Dec. 12, 2022

Discovering the meaning of masculinity with Rob 'Millsy' Mills

Discovering the meaning of masculinity with Rob 'Millsy' Mills
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Discovering the meaning of masculinity with Rob 'Millsy' Mills
Discovering the meaning of masculinity with Rob 'Millsy' Mills
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Season 8 Men's Health & Wellbeing

In this episode, Cass is joined by Rob ‘Millsy’ Mills - an Australian actor and musician. Since appearing as a finalist on the very first season of Australian Idol, Millsy has really carved out a name for himself in the entertainment sphere. Millsy’ new book, ‘Putting on a Show” looks at what it means to be an average Aussie bloke, and how men exist in the modern world. Millsy speaks about how men process and communicate their emotions, understanding how toxic masculinity affects both men and women, and how men can start opening up in their day to day lives.Connect with Rob:https://www.robmills.net.au/
Donate to Support Act:https://supportact.org.au/
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Transcript
WEBVTT

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A listener production.

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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Cas Dunn.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In

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this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

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people who are experts in their field and who have

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something of value to share that will help you feel

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less crappy and more happy. In today's episode, I'm speaking

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to Rob Milsey Mills, an Australian actor, musician, TV presenter

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and all round good guy. Since appearing as a finalist

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on the very first season of Australian Idol, Millsy has

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really carved out a name for himself in the entertainment industry.

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The pandemic was tough for Milsie, like it was for

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so many people. After losing two of his mates, he

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went on an exploration himself and more broadly, of manhood,

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mates and mental health. The result of that process is

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a brand new book that he has put out into

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the world called Putting On a Show, which looks at

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what it means to be an average Aussie bloke and

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how men exist in the modern world. During our chat,

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we speak about how men process and communicate their emotions,

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understanding how toxic masculinity affects both men and women, and

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how men can start opening up in their day to

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day lives. That is, if indeed we should expect them

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to enjoy this episode with Melsy. Melsy, Welcome to the

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Crapit Happy Podcast.

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It's great to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

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You have just written a book called Putting on a

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Show exploring a mental health, mateship and men the average

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Aussie bloke. I'm curious just to ask. First of all, Rob,

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I guess what was the catalyst for you exploring this

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topic and putting out a book things.

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I've always been pretty curious the last couples that I've

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been working on a one man show about identity of

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this country, so sort of looking at the songs that

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sort of have shaped our social and political landscape, the

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songs of like my grandfather and father knew. And then

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when approached by the publisher after I wrote an article

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about drinking culture and Australia about my own relationship with

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alcohol after losing a few mates to cancer during the pandemic,

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they were like, what do you want to talk about

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in the book, and I was like, oh, identity would

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be great, but it's a really big kind of conversation

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to talk about the whole country. And they said a

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lot of you look at it from the perspective of

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just the aussy man, and I started thinking about, Yeah,

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what is the aussy man?

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What is the Aussi bloke?

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The archetypes have definitely shifted over the last you know,

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twenty thirty forty years, even like you go back forty

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years or you could probably go all right, he's a

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sheep share in out black jackie, how we're in kind

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of bloke. And then there's the beach blonde eye blond

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surfer guy. Then there's the quintessential sort of footy player

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kind of bloke. They've all really shifted. There is no

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real just quintessential Aussie bloke. And I want to know

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what are the things that still make us Australian or

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what are the things that make us who we are?

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And is there such a thing as the real Aussie bloke?

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Yeah, well, you just preempted my next question because I

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was going to say, number one, who is the average

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ossy bloke?

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A Number two? Is there such a thing? No, there isn't. Look,

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we're so diverse.

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We're diverse in nationality, we're diverse in our religious beliefs,

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we're diverse in sexual orientation. We're so diverse in this

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country and all for the better. Like rainbows are the

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best possible thing that happened in the sky.

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I want to have a rainbow country as well.

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You know, like we're so diverse, and I think we

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need to realize how diverse that we are and need

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to keep celebrating that as well.

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You did really unpack like some of the issues around masculinity,

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and we'll get to talking about toxic masculinity. So I

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guess what were the first steps she took in starting

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to dive into this topic of looking at oss email culture.

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I think I really needed to ask people, so like

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I have one person's perspective, so yeah, yeah, best to

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ask either the people that are around me, also people

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that I found interesting people that are actually working in

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this field. So people like Dr Pat McCurry, who've and

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Professor Jane Purkis, Doctor Zach Seidler, Tommy Hark and that

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was sort of like my specialist people. And then there's

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also just the stupidly inquisitive and awesome humans, Tyson youngker Porter,

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my friend Jamilla Risby. There's also a guy called Maka

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who hosts a TV show called What's Up down Under?

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Who I met where it was co hosting the show

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with him a few years ago, and I've never met

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a more what you would say is a quint essentially

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Ozzie bloke, still got the really long bear a kubra.

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He's an ex military sniper, like he's so lives on

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the land, like he's always caravaning or camping or but

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we'll give you the shirt off his own back. That

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kind of you know, super blokey bloke, but also really

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kind and generous and considerate. So yeah, I went about

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asking all these similar questions of what do they think

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it is to be an ausy man? And is there

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such a thing as masculinity? What is it? Is it

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always toxic? And we discovered that no, it's just super

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important to have masculinity. I mean jokingly. I looked at

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the sort of paradox in the world of this toxic masculinity,

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but also looking at the most popular book in the

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last twenty thirty years for women was Fifty Shades of Gray,

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which is all about you know, dominance and masculinity like

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which you would say is hyper masculine, you know. So

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I also found it strange that the word masculine actually

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just says to the dictionary possessing qualities of a man, Like,

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what does that even mean? So I think we need

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to need to redefine what that is.

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I was reading your book and I guess you start

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really pushing strongly a feminist agenda. And I'm a feminist.

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Don't get me wrong. I think you can turn people off.

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Yeah, one hundred percent. I would agree.

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That's and that's the sort of plan I was going

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for with this book, as well as not shouting at people.

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But it's me learning. I'm learning from Jamilla, I'm learning

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from all the people throughout the book, and hopefully the

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reader is learning along with me, kind of like Lee

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Sales in Any Ordinary Day, which I read a few

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years ago, which I found myself just absolutely gobs back

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to the chats that she had with these people who

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have gone through horrific, traumatic sort of scenarios. But then

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Lee reflecting on that and it really made me go, oh,

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I think that's how I want my book to be, Like,

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is not so much of a memoir for me, but

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more of what am I learning from these interviews? And

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how can I like what am I reflecting? And also

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the whole thing is about trying to get blokes to

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self reflect. So if I can't self reflect, well, I'm

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not really not really doing my job. I by trying

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to get people to do the thing trill to get

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to do.

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Well, you did a very good You've done a very

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good job of it. I have to say, it's a

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really it's a really great read. The I guess the

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stereotypical blog doesn't talk about his feelings too much, and

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I think that's true. And the work that Tom does,

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obviously is in helping men to be able to share

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and express, sometimes for the first time in their lives,

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talk about their feelings from what you've learned, what you understood.

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How do we get more men to be able to

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do that every day? Not in a men's circle or

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an organized group.

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We don't do it every day. That's the thing. It's

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exhausting for men.

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This we get, we get we get compassion fatigue. So

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I'm going to get Gus Wordlan about this. At the

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moment we have like his aim is for like five

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percent real chat ninety five percent banter. At the moment,

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we're probably probably more around the one hundred percent banter.

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I would like it to be more around like fifteen

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to two twenty percent. That would be much better for

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me as far as our real chat goes, and about

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eighty percent banter.

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But I think for blokes it's building trust.

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We have to build so much trust in order to

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let our guards down or to be vulnerable, or as

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Tommy calls it, to be open, and a lot of

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the ways that men do that is through banter. We

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learn to trust someone through our gags and through our jokes,

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and creating that safe space for blokes is really important

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to know that. I don't know whether it's primal, whatever

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it is, doctor Zach says. I hope it's not primal,

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or it's in the DNA, because what the hell are

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we doing here if blogs are never going to learn,

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if we can't teach it, if it's already in the DNA.

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So I don't think it is. Maybe there's something in

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there though that we just refuse to show our feelings

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because it shows that we're weak, and that's the thing.

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When we show our true feelings, or that's when we

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actually really connect with one another. That's when we really

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connect with our partners, with our brothers and fathers and parents.

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It's those more often than not.

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For blokes, it's after tenders that they're like.

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Oh, bloody love you exactly.

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I've been going through all this hard stuff I haven't

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been able to talk to anyone about. I didn't know

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how to bring it up that. The way that I

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worked it out was just doing it. And it was

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long walks with my brother and we were training for

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the ox Fam one hundred kilometer walk.

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And I think those really.

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Long walks, after an hour, you've got all the small

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talk that's all gone. You've got nothing but time to

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self reflect on how you've felt about stuff as a kid,

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or how you think your own children are really feeling

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about something, or how you're feeling about something in life,

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what's troubling you. So I think long walks where you

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don't have to look at the person as well, is

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super important. I think a lot of people will will

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know that for some reason they just really connect well

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on a walk with their partner, or like in the

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car driving along, there's even with my partner now like

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we might not especially during lockdown, we might not have

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spoken properly. Fades go for a walk blah blah blah

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blah blah blah blah blah blah, or she's like, why

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didn't you tell me this stuff?

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Like I had no idea.

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It's not I don't know whether it's in all blows,

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but it's not in us to open up so easily.

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But yeah, we've got to build trust for for blokes,

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we have to prove that you're a trustworthy person. And

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that's what I love r Uokda as a really good

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reminder for for blokes, for anyone really to check in

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on your mates, but don't just ask them how they're

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going on that day, Like especially to a stranger. They

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they especially for a guy, they weren't they won't open up.

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But yeah, you've got to You've got to build that

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trust over time. And that's really important.

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Yes, very And I think the other important point that

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you made then for women listening is don't expect your

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partners to be open and sharing and vulnerable every single day.

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That's never going to happen. Yeah, there was.

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There was one of the things I was talking to

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my friend and Rachiano about this. She was really on

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me about it.

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See what women to help we men have already taken

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so much from us.

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I'm like, okay, I'm just saying that you were better

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at I'm giving you a compliment. Women are better at thoughts, feelings.

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Sharing just help help help us a little bit. We

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like being told stuff, you know, I mean, what to do,

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but we like being told how to make something better.

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Rob, we talked about stereotypical masculinity and this topic of

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toxic masculinity, which is a term, as you point out

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very rightly in the book, that really rubs a lot

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of men the wrong way. That hold just the concept

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of toxic masculinity. When does masculinity become toxic?

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I think it's when the banter with mates in that

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sort of pack mentality becomes aggressive towards women or towards

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a different subject. I think that's when it becomes toxic.

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And if no one is there calling it out, and

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that's when it comes from the blokes that they need

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to be like, oh, actually this is a bit too far. Yeah,

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but I think it's so important to still you need

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your masculinity. You need it to in case something goes

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wrong in an emergency. You need anger anger is still

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an emotion that we're still coming to terms with it.

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If you just bottle it up, it'll come out in

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horrible places. Call sometimes anger toxic masculating, Well, maybe it's not.

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You just haven't worked out how to use that emotion.

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And for blogs that refuse to tap into maybe their sadness,

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maybe that will come out in anger. So that's that's

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really that's really important to just work out what that

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is for you. But I think everyone knows what the

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toxic stuff is. It's sexism, it's misogyny. It's just a

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lack of awareness, a lack of awareness of your own

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privilege or a lack of a lack of awareness of

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your own power in the room or on the street

250
00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:36.279
late at night. That's that's something that's really important for

251
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I learned this men's circle that I sat in, like

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blokes sitting around going, you know what I do?

253
00:12:40.919 --> 00:12:43.799
I just across the road. Yeah I love that.

254
00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:46.879
Yeah, even the simple gesture of crossing the road. And

255
00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:48.440
some blogs go, why do I have to do that?

256
00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:51.240
It's because you're not aware of the power that you've got.

257
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That's all it is. And also, if someone is saying

258
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that men are horrible people like we're not all horrible,

259
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Like that's not for you. Then it's not just let

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that go. And that's once again it's blokes being ignorant

261
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and not not have done any kind of self reflection

262
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knowing that it's not for them, and that's okay. It's

263
00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:12.639
like a TVA comes on and go, this is crap.

264
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It's not for you. It's just change the channel. It's

265
00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:19.559
not for you. You don't need to be angry or upset

266
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about this.

267
00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:23.879
Yeah, you're right. It does get some men really defensive, though,

268
00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:26.399
doesn't it. It's like we're not saying that men are toxic.

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00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:31.480
We're saying that there are certain stereotypically masculine qualities that

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take them to the extreme, you know. And as you said,

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then it's that lack of willingness to reflect, and there's

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digging your heels in and defending and justifying behaviors that

273
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are not okay.

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Yeah, not okay, that's just kind of make it worse.

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You just you're then doing exactly the thing that we're

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talking about. So I would suggest, so, as I said,

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self reflect, ask you mates these questions. Speak to your parents,

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your brother's sister, or close friends or even your partner like,

279
00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:02.399
I don't want to lose you don't want to lose masculinity,

280
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you know for some for some couples that you know,

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that's that's where there's where there's a certain spark, there's

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a danger, there's a whatever that is if we if

283
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we beat that out of men just to not be

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masculine at all, then I think that's really really dangerous.

285
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And I think Tyson Younger Porter talks about it. The

286
00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:22.679
blokes that go too far into down that down that

287
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down that road, with the in cells and the men

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going their own way who are completely sort of anti women.

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That was a really fascinating chat throughout the book.

290
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I found that really fascinating in your book too, that

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conversation about in cells. I think I maybe didn't fully

292
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really understand what that term meant. Do you just want

293
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to quickly explain what that what that is for listeners?

294
00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:47.879
Yeah, involuntary celibate, so feeling that they've been shunned by women,

295
00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:52.799
so okay, and then just because of the Facebook or

296
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the social media algorithm, everyone has a place now. Everyone

297
00:14:56.039 --> 00:14:58.919
is looking for that place to belong and they've found

298
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other similar men who feel hard done by or by

299
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the world of women, which is just it just absolutely

300
00:15:08.919 --> 00:15:12.919
blows my mind. But anyway, I wish those blokes well

301
00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:14.960
and I hope that they find a way out of that,

302
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that they find the kindness within their own hearts and

303
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the people around them.

304
00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:20.879
Yeah, I fear for those guys.

305
00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:24.240
It's terrifying to be honest, and it's infuriating as a woman.

306
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It's the sense of entitlement that makes my blood boil,

307
00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:33.039
and to be honest, just a little example of this,

308
00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:36.080
and my daughter gets so frustrated. I've got a sixteen

309
00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:38.360
year old daughter. So we're in a new country. We've

310
00:15:38.360 --> 00:15:40.759
just moved to London. She's making friends, she's going to

311
00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:42.600
college over here. She doesn't have to go to college

312
00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:45.120
here because she's doing Ozzie school still, but she wanted

313
00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:47.159
to go out and make friends, and so she's meeting boys.

314
00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:50.200
And she has this blonde, dozzy girl over here in

315
00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:54.519
the UK, and she's attracting some male attention. And that's

316
00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:58.480
all fine, but there's this one boy who's been really, like,

317
00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:02.080
really quite upfront with how much he likes her and

318
00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:04.200
comes and sits next to her. He has actually come

319
00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:06.080
out and said to her, am I trying too hard?

320
00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:08.840
Are you not really interested? And she says, yeah, you are,

321
00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:10.960
and no, I'm not. Like she's quite direct about it.

322
00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:14.759
I sometimes feel like, you know, like stand up for yourself.

323
00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:18.480
But she's pretty good like that. But this kid's she's

324
00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:20.799
this is a long story, but she's actually really good

325
00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:23.879
friends with this guy's mate. And so one day they've

326
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been at the cafeteria and she went to get up

327
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to leave and she hugged her friend, and this other kid,

328
00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:31.320
the one who really likes her, said, where's my hug

329
00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:35.399
and she just said, well, there's not one, and she left.

330
00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:38.840
And he messaged her the next day and said, by

331
00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:42.879
the way, that was really rude. I really don't like

332
00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:45.240
the fact that you didn't hug me, and you really

333
00:16:45.320 --> 00:16:51.759
hurt my feelings. And I was furious about this. I'm

334
00:16:51.799 --> 00:16:54.360
trying to explain to my daughter that this is just

335
00:16:54.399 --> 00:17:00.639
a micro version of this male entitlement, that you need

336
00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:02.840
to change your behavior and show affection to him because

337
00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:05.240
you made him feel bad. I just and she says,

338
00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:08.480
oh my god, mummy, you're overreacting everything, that everything's a

339
00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:13.519
slippery slope and to domestic violence or you know, I.

340
00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:15.799
Can I also interject, is it also possible, and I'm

341
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:19.519
sure you thought about this as well, that blokes who

342
00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:22.119
also we've talked about, are not very good at communicating.

343
00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:24.519
The only way that he felt was necessary to communicate

344
00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:26.799
his feelings was through a text message because he felt

345
00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:28.519
embarrassed to say that he felt hurt.

346
00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:31.480
So but also, if you're not going to get.

347
00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:32.680
A hug, you're not going to get a hug, I

348
00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:36.039
would suggest, and I'm no therapist at all here, having

349
00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:38.640
the conversation is so much better than having a text message.

350
00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:41.640
Trying to talk about thoughts and feelings through text message

351
00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:45.480
is just it's just I've no idea how people do this.

352
00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:48.200
They have breakups, they have conversations like with this is

353
00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:51.599
for bantering. It's not for long form kind of in depth,

354
00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:54.599
especially when we're talking about emotions and tone and all

355
00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:58.480
those sorts of things. I feel sorry for both, for

356
00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:01.759
both parties in this situation. But let's hope he's just

357
00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:04.240
one of the guys is go, well, I feel really hurt,

358
00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:07.559
Like it's like I feel so strongly about you, but

359
00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:10.039
you feel nothing for me. If it was around the

360
00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:12.359
other way, how does that look as well? How does

361
00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:14.160
that look if it is around the other.

362
00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:14.759
Yeah, true.

363
00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:18.000
That is true, because I go straight to, oh my god,

364
00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:21.720
you're not entitled to a woman showing your affection.

365
00:18:21.880 --> 00:18:24.920
Look, you know, he was possibly just her at least,

366
00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:26.759
as I said, at least he's a voiced it that

367
00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:27.400
he could have just.

368
00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:31.000
Said nothing and then just sat it. Set it on

369
00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:32.799
the rage, so on the resentment.

370
00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:36.799
True, that is a good point. He did in express it,

371
00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:39.480
and she just replied and said, I'm sorry you felt

372
00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:41.640
like that way. Like I hug people who I'm really

373
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close to and we're not really close. So that was

374
00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:51.839
the end of that. But yeah, she's she's doing well.

375
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I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the

376
00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:58.119
benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are

377
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:00.960
enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe

378
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:03.319
so that you get notified when you app's drop and

379
00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:05.839
head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen

380
00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:15.559
and leave us a rating and review. That's can we

381
00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:18.559
talk about rob you Actually we've probably already touched on

382
00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:21.519
this too, but the idea that toxic masculinity, Like I'm

383
00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:25.319
just talking about how I feel as a woman on

384
00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:28.200
the receiving it and how that impacts women and children,

385
00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:31.759
But toxic masculinity is really harmful to men as well.

386
00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:33.960
And I think this is the point right that we

387
00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:36.839
need to be which You've done a great job in

388
00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:39.599
this book, and people like Tommy Hawkin are doing as well,

389
00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:43.599
but helping men to understand that toxic masculinity isn't a

390
00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:46.480
a criticism of men, it actually is harmful to men

391
00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:47.279
as much as it is.

392
00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:50.920
Yeah, we're trying to live up to certain stereotypes. I

393
00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:54.440
talk about how it sort of infiltrates our WhatsApp groups

394
00:19:54.440 --> 00:19:57.319
with blokes they're trying to outblock each other. Sometimes that

395
00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:02.000
can become problematic or dangerous. Once again, trying to message

396
00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:07.799
sort of thoughts and feelings through message is also kind

397
00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:10.039
of hard to get tone right as well. Some people

398
00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:13.640
might misread it. So yeah, I think it's dangerous in

399
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:18.559
that sense, but also dangerous if, yeah, you're trying to

400
00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:21.400
live up to this sort of if you're not the

401
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:23.000
alpha person, maybe I should be more.

402
00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:24.640
Alpha, maybe I should be more blokey.

403
00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:27.279
You don't have to be like whatever it is, whatever

404
00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:30.519
the dynamic is, find the things that you have more

405
00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:33.960
in common. But yeah, it is it can be dangerous

406
00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.279
and a slippery slope for some blokes who are trying

407
00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:39.559
to be something that they're not. So just I would say,

408
00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:42.039
and it just comes from doing the work that introspection

409
00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:44.359
which I talked about, or self reflection. I think the

410
00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:47.680
earlier that you can do that, the easier it becomes.

411
00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:50.279
And also just to divoice your thoughts and feelings to

412
00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:52.759
your friends. I think I get to it later in life.

413
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:56.319
I think we all get to self worth and we

414
00:20:56.359 --> 00:20:58.640
get to sort of I think your brain maybe just

415
00:20:58.680 --> 00:21:02.039
develops ter on in life because the whole time through

416
00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:03.839
primary school, high school.

417
00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:05.519
Got to fit in, got to fit in, gotta fit in,

418
00:21:05.559 --> 00:21:06.240
got to fit in.

419
00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:08.680
I don't know why that is, whether it's the way

420
00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:11.160
the schools are just structured, the way the classes, or

421
00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:14.720
the way education system is structured. It doesn't really for

422
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:17.640
the outliers of the elite kids. And I don't mean

423
00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:20.480
elite because you're rich and stuff. I just mean elite

424
00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:22.680
because you've worked, you've worked out who it is that

425
00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:25.160
you want to be, you know, for the next ten

426
00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:29.000
years or so, they found a lot easier to get ahead.

427
00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:31.759
But I don't know, maybe I just didn't put enough

428
00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:32.160
work in.

429
00:21:32.839 --> 00:21:34.519
And I think that's what I talk about throughout the book,

430
00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:39.400
wasn't surrounded with an environment where introspection was valued or

431
00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:42.640
wasn't talked about a lot in order to find out

432
00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:46.119
who I was and you know where I was going. Luckily,

433
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:50.319
for me, I kept surrounding myself with just kind, lovely people.

434
00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:54.680
I never really got I never went down a completely dark,

435
00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:57.079
slippery slope. I had older brothers and had good people

436
00:21:57.119 --> 00:21:59.359
around me to sort of go, oh, those people are

437
00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:01.480
probably a bit maybe pull your.

438
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:02.200
Head in a bit, you know.

439
00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:05.640
Yeah, And you talk about that in the book as well,

440
00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:09.799
that importance of positive role models, positive male role models,

441
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:13.039
and also this idea of mentors and this idea of

442
00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:18.000
eldership which is kind of missing now. And it really

443
00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:19.880
wasn't until you said it in the book that I

444
00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:22.279
thought about it. That it's true that a lot of

445
00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:25.400
young people are taking their cues or getting their life

446
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:28.920
advice from other young people who don't necessarily have the

447
00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:32.440
life experience to share. But I think also the sad

448
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:36.440
thing is there's this whole like okay, boomer attitude that

449
00:22:36.599 --> 00:22:40.640
is very dismissive of what older people might have to share, right,

450
00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:43.200
Like we just dismissed them as being oh well, I say,

451
00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:46.759
we I'm probably getting closer to that generation. But you know,

452
00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:50.160
like young people are very dismissive of older people. What's

453
00:22:50.200 --> 00:22:53.480
your thoughts about that and how we get around that.

454
00:22:53.480 --> 00:22:56.240
That was a really great chat with Asha Pacman, who

455
00:22:56.599 --> 00:22:59.160
is from this Worry Within sort of Men's Circle kind

456
00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:02.960
of thing, which is a lot about ancient mythology. Some

457
00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:04.920
of the texts that he's sent me that I've read through,

458
00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:07.200
especially even even now, it's like, oh, there's some really

459
00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:10.400
good wisdom in there. You know, there's about stoicism and

460
00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:12.519
also about vulnerability.

461
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:15.079
But in old, old, old, ancient texts.

462
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:17.240
You know, I think it is dangerous to get all

463
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:22.240
your life advice from just life coaches on Instagram and memes.

464
00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:26.559
That come through. Yeah, yeah, it is worth talking to.

465
00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:30.039
I mean, how much did you learn from watching five

466
00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:32.559
year olds for old people's homes for five year olds?

467
00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:35.839
You know, old people's homes for teenagers, like brilliant shows.

468
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:39.119
You know, like, I'm sure they did everything a bit differently,

469
00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:42.799
but there is wisdom in that. And not every not

470
00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:45.039
every old person, and not every boomer is going to

471
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:50.119
be a horrible boom just have no idea, but like

472
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:52.279
there's gonna be lots of wisdom there you've but it

473
00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:55.079
doesn't just come at you like on an algorithm, like

474
00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:58.079
through your phone. You still need to do the work.

475
00:23:58.119 --> 00:24:00.839
There's still people, there's still you know, research papers, there's

476
00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:04.799
still articles of like authors and like incredible writers that

477
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:08.079
have have lived before before us that you can find

478
00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:11.079
some really you know, some gems. And it could be

479
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:13.680
from an uncle or an auntie or a role model.

480
00:24:13.720 --> 00:24:15.440
So I'll just get back to the Yeah, the importance

481
00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:18.119
of the sort of male role models, not just male

482
00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:20.839
role models, they're non gendered or female role models in

483
00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:22.759
your in your in your life as growing up as

484
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:25.160
a kid, you need them all the stuff. I mean,

485
00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:26.920
I am not a parent, but all the stuff that

486
00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:30.160
I have read from like Stephen Bidolf and all his

487
00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:33.160
teachings and all the research I did, Like, parents are

488
00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:36.000
meant to keep you alive, and the people around them

489
00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:38.960
are the ones to inspire them. You could also inspire

490
00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:41.200
them as well, but like that's the role models and

491
00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:44.279
those mentors that really give them the the other stuff,

492
00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:46.079
you know, the flare, the magic.

493
00:24:46.519 --> 00:24:47.880
The parents just got to keep them alive.

494
00:24:48.039 --> 00:24:50.920
It's I think I think parents are trying to do

495
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:54.400
so much and they're not not utilizing the village. But yeah,

496
00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:58.480
it is important, especially for boys to see male sort

497
00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:02.200
of role models. But unfortunately, what happens for blokes over

498
00:25:02.200 --> 00:25:06.599
the years, especially in what our research in this book,

499
00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:09.839
is their friendships fall by the wayside and end up

500
00:25:09.880 --> 00:25:12.319
just hanging out with their wives friends or their girlfriend's

501
00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:15.559
friends and that's their friends. Then they don't put the

502
00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:18.440
effort into to have those catch ups, and I think

503
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:22.319
it's because they never had those really deep, meaningful conversations

504
00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:27.200
which connected them deeper. Yeah, I think what I'm trying

505
00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:29.759
to get at throughout the book is have those chats,

506
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:34.640
have those deep, vulnerable open chats. So therefore your friendships

507
00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:38.319
are deeper that you can share, you know, deeper things

508
00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:42.039
in order to I don't know, make your friendship stronger,

509
00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:43.119
last longer.

510
00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:45.279
I think the other thing, you know, going back to

511
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:49.160
that okay boomer thing, is the ability to be open

512
00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:53.119
to connecting with another person who maybe doesn't believe all

513
00:25:53.160 --> 00:25:55.880
the exact same things that we believe about something. I

514
00:25:55.880 --> 00:26:00.640
think that's another negative kind of consequence of social media

515
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:03.720
and the algorithm, which just forces us all into these

516
00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:07.359
echo chambers where we're just constantly hearing that our own

517
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:10.240
opinions fed back to us and reinforced, and that's how

518
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:13.440
those in cell groups get so dangerous as well too. Right,

519
00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:16.559
So we seem to have, you know, lost the ability

520
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:19.799
to be able to connect with people and be open

521
00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:23.200
to hearing a diverse range of opinions. We don't have

522
00:26:23.240 --> 00:26:25.640
to agree with everybody, but it doesn't mean people don't

523
00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:28.359
have something of value to share that we could learn from.

524
00:26:28.519 --> 00:26:31.200
You should definitely like this whole US versus then the

525
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:33.920
thing that's coming through from America, especially the last ten

526
00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:35.880
to twenty years.

527
00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:37.240
This red states, Blue states.

528
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:41.799
Like, it's this study that I read about was like

529
00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:44.920
a world study done of and I'm going to butcher this,

530
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:47.799
but basically the gist of it is, Look, if you

531
00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:49.519
want research, it's in the book.

532
00:26:49.599 --> 00:26:51.279
If you want me to remember research, it's not in

533
00:26:51.319 --> 00:26:51.640
my head.

534
00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:54.599
Yeah, yeah, you sound like me. I'm like, oh, it's like,

535
00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:56.240
this is the gist of it. Don't ask me that

536
00:26:56.279 --> 00:26:57.440
were the details.

537
00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:00.799
So we have basically, we have like a study out

538
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:04.960
of random people from across the world, socioeconomic differences, right,

539
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:08.759
different diversities, and we all, like ninety six percent of

540
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:12.039
us want the same thing, right, and when I say

541
00:27:12.119 --> 00:27:14.200
ninety six percent of us. I meant, out of all

542
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:16.839
the things that were on the list, ninety six percent

543
00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:18.759
of those people of the people just went, yeah, we

544
00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:20.759
would need shelter, we need food, we need some money

545
00:27:20.759 --> 00:27:23.000
for holiday, we need we want to care for our families.

546
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:26.279
Like we all want the same thing, but we're all

547
00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:29.480
just going about it a slightly different way. That's the

548
00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:31.480
But if you just break it down to what are

549
00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:33.720
the things that we actually want, Like even I talk

550
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:39.880
about the pandemic, people getting super angry, splitting up friendship groups,

551
00:27:39.880 --> 00:27:43.079
and people getting vaccinated not vaccinated. I was like, look,

552
00:27:43.240 --> 00:27:46.519
the science says we need eighty percent of the population

553
00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:49.640
to make it work. Twenty percent don't need to if

554
00:27:49.640 --> 00:27:52.279
they choose not to, that's okay. And do you know why,

555
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:54.759
Because they want safety for their family and they want

556
00:27:54.759 --> 00:27:55.759
safety for their friends.

557
00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:57.359
What are the people who want vaccinated?

558
00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:59.160
They want safety for their friends, they want safety for

559
00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:01.319
the fact like that they're both seeing the greater good,

560
00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:03.880
but in just a different way. And it's a really

561
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:08.160
strange way to look at it. But I just kept saying,

562
00:28:08.759 --> 00:28:10.319
it's fine if this is not for you, this is

563
00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:13.960
not for you, And I can't help you change your mind,

564
00:28:13.960 --> 00:28:17.279
other than to show you some statistics and all that

565
00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:19.559
sort of stuff and then they'll find their own statistics. Anyway,

566
00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:22.839
as a whole, we just we definitely, I think majority

567
00:28:22.839 --> 00:28:23.880
of the people want the same thing.

568
00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:26.000
You know. The research also indicates that the best way

569
00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:27.839
to get somebody on board with an opinion is to

570
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:31.799
probably just hear their you know, like this whole going

571
00:28:31.839 --> 00:28:34.240
head to head and arguing with somebody only forces people

572
00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:37.039
to dig their heels in anyway, So that's a lose

573
00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:38.400
lose for everybody.

574
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:40.079
Yeah, we need to sit.

575
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:41.759
We need to sit, We need to listen, we need

576
00:28:41.799 --> 00:28:44.640
to sit with the opposite side of the argument.

577
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:47.599
We've lost critical thought, We've lost the art of.

578
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:52.079
Debate with our fellow man woman person, and I think

579
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:54.000
that's severely lacking.

580
00:28:54.559 --> 00:28:56.319
During the two years of the pandemic, you are a

581
00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:58.720
person who works in the entertainment industry who pretty much

582
00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:01.799
lost your income as well as obviously being all of

583
00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:04.680
the other stuff that goes along with the pandemic and lockdowns,

584
00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:08.160
and you lost two friends. What was the impact of

585
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:09.720
that on your mental health?

586
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:13.200
It wasn't great. I mean, we will, we will have

587
00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:13.680
to pivot.

588
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:17.279
I ended up working as a creative consultant for a

589
00:29:18.279 --> 00:29:22.279
for an online banking company. That was kind of interesting

590
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:25.599
for me to work at how the business world works.

591
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:29.400
But I was still creating content, still trying to write

592
00:29:29.400 --> 00:29:32.039
some fun songs that I thought were some sort of

593
00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:35.480
parody kind of fun songs. Just I think as artists

594
00:29:35.480 --> 00:29:37.839
we will always find our light. I did find it

595
00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:41.079
interesting though there was no benefit concept for the artists.

596
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:46.319
Whenever there's a flood or a fire or that's the

597
00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:49.519
artists that will always donate their time for charity.

598
00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:50.119
Or for the people.

599
00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:54.640
I was like, Oh, I'm hoping this year everyone donates

600
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:57.200
to support ACT, which which definitely helped a lot of

601
00:29:57.319 --> 00:30:00.599
artists through the last couple of years. Yeah, I was

602
00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:03.839
fortunate enough to still do some zoom gigs and to

603
00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:07.039
get through. My partner was working full time, so we

604
00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:11.759
were okay. And I also had been saving up the pennies,

605
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:16.000
you know, squirreling away some nuts for the rainy day.

606
00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:18.519
As my dad taught me many years ago.

607
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:21.039
You know, you never know when, especially as an artist,

608
00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:24.720
when the next gig is and luckily for me, i'd

609
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:28.440
squirreled some stuff away. So it was pretty devastating. Also,

610
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:31.359
to hear from from Scomo that we were non essential

611
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:34.960
was just really heartbreaking throughout that time, Like, oh, because

612
00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:41.359
everyone's listening to music and watching movies at home, that's us.

613
00:30:40.599 --> 00:30:43.960
That's that's very I feel like it's very essential.

614
00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:49.480
And that was the thing about the crazy two years

615
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:51.480
that we all went through, wasn't it. I think many

616
00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:55.519
many people experienced mental health struggles for the first time

617
00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:56.079
in their life.

618
00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:58.400
For starters, we're not meant to be alone.

619
00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:02.279
We're not meant to be alone. And people who are

620
00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:04.839
struggling for the first time in their life, particularly if

621
00:31:04.839 --> 00:31:08.119
you're a person who's not used to talking, hasn't had

622
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:11.000
that practice at talking and sharing and asking for help,

623
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:14.640
then you're especially at risk. You know. Not that asking

624
00:31:14.680 --> 00:31:17.960
for help and talking is necessarily guarantee that you'll be

625
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:21.000
all right, but you'll certainly hopefully, it's that muscle you've

626
00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:21.920
got to build, right.

627
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:25.359
Absolutely, And for a lot of people who were actually

628
00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:31.559
alone during that time, I feel so dreadfully horrible for

629
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:34.440
and so thankful that we have the services that we

630
00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:39.720
have in this country, whether it's Lifeline, just and Beyond

631
00:31:39.720 --> 00:31:42.960
Blue and all the Black Dog Institute, and there's so

632
00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:45.359
many great services that even through Hello Sunday Morning, that

633
00:31:45.400 --> 00:31:48.519
are doing, Like how great that we have those services available.

634
00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:53.680
I found it strange during the pandemic seeing some of

635
00:31:53.720 --> 00:31:56.319
the newspapers like, well, it's shocking that some of the

636
00:31:57.279 --> 00:32:01.200
call the call rates have gone up at Lifeline, Like yeah,

637
00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:02.880
because that's the number that you put on the screen,

638
00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:05.960
How great, how great that the people are using the service.

639
00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:08.640
But they've they've spun it in a negative way, like

640
00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:10.839
more people using them, like yeah, it's the number that

641
00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:12.440
comes up on the screen and every time that they

642
00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:16.079
talk about on the ABC on any on any network,

643
00:32:16.519 --> 00:32:17.559
and you're.

644
00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:20.400
Of course it's going up. Great, how great that they're

645
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:22.880
using the service, and how great that we have the service.

646
00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:27.559
And anyway, I've always found that so strange to put

647
00:32:27.559 --> 00:32:32.119
a negative spinning it when it already it's got a

648
00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:35.400
negative kind of thing, which I think we're getting past it.

649
00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:38.200
It's social change, whether it's mental health.

650
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:40.559
And it used to be like just general fitness, like

651
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:42.039
we have to have a whole life be in it

652
00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:45.000
thing many many years ago because we were just become

653
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:47.720
a bit fat. So like now we're like, all right,

654
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:50.599
let's get fit, not just with our bodies, but with

655
00:32:50.440 --> 00:32:51.279
our with our minds.

656
00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:53.680
I think man Gus Wallen is right at the forefront

657
00:32:53.720 --> 00:32:54.279
of that as well.

658
00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:57.759
Yeah, good before you go. So you're also talk in

659
00:32:57.759 --> 00:33:01.000
the book about your experience of having worked with a psychologist,

660
00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:04.000
and I think you also make reference to even not you,

661
00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:06.000
but I think a friend of yours who uses the

662
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:09.000
services of a life coach. What would be your advice.

663
00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:11.839
We do have men listening to this podcast, So if

664
00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:14.119
anybody's listening and thinking, oh, yeah, you know, maybe I

665
00:33:14.119 --> 00:33:16.519
should take this on board and do something, what's your

666
00:33:16.519 --> 00:33:20.319
advice to men listening about or your experience? I guess

667
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:21.960
about talking to a psychologist.

668
00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:23.599
It's kind of like a coach.

669
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:27.200
They're kind of like a coach of the footy team,

670
00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:29.880
or they're kind of like a hairdresser or And I

671
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:32.079
say that not because of their skill set, but I

672
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:34.319
just mean the fact that they might not be the

673
00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:36.640
one for you. Like you might not have liked You're

674
00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:39.400
under sixteen footy coach, but you really like Tor Runner

675
00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:43.359
eighteen footy coach. It's try them out. Don't just go

676
00:33:43.400 --> 00:33:44.960
to one and go well, it didn't work, they were

677
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:48.440
crap hated it. They didn't get me. Also, try and

678
00:33:48.440 --> 00:33:50.920
find one that does zoom. Just try and fit it

679
00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:53.319
in with your life. A lot of them moving to

680
00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:55.480
Teleyhealth now so you can do this kind of chat,

681
00:33:55.720 --> 00:33:58.440
so you can sit up on the couch or like

682
00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:01.079
I've had chats with my psych driving the car. I'm like, mate,

683
00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:03.519
I'm out an appointment all day, it went late. Can

684
00:34:03.559 --> 00:34:04.680
we just do it on the phone. He's like, yeah,

685
00:34:04.839 --> 00:34:06.319
just do on the phone. So I'm driving the car

686
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:09.400
having a chat, Like I thought that was amazing. So

687
00:34:09.719 --> 00:34:12.119
he's still taking in all this stuff that I'm saying

688
00:34:12.199 --> 00:34:12.440
is right.

689
00:34:12.519 --> 00:34:16.000
I'm down. There's something about go for a walk. See

690
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:17.400
if one of them will go for a walk with you.

691
00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:20.320
I don't they do pykes do that walk and talk therapy.

692
00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:21.360
It's a thing for blokes.

693
00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:23.960
It'll be a life change. It'll be an absolute life

694
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:25.960
change because you have to look at the person staring

695
00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:28.159
at you, judging you. I think this will be an

696
00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:32.280
absolute game change if more psychs can can can realize that.

697
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:35.239
But yeah, find one that works for you. There are numerous.

698
00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:37.360
Unfortunately, there is a wait list at the moment, but

699
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:40.119
I know that they're working towards that, trying to work

700
00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:43.679
out the best way to facilitate that within the psych

701
00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:47.119
realm of humans. I don't know what they're called, there's

702
00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:51.119
a governing body for them. I would highly recommend, yeah,

703
00:34:51.239 --> 00:34:54.360
just just giving it a go I mean what, You've

704
00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:57.079
got nothing, nothing else to lose, other than you're going

705
00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:59.840
to learn a lot of things about yourself, probably that

706
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:02.920
don't like, which is good. But then you realize I

707
00:35:02.920 --> 00:35:05.280
should stop judging myself for those things that I don't like,

708
00:35:05.800 --> 00:35:08.840
acknowledge them, but I like, well, how can I either

709
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:11.719
improve them? But also they don't define me wholly? And

710
00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:13.880
then you realize what are the things I do love

711
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:16.800
about myself? And then you start going, oh, I love

712
00:35:16.840 --> 00:35:21.039
myself and not on a I'm up myself, But oh

713
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:23.599
I need to love myself so I can love my partner,

714
00:35:23.639 --> 00:35:28.239
so I can love my friends better. That's the most important,

715
00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:30.239
because we.

716
00:35:29.480 --> 00:35:31.079
Don't know how to we don't know how to do it.

717
00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:32.719
We don't know how to love ourselves properly.

718
00:35:32.920 --> 00:35:35.719
That is really great advice. I would add too that

719
00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:38.639
if you know of a psych like if somebody, if

720
00:35:38.679 --> 00:35:40.559
your friend is seeing somebody and they said, this person's

721
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:42.840
really good, you can take the name of that person

722
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:44.239
to your gp. You don't have to go with the

723
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:46.639
psych that the GP recommends. In fact, GPS love it

724
00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:50.199
if you bring a name for them. And exactly as

725
00:35:50.199 --> 00:35:52.480
you said, Rob, if you don't click, if you don't

726
00:35:52.519 --> 00:35:55.519
gel with the first person that you meet, it's totally

727
00:35:55.559 --> 00:35:59.199
fine to go and find somebody else, because I think

728
00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:01.599
too many people like might have one session and I mean,

729
00:36:01.639 --> 00:36:03.199
you know, hang in there, give it a go. But

730
00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:06.079
if you really like this is not for me, then

731
00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:09.639
don't write off the whole thing because of one person

732
00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:12.000
that you don't click with. I've had many I was

733
00:36:12.039 --> 00:36:14.920
practicing therapy in Australia obviously now can't in the UK,

734
00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:17.280
but I had many clients come to me who had

735
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:20.679
been to other pikes first and didn't click and then

736
00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:22.599
came to see me. And I'm equally I'm pretty sure

737
00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:24.639
that probably some people saw me and then went off

738
00:36:24.679 --> 00:36:28.000
and found somebody else, And there's no hard feelings about that.

739
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:31.119
Everybody's got to find the person that they deal with.

740
00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:34.599
So great advice. Thank you, Rob, really love the book.

741
00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:37.199
Congratulations and thank you so much for your time today.

742
00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:39.519
Thank you so much for having me on the show.

743
00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:43.679
It's a really good podcast and you do a great work.

744
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:48.440
That's Cool. Milsey's book is called Putting On a Show.

745
00:36:48.519 --> 00:36:52.159
It's available now in all good bookstores. If you love

746
00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:53.960
listening to Crapit and have you, please do us a

747
00:36:53.960 --> 00:36:56.960
favor and subscribe, leave a five star rating and review,

748
00:36:57.280 --> 00:36:59.159
and come and follow me on socials to keep up

749
00:36:59.159 --> 00:37:02.480
with everything that I'm I'm doing. I'm cast done underscore XO,

750
00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:06.400
usually on Instagram and TikTok. I cannot wait to catch

751
00:37:06.440 --> 00:37:13.599
you in the next episode of Crapy to happy listener,