.

575
00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:44.720
Then there's also a pathway where we can engage in

576
00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:47.799
the senses in a way that's much more intense and

577
00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:52.480
I guess somewhat shocking. So this idea that cold water

578
00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:56.160
is very effective if anyone is ever kind of having

579
00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:58.759
a moment that they feel like they can't get through,

580
00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:01.680
whether that's kind of an urge or a craving or

581
00:30:01.720 --> 00:30:04.039
just an emotional moment that they feel like they can't

582
00:30:04.039 --> 00:30:07.319
get through. Jump in a cold shower. That's my number

583
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:10.200
one recommendation. Jump in a cold shower and then tell

584
00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:11.319
me how you feel after.

585
00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:16.119
Oh my god, if you're already feeling crappy, getting.

586
00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:17.480
A cold shower and feel worse.

587
00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:25.279
Because physiologically it can help regulate us or you know,

588
00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:29.359
blood pressure, heart rate. It doesn't solve any problems, right,

589
00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:31.039
It's not like we're going to come out the other

590
00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:32.880
end of that cold shower and feel like we've got

591
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:36.759
the solutions. Absolutely not. But it just helps bring that

592
00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:40.400
level of distress or the urge or the craving kind

593
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:43.720
of down to a level where the prefrontal cortex can

594
00:30:43.799 --> 00:30:46.119
kind of click back into place and help us problem

595
00:30:46.200 --> 00:30:49.200
solve through it. But we're just sort of stepping out

596
00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:53.279
of that real emotion, kind of raw emotion driven mind.

597
00:30:54.119 --> 00:30:55.000
Yeah. I love that.

598
00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:58.160
I mean, I'm not going to do it, but I

599
00:30:58.200 --> 00:30:58.880
maybe I will.

600
00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:03.440
Maybe one day I will dry it. I have a hard.

601
00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:06.200
Enough time just like turning the tap to cold at

602
00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:08.880
the end of a hot shower, like let alone just

603
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:13.480
fully jumping into cold one. But I know people love that.

604
00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:17.960
I know people who swear by the cold water. Yes, okay,

605
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:20.440
now you just reminded me again, and I stays of

606
00:31:21.079 --> 00:31:23.559
So when we're talking about other ways to feel good

607
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:27.000
besides this dopamine, you know, unproductive kind of ways that

608
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:32.200
we can feel good, you talk about music, connection, and movement.

609
00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:34.839
Just give me the summary of why those three things

610
00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:35.480
are important.

611
00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:40.160
Yeah, So dopamine is not the only neurotransmitter in the

612
00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:42.640
brain that helps us sort of feel good in some way.

613
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:46.839
We know about you know, oxytocin, serotonin and lots of

614
00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:49.400
things happening in the brain and all sorts of combinations.

615
00:31:50.119 --> 00:31:55.240
So the three kind of healthy, natural ways to get

616
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:59.119
that experience of sort of happiness, but also kind of

617
00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:03.839
comfort and pleasure, movements, social connection, and music. As we

618
00:32:03.880 --> 00:32:06.480
said i'd be in writing the book, I was speaking

619
00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:09.680
with her professor in the US about music and she

620
00:32:09.720 --> 00:32:12.279
gave me this lovely quote around like, as far as

621
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:17.359
we know, you can't become addicted to music. So it

622
00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:20.240
sort of activates dopamine, but some of those other sort

623
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:24.200
of hormones and neurotransmitters in the brain, it can really

624
00:32:24.279 --> 00:32:26.759
kind of help us regulate our mood and feel good.

625
00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:29.359
And then if you think about doing that in combination

626
00:32:29.559 --> 00:32:33.279
with movements and even kind of social connection. So think

627
00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:36.119
going out dancing with friends, or a zumba class or

628
00:32:36.119 --> 00:32:39.279
something that kind of incorporates the three that can be

629
00:32:39.319 --> 00:32:42.359
incredibly effective for helping us with our mood.

630
00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:46.359
Yeah, I love that. I think that's keeping an in

631
00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:50.559
mind those three things. I'm thinking even listening to music

632
00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:53.279
as you go for a walk or go for a run,

633
00:32:53.799 --> 00:32:56.400
and if you join a friend, then add that to

634
00:32:56.440 --> 00:32:58.319
the mix as well. But obviously you don't have to

635
00:32:58.359 --> 00:33:01.599
have all three together, but any combination of them or

636
00:33:01.640 --> 00:33:04.359
any one of them is going to be helpful.

637
00:33:04.759 --> 00:33:07.319
Yes, absolutely, going with a friend to see like a

638
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:10.720
live music concert for example. You know, there's lots of

639
00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:13.160
ways that we can We might not necessarily get all three,

640
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:15.000
but we can incorporate at least two of them.

641
00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:16.680
Yeah, I love it. I love it.

642
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:19.640
The book is called The Dopamine Brain. It is now available.

643
00:33:19.640 --> 00:33:23.240
And Anastasia, how can people find you if they're interested

644
00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:24.440
in the work that you do?

645
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:30.359
Yes, So I'm I'm on all the socials. I love

646
00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:33.440
LinkedIn a big LinkedIn user. Feel free to connect with

647
00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:37.160
me on Instagram. You know, I may have dabbled in

648
00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:44.039
a TikTok video or two, but yeah, I'm pretty easy

649
00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:48.559
to find online. But it's always welcome feedback from people

650
00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:51.799
if they read the book and they found it's been useful,

651
00:33:51.880 --> 00:33:54.400
or they have suggestions for how they might implement some

652
00:33:54.440 --> 00:33:58.559
of these strategies in their life. So open to receiving

653
00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:02.599
emails and messages from people about it amazing.

654
00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:05.480
I'll put your contact details down in the your social

655
00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:07.720
handles down in the show notes so people can go

656
00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:10.679
and find them. It has been such a pleasure catching

657
00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:14.320
up with you again. Thank you so much and congratulations.

658
00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:17.199
Oh thank you. Thanks for having me. It's been great.

659
00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:20.599
If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend,

660
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:23.880
think about leaving a five star rating and review, and

661
00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:26.280
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662
00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:29.280
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663
00:34:29.320 --> 00:34:33.239
cast Done, Underscore XO or Crapy A Happy Pod. Please

664
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:37.119
send ideas for future episodes to my website cast Done

665
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:40.840
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666
00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:43.159
and loving them. Thank you so much for being here,

667
00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:45.400
and as always, I cannot wait to catch you next

668
00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:59.519
week for another episode of Crapy a Happy