Your Brain on Dopamine with Dr Anastasia Hronis

0:04 This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Cas Done. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist. I'm mindfulness meditation teacher and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field and who have something of value to share that will help you feel less crappy and more happy. Most of us have at some point felt like we were lacking control over certain habits. So what if you could understand how the brain works and use that knowledge to regain control over those habits and start leading a more fulfilling life. Whether it is shopping, scrolling, eating, drinking drugs or gambling. All of these behaviors and more can trigger a release of dopamine, which is a neurotransmitter in your brain that is involved in the brain's reward system. Now, when those dopamine levels get disrupted, we can find it really hard to break those habits, and those habits probably do not align with your core values well Thankfully. Doctor Anastasia heronas a clinical psychologist and founder of the Australian Institute for Human Wellness, has recently published a book called the dopamine Brain, which offers a very clear and practical way to help you break those habits and find more

1:35 balance and. Meaning in your life. Anastasia heronas Welcome to Crappy to Happy Hello, thank you for having me. We were just having a little chitchat about how we met years ago in a Facebook group for was. It called Sachs Online. It was basically. Psychologists who were doing like non mainstream kind of working in the media, working online, and it was this little color of psychs who were doing stuff out of the box. And so that's where we met years ago. Yes, it's always nice to consider the other ways we can work as psychologists as well and have some sort of reach. Yeah, exactly. And so now here we are, all these years later with you promoting your book on my podcast.

2:19 So there you go. There you go. Now speaking of the book and as days, that is why we were here. Dopamine it is such a hot topic. I was so excited to see that you published this book because I've had on my list for ages for potential podcast guests, somebody to talk about dopamine, because everybody's kind of really into it and whether it's good for you or bad for you, and it's role in ADHD and all sorts of things. So I'm super excited to have this conversation. But from the get go, what is dopamine and what is the role that it plays in our neurology? I guess because I think there's a misconception about that.

3:02 Yes, absolutely, I love that dopamine, of all things, has become a hot topic. And who would have thought, But here we are, so dopamine. Yes, let's bust some of the myths and kind of talk about what it is. So, dopamine is a neurotransmitter, which is essentially a chemical messenger in the brain and the body. And dopamine serves a whole range of functions in the brain and body. It's involved in kidney function, it's involved in regulating our movement, a lot of different things. But one of the things it's most known for, well, the reason that's being talked about so much, is because it has a critical role to play in the experience of pleasure, that short term gratification that we get when something is quite pleasurable. So dopamine is activated when we experience pleasure, but it also is involved in motivating us to seek out that pleasure again and again.

3:58 This is the key, right. We call it kind of the pleasure chemical or the reward chemical, But it's actually a motivational drug more than anything, isn't it Like, it's what motivates compels us to do something. Again, Yes, when we recognize that that is pleasurable. Yes, absolutely, So we know that dopamine is sort of activated and firing not only when we experience that pleasure, but in the pursuit of the pleasure. And so that's why it plays such a critical and key role in the development of addictions. And I guess from kind of a prehistoric perspective, pleasure was important because it existed for the survival of the species. So to be able to kind of eat required us to hunt and forage for food, and that was effortful and hard, and so there was that dopamine activation when you know, they ate the food that they found as a reward, but also to seek to seek out doing that and again and again. Same with sex and procreation is activated to ensure the survival of species. But nowadays we get that dopamine activation much quicker and much easier because technology has made things much easier.

5:12 I can have uber ets down at my doorstep in under thirty minutes. Yes, yes, so easy. So many ways to get a little hit of dopamine all day, every day, don't we all know it? So on that what are some of the most common ways, the most common behaviors. I guess that in our modern world that people are engaging in that's giving him, giving them that dopamine surge. So substances like alcohol, drugs, even kind of sugary, good tasting food can activate dopamine. But from a more kind of technological or behavioral standpoint, things like online shopping, social media, dating apps, gambling and online gambling, pornography, all these things can can activate those dopamine reward pathways.

6:11 And like you said, we don't have to go very far to get them, Like it's all in our pocket now, Like it's all just on our phone. That's the scary thing, Like it's right there. So when you have that dope mein hit and you feel compelled to do that thing again, which is what dopamine compels you to do, you don't have to go far. There's no barrier, Like it's a very low barrier. That's the problem. Right, Yes, yes, absolutely, we don't have to work hard for that dopamine release anymore. It just is it comes so much more quickly and more easily. So therefore, I guess the problem is you've just defined it like we begin kind of spending too much time doing these behaviors which feel good in the short term, but you know, like, what's the problem basically like that potentially or what just wasting our time?

7:00 Well, I guess the problem comes when we do something in excess and it becomes too automatic. So often people are kind of asking me, like, what do we do about this whole dopamine thing? And if it's you know, creating these addictions, you know, is it bad? DO'TE mean in and of itself and the experience of pleasure? They're they're not bad things or things to us for us to kind of run away from. But it's about monitoring it so that we don't get to a point where we're engaging in some sort of activity or behavior to the point where it happens in excess and it has some sort of negative impact on our life. Yeah, I know that. In your book you talk about this which I hadn't heard a lot of, but you talk about there's been this trend towards dopamine detoxing. And I know that I'm not a massive fan of Andrew Huberman and he's human lab.

7:48 I find it the most dry content ever. But he is all about managing dopamine, Like it's all about how you control your life to minimize these dopamine spikes. Throughout your day. And you talk about like this dopamine detoxing idea, So can we just dismantle that straight up front as well? Yes, my approach to most things is probably just quite quite moderate, And I sort of say to people, if you're looking for this like clear fix it answer in the book, you're probably not going to get that. It's going to be a more sort of moderate approach to things. But this dopamine detox is kind of fascinating in the way in the ways that things go viral through social media.

8:32 So the kind of dopamine detox term, I think was coined with different intentions, but what ended up happening is that it was picked up on social media. It went through Silicon Valley, and all of a sudden you had these big execs doing these twenty four hour detoxes trying to detox dopamine from their body. I guess which A is impossible and B we wouldn't want that. We need to survive, and don't mean helps us survive. But it was this idea that you would kind of for twenty four hours lock yourself away from anything that gave you any pleasure and do this almost like the intensive cleanse of some sort, which A isn't really realistic, but B isn't actually going to lead to any sort of long term, effective, meaningful change. For us, twenty four hours is enough to really achieve anything other than to feel some discomfort and then get through the other end of it.

9:24 Yeah. Right, So dopamine detox if that's if that's something that you've heard and you think that's what you should be doing, then no, the answer is no. Anything so like intense for such a short period of time is usually not something that's going to lead to longer term sustainable change. And so the key, like you said, is it's about like, it's not about feeling good. Is not bad. We you know life, We need some pleasure in life. And I actually I obviously have written a book as well called Crappy to Happy, because that's how original I am. And I say upfront that there is this balance between well we call pleasure hedonic kind of happiness, which is this sensory pleasures and the nice things in life, which I guess you would say is associated with dopamine and unimonic pleasure, which is more associated with meaning and too much of one or the other is you know, things get out of balance and is not good for you.

10:18 And I love that you talked about this in your book too, because this is the point, right, It's not about having no pleasure. It's about finding some kind of balance with a different kind of happiness for one of a better word. Yes, absolutely, it's finding the balance we need both in life for life to feel sustainable and enjoyable. We need that sort of more kind of hedonic pleasure that we get in hedonic happiness, but also the youmonic, meaningful kind of pursuits that give us that broader sense of contentment and satisfaction in life. Yeah. So if somebody knows that this is out of balance, then how do they start with tipping it back in the other direction. I mean there's a I could ask you straight up front about, like, Okay, so you're spending too much time on your phone or you know that you're drinking too much wine, or you're running up your credit card, and all of those things aren't good for you, Like, how do we stop doing that? But I think the key is in this right, it's in this this middle part, which is like how do you find a better balance?

11:17 First of all, So how do we start to move a little bit more towards the meaning purpose kind of pleasure as opposed to just this quick hit of dopamine pleasure. Yeah. Absolutely, it's all in the balance. So I do recommend that people take a break from whatever that behavior, activity, or substance is that they feel like they've got an unhealthy relationship with. But you know, I've worked in a kind of the addiction field for a while, and we often see that if we just sort of encourage someone to, you know, stop, that that kind of only lasts for so long if they don't have something meaningful to kind of put in place of it. And so that's why in the book, I have quite a focus on sort of identifying values and living life in alignment with those values, because that's what's going to help sustain us to make that change for ourselves so that we're not just scrolling Instagram and TikTok mindlessly, or swiping on dating apps mindlessly, whatever that thing might be for someone, But we can actually replace that time and energy with things that are more meaningful for us.

12:24 Yeah, so where does somebody start with that? You just mentioned values for somebody listening going okay, yeah, I need to do that. How do I go about figuring out what my values are? What's more important to me? Yes? We your psychologists love talking about values. O. We love we love love love. Ways. Yeah, but the thing is we talk about it all the time, but most people never stop to really think about it. That's the interesting thing, right, Like we could blah blah blah about it, but actually asked somebody when was the last time you said it? And I really thought about your values? But most people, unless. I've done some corporate workshop, you know, the boss has sent them on some leadership riture, Like, most people don't actually spend the time to reflect on this.

13:04 It's so true. It's so true. Often people will have a good idea and understanding of what the you know, what the concept of values is, and maybe have a few very clear but sort of easy to access values front of mind, but haven't necessarily sat down and thought about the kind of broader picture of values and what other values that they may have. I mean, I take the readers through a bit of a process in the book of firstly trying to generate a bit of a list for themselves as to what comes to mind when they think about what those values are for themselves, and from then on to sort of, you know, go through some exercises imagining yourself at a later point in life and reflecting on how you would have liked to live, you know, the person you would have liked to be throughout your life, et cetera. And then finally looking through a relatively lengthy values list to see if can come up with some more sort of nuanced values that weren't coming to the front of mind in the previous exercises, to ensure that there's sort of like that variety in the way that they're living out their life in accordance with values. And then finally, it's a kind of notion of reflecting on, Okay, now that I know what my values are, I have a clearer picture of them. It's one thing to know and another thing to live life in alignment with those values. So what kind of adjustments do I now need to make is that last part?

14:30 Yeah, And when you put a values list in front of somebody, how often do they say, ah, all of them? Yes, absolutely, that's our experience. Oh I thought I was struggling to come up with three, but now I've got fifteen. Yes. Absolutely. It's more often the case I find with people that once we do present those kind of bigger values lists than like, okay, let's just narrow it down to a few for now we can kind of with and then see if we can add some more and later on. So how do you help somebody? That's a really interesting question, Like if somebody's in front of you and they've got because you know, yeah, family, and I mean I could rattle off a whole bunch of them right now, But how do you help somebody to narrow that down? I'm thinking at the moment as we're talking about Brene Brown, I remember years ago looking at something that she said or something that she wrote, and she was really intent on people having two like you've got to have two kind of core values that guide your life, like they you're like they're the lighthouse that sustains you through good times and bad times, like two things. But I remember thinking, wow, that's hardcore just too.

15:41 You're not saying that people should necessarily just have two, but you are saying that we kind of need to get clear on what's the tip of the iceberg. So how do you help somebody narrow that down? Yeah, it's a good question, I think in the in the process, I guess for some people, say say, if we go with the value of family, and that's a really common one for people, it might be that people are very easily kind of living this value out in life. They are feeling quite committed to family, they're engaged with family in a number of different ways, and so I think there are some values that are really important to be aware of but kind of naturally get played out in life more than others. So if that's happening, I kind of think, well, if that's working and it feels like it's working, well, great, keep doing that. Let's look at another value that might feel some kind of need that isn't as easy to access in everyday life. So something like adventure or something like creativity. And I use the example of creativity in the book with one of the clients I worked with, where he was really creative, but nothing kind of in his life naturally accommodated that he didn't have, like a job that allowed for creativity, lived a very structured and routine kind of life, and so we had to work a bit harder to integrate that value into his life.

17:02 Yeah, that's the key. And even when you say adventure, like, there'll be people listening who resonate with that and they're like, well, where do I How do I do that? Like I've got a job and kids and mortgage and YadA YadA. Yeah, So it is actually getting a bit creative, isn't it about finding ways to integrate that in your life so that you are living more in alignment with what you've identified is important to you to give your life some sense of fulfillment, meaning joy, fine and richness. Right, I think, yes, something not to disagree with the wonders of Brene Brown. I love that, but I think, you know, there's something to be said for maybe going beyond those kind of those two to have that sort of richness and the fulfillment that comes with a richness of living in accordance to a number of values in life.

17:50 Yeah, and so even as we're talking about this now, it becomes really clear that Okay. Yeah, So if I've got this life where there are these things that are really important to me that make my life feel rich and fulfilling, then I'm probably possibly going to be less likely to want to waste my time on quick hits of dopamine, like scrolling for four hours or binging Netflix, because there's something else that's more important. Is that what we're aiming for. Here, Yes, a bit of a two pronged approach. So yes, if I feel like life is fulfilled, then maybe there's less of a desire for me to be pulled away from it. And at the same time, the way a lot of these technologies are designed, we could have the most fulfilling life, it's still going to pull us. Yeah.

18:40 So I think it's also that when we try and make a change and either stop or reduce one of those behaviors, that we're not just kind of substituting that time and energy with some form of distruction for the sake of distraction or for the sake of not going on my phone, but rather we fill it with activities that are aligned those values, so that when I do something else instead of online shopping or gambling or whatever, it may be that I'm doing something that still values aligned, because that's going to make that change more sustainable for me. Yeah, I'm a returner. I'm gonna buy it online, have a delivered, try it on, send it back like I might keep. I get, I get all that dopamine hit of the shopping, and then I go, I didn't. I'm gonna keep some. I'll always keep some. But done it for as long as I can remember. I was thinking back to when I was a teenager. I used to do it, take it back to Target. I remember, I'm so off topic here, but you just remind me. I remember bringing home this bag of stuff from Target and my boyfriend saying, oh great, another bag of stuff to return tomorrow, like, and I was like, oh, yeah, I actually do do that a lot, don't I.

19:48 But there's something to be said with the online shopping, right because one of the things that I guess drives that that sort of dopamine and makes things rewarding is the element of kind of ex and surprise. And so there's something about online shopping where it's like, I don't know which one's going to be good, but one of them might hear and how exciting is that? And I know there's some sort of reward that's going to come, because I've online shopped before and it's been a good experience. Same thing with dating apps, with social media, with gambling. It's like it's that intermittent reinforcement schedule in a way, like I know a reward is coming, I don't know when, I don't know what it will be, but it will be there in some form. That is such a great point when you talk about and you reminded me when you just said about the way these social media apps or the way these apps are they're designed to be addictive. I actually think it's worth just circling back to that because I was going to ask you of all of the things we can say phone right broadly speaking, But for some people it's going to be social media, like you said, some people it's going to be gaming, gambling, pornography. Different people have different kind of vices, different things that they go to, And I was going to ask you so so we know, for example, with the social media apps, that as soon as they added like, as soon as those software engineers in Silicon Valley added the like button, for example, and they started tapping into people's need for approval, validation. You know, there's all of that social connection. So is it important when we're thinking about how we break some of these

21:21 habits if we find ourselves compulsively doing the thing to be considering what intrinsic need do I have? That is being kind of I'm getting the illusion of it being met by this particular behavior or this app is that important to kind of drill into, like gaming, for example, connection there right social media, there's this illusion of connection, but there's also the validation how many likes did I get? Is that important to understand? I think it certainly can be for people, you know, if they do want to reassess their relationship with social media or video games or whatever that behavior is, it is important to kind of think about, you know, is how is this actually serving me? Is it serving me?

22:06 And how so? Whether that be it's some sort of form of escape from real life, or there's some sort of validation that comes through it. And on top of that, maybe in some cases there isn't really some sort of function it's serving, but there just still is that maybe even unconscious kind of desire based on sort of neurochemistry to keep going back to it because it is activating those those dopamine pathways. Yeah, sometimes it is just just the basic nualogy of that constant reinforcement of the dopamine and like you said, that intermittent reinforcement, never knowing when you're going to get rewarded. Yes, absolutely, And you know, we see the change with social media, right So there's so many different things that you can get notifications for nowadays. And it's not just sort of likes, but there's I mean, I use linked in a lot, and there's like the like, and then there's the clap, and then there's the care and oh my god, different all these different ways that you can react.

23:04 And you know, even Facebook back in the day probably remember that you got to the end of the home feed and then there was the button that said click this button to see more. So you click the button and keep scrolling. But now we've got the infinite scroll, because that's a way of pulling people out of that and then going, oh, actually, maybe I won't keep scrolling. I'll go back to doing my work or whatever I meant to be doing. So and it's the same with Netflix and oh yeah, you know streaming platforms you don't have to even click the button to go the next episode. It just does it for you, just keep it going. Yeah, yes, yeah, there's a lot of ways that the platforms know how to keep us there. Yeah. No, I just thought about that because that idea of like, oh, actually this is meeting this particular I feel like this needs being met. And then when we're talking about actually looking at okay, well what are your values and how do you if that is something that is important to you, then how like what's a more fulfilling, meaningful way that you could get that need met that does not involve scrolling on your phone or whatever it is.

24:05 Yeah, So if the value is connection with others, it's like, well maybe social media isn't really quite giving me the connection that I'm seeking. Maybe there's more meaningful ways for me to get that fulfilled. Yeah. Okay, so we've looked at our values, what's more meaningful? So then what basically then I'm like setting out to create goals or fill my time with something different. We will get to because I know everybody's listening, going just tell me how I stop. We will get to how you change the behavior. But we got to get We've got to go through all the steps. So then it's about setting goals or setting your life up in a way that is much more aligned with those values. Yes, absolutely so it's it's I guess, having those kind of bigger picture goals for my life that are aligned with those values, but then also coming up with I guess what I would refer to as like micro behaviors or microactivities that we can do very quickly and easily, so that when we do decide to take a break from that thing that we don't have a particularly good relationship with, say it's social media, when we do decide to take a break from that and we have the urge to go back to it, because that will very often come up. Instead of just distracting ourselves for the sake of you know, not fulfilling that urge, we can sort of, I guess distract ourselves so with something that's still really meaningful to us.

25:25 Right, So it's kind of having this kind of alternative list, like, oh, what else might I do? But that's not just a mind not just a yeah, like you said, not just to kind of white knuckle my way through this urge exactly, but that's actually going to be something that's going to give me some sense of fulfillment. I like that. Yes, yes. So if someone's sort of, you know, trying to not do any online gambling anymore, say, but then they have the urge to go back and play some bets, It's like, well, what can I do that just not only distracts me and helps me ride this urge, but actually is aligned with my values. Is it that I call my mom instead because I value family? Or is it that I, you know, go for a run because I value health and fitness, or that I play the guitar because I value creativity. It's sort of like what behaviors can we do that align with those values?

26:16 What I love about that is that you can do the same thing but just with a different mindset. So like I could just call my mom just to distract me, or I could call my mom but in my mind recognize and reinforce the idea that I'm calling my mom because it's actually really important to me to stay connected to my mom. Like it's I could play the guitar just to fill the time, or I could actually in my mind make that an intentional choice and kind of affirm to myself I'm doing this because I value creativity. It's kind of building a sense of yourself and a sense of yourself as a person who does things that are in line with their like a person of integrity.

27:01 Like I talk about that sometimes with my clients about you know, like really recognizing and reinforcing in your own mind, affirming in your own mind when you do things that are in line with your values and having that build this sense of yourself as a kind of a quality person of integrity, you know, who does what they say is important to them, right, rather than just doing the behavior. Actually how you think about it as you're doing it. It's it's exactly exactly. It's building a sense of sell a sense of I guess identity as well, but living the life we really truly want to live with the intention behind it and with that sort of mindset of like, yes, I'm doing this because it's important to me, and it's building that sense of self you know that I that I want and that I want to have.

27:48 I love it. And so then you did touch on it, you know, you basically said, you know, when I'm gone, when I'm tempted to do that thing, what else can I do? Instead? So? What other? This is what everybody wants. To know like, what other things can we do if we know that there is something that. Is really compulsive, Like we're just. It's become a bit of an addiction, and we didn't even kind of talk about the definition of addiction, and we're Probably the important thing to say is if it is something that is physically addictive, like if you literally are drinking too much or using drugs and it's potentially got consequences for going cold turkey, then that's a whole different ballgame. But we're talking about these kind of behaviors that don't aren't inherently physically addictive. But if I'm doing something compulsively, I know it's bad for me. I know that I want to do it less. What are some other strategies that people can use.

28:33 Yeah, so when the experience of replacing that behavior with sort of more values driven behaviors, if that doesn't feel enough, if we've got like a really strong urge or craving for something that we want to go back to, then I do offer some recommendations for sort of more I guess distress tolerance strategies. A lot of the therapy work I do is DBT dialectical behavior therapy, and so in that we have a whole range of sort of strategies that are designed to be quite sensory to help people when they're at the peak of that urge and they don't feel like they can quite write it through. So these might be things like engaging in some self soothing so on a sensory level, how do I help kind of regulate myself? What are my sensory preferences? Everyone usually has sensory preferences. Mine is touched. I like weight I like you know, weighted blankets and things that, you know, putting on a jumper if I don't feel good even if it's hot. So for other people it might be smells and sense or kind of music and sounds. So we can go kind of down that self soothing pathway.

29:41 Then there's also a pathway where we can engage in the senses in a way that's much more intense and I guess somewhat shocking. So this idea that cold water is very effective if anyone is ever kind of having a moment that they feel like they can't get through, whether that's kind of an urge or a craving or just an emotional moment that they feel like they can't get through. Jump in a cold shower. That's my number one recommendation. Jump in a cold shower and then tell me how you feel after. Oh my god, if you're already feeling crappy, getting. A cold shower and feel worse.

30:21 Because physiologically it can help regulate us or you know, blood pressure, heart rate. It doesn't solve any problems, right, It's not like we're going to come out the other end of that cold shower and feel like we've got the solutions. Absolutely not. But it just helps bring that level of distress or the urge or the craving kind of down to a level where the prefrontal cortex can kind of click back into place and help us problem solve through it. But we're just sort of stepping out of that real emotion, kind of raw emotion driven mind. Yeah. I love that. I mean, I'm not going to do it, but I maybe I will. Maybe one day I will dry it. I have a hard.

31:03 Enough time just like turning the tap to cold at the end of a hot shower, like let alone just fully jumping into cold one. But I know people love that. I know people who swear by the cold water. Yes, okay, now you just reminded me again, and I stays of So when we're talking about other ways to feel good besides this dopamine, you know, unproductive kind of ways that we can feel good, you talk about music, connection, and movement. Just give me the summary of why those three things are important. Yeah, So dopamine is not the only neurotransmitter in the brain that helps us sort of feel good in some way. We know about you know, oxytocin, serotonin and lots of things happening in the brain and all sorts of combinations.

31:50 So the three kind of healthy, natural ways to get that experience of sort of happiness, but also kind of comfort and pleasure, movements, social connection, and music. As we said i'd be in writing the book, I was speaking with her professor in the US about music and she gave me this lovely quote around like, as far as we know, you can't become addicted to music. So it sort of activates dopamine, but some of those other sort of hormones and neurotransmitters in the brain, it can really kind of help us regulate our mood and feel good. And then if you think about doing that in combination with movements and even kind of social connection. So think going out dancing with friends, or a zumba class or something that kind of incorporates the three that can be incredibly effective for helping us with our mood.

32:43 Yeah, I love that. I think that's keeping an in mind those three things. I'm thinking even listening to music as you go for a walk or go for a run, and if you join a friend, then add that to the mix as well. But obviously you don't have to have all three together, but any combination of them or any one of them is going to be helpful. Yes, absolutely, going with a friend to see like a live music concert for example. You know, there's lots of ways that we can We might not necessarily get all three, but we can incorporate at least two of them. Yeah, I love it. I love it. The book is called The Dopamine Brain. It is now available. And Anastasia, how can people find you if they're interested in the work that you do?

33:25 Yes, So I'm I'm on all the socials. I love LinkedIn a big LinkedIn user. Feel free to connect with me on Instagram. You know, I may have dabbled in a TikTok video or two, but yeah, I'm pretty easy to find online. But it's always welcome feedback from people if they read the book and they found it's been useful, or they have suggestions for how they might implement some of these strategies in their life. So open to receiving emails and messages from people about it amazing. I'll put your contact details down in the your social handles down in the show notes so people can go and find them. It has been such a pleasure catching up with you again. Thank you so much and congratulations.

34:14 Oh thank you. Thanks for having me. It's been great. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend, think about leaving a five star rating and review, and make sure that you subscribe so that you never miss an episode. Come and connect with me on Instagram. I'm cast Done, Underscore XO or Crapy A Happy Pod. Please send ideas for future episodes to my website cast Done dot com Forward Slash Podcast. I am receiving your suggestions and loving them. Thank you so much for being here, and as always, I cannot wait to catch you next week for another episode of Crapy a Happy