Discovering the meaning of masculinity with Rob 'Millsy' Mills

0:02 A listener production. This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Cas Dunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field and who have something of value to share that will help you feel less crappy and more happy. In today's episode, I'm speaking to Rob Milsey Mills, an Australian actor, musician, TV presenter and all round good guy. Since appearing as a finalist on the very first season of Australian Idol, Millsy has really carved out a name for himself in the entertainment industry.

0:52 The pandemic was tough for Milsie, like it was for so many people. After losing two of his mates, he went on an exploration himself and more broadly, of manhood, mates and mental health. The result of that process is a brand new book that he has put out into the world called Putting On a Show, which looks at what it means to be an average Aussie bloke and how men exist in the modern world. During our chat, we speak about how men process and communicate their emotions, understanding how toxic masculinity affects both men and women, and how men can start opening up in their day to day lives. That is, if indeed we should expect them to enjoy this episode with Melsy. Melsy, Welcome to the Crapit Happy Podcast.

1:41 It's great to be here. Thanks so much for having me. You have just written a book called Putting on a Show exploring a mental health, mateship and men the average Aussie bloke. I'm curious just to ask. First of all, Rob, I guess what was the catalyst for you exploring this topic and putting out a book things. I've always been pretty curious the last couples that I've been working on a one man show about identity of this country, so sort of looking at the songs that sort of have shaped our social and political landscape, the songs of like my grandfather and father knew. And then when approached by the publisher after I wrote an article about drinking culture and Australia about my own relationship with alcohol after losing a few mates to cancer during the pandemic, they were like, what do you want to talk about in the book, and I was like, oh, identity would be great, but it's a really big kind of conversation to talk about the whole country. And they said a lot of you look at it from the perspective of just the aussy man, and I started thinking about, Yeah, what is the aussy man?

2:40 What is the Aussi bloke? The archetypes have definitely shifted over the last you know, twenty thirty forty years, even like you go back forty years or you could probably go all right, he's a sheep share in out black jackie, how we're in kind of bloke. And then there's the beach blonde eye blond surfer guy. Then there's the quintessential sort of footy player kind of bloke. They've all really shifted. There is no real just quintessential Aussie bloke. And I want to know what are the things that still make us Australian or what are the things that make us who we are? And is there such a thing as the real Aussie bloke? Yeah, well, you just preempted my next question because I was going to say, number one, who is the average ossy bloke?

3:20 A Number two? Is there such a thing? No, there isn't. Look, we're so diverse. We're diverse in nationality, we're diverse in our religious beliefs, we're diverse in sexual orientation. We're so diverse in this country and all for the better. Like rainbows are the best possible thing that happened in the sky. I want to have a rainbow country as well. You know, like we're so diverse, and I think we need to realize how diverse that we are and need to keep celebrating that as well. You did really unpack like some of the issues around masculinity, and we'll get to talking about toxic masculinity. So I guess what were the first steps she took in starting to dive into this topic of looking at oss email culture.

4:06 I think I really needed to ask people, so like I have one person's perspective, so yeah, yeah, best to ask either the people that are around me, also people that I found interesting people that are actually working in this field. So people like Dr Pat McCurry, who've and Professor Jane Purkis, Doctor Zach Seidler, Tommy Hark and that was sort of like my specialist people. And then there's also just the stupidly inquisitive and awesome humans, Tyson youngker Porter, my friend Jamilla Risby. There's also a guy called Maka who hosts a TV show called What's Up down Under? Who I met where it was co hosting the show with him a few years ago, and I've never met a more what you would say is a quint essentially Ozzie bloke, still got the really long bear a kubra.

4:56 He's an ex military sniper, like he's so lives on the land, like he's always caravaning or camping or but we'll give you the shirt off his own back. That kind of you know, super blokey bloke, but also really kind and generous and considerate. So yeah, I went about asking all these similar questions of what do they think it is to be an ausy man? And is there such a thing as masculinity? What is it? Is it always toxic? And we discovered that no, it's just super important to have masculinity. I mean jokingly. I looked at the sort of paradox in the world of this toxic masculinity, but also looking at the most popular book in the last twenty thirty years for women was Fifty Shades of Gray, which is all about you know, dominance and masculinity like which you would say is hyper masculine, you know. So I also found it strange that the word masculine actually just says to the dictionary possessing qualities of a man, Like, what does that even mean? So I think we need to need to redefine what that is.

5:59 I was reading your book and I guess you start really pushing strongly a feminist agenda. And I'm a feminist. Don't get me wrong. I think you can turn people off. Yeah, one hundred percent. I would agree. That's and that's the sort of plan I was going for with this book, as well as not shouting at people. But it's me learning. I'm learning from Jamilla, I'm learning from all the people throughout the book, and hopefully the reader is learning along with me, kind of like Lee Sales in Any Ordinary Day, which I read a few years ago, which I found myself just absolutely gobs back to the chats that she had with these people who have gone through horrific, traumatic sort of scenarios. But then Lee reflecting on that and it really made me go, oh, I think that's how I want my book to be, Like, is not so much of a memoir for me, but more of what am I learning from these interviews? And how can I like what am I reflecting? And also the whole thing is about trying to get blokes to self reflect. So if I can't self reflect, well, I'm not really not really doing my job. I by trying to get people to do the thing trill to get to do.

7:01 Well, you did a very good You've done a very good job of it. I have to say, it's a really it's a really great read. The I guess the stereotypical blog doesn't talk about his feelings too much, and I think that's true. And the work that Tom does, obviously is in helping men to be able to share and express, sometimes for the first time in their lives, talk about their feelings from what you've learned, what you understood. How do we get more men to be able to do that every day? Not in a men's circle or an organized group. We don't do it every day. That's the thing. It's exhausting for men. This we get, we get we get compassion fatigue. So I'm going to get Gus Wordlan about this. At the moment we have like his aim is for like five percent real chat ninety five percent banter. At the moment, we're probably probably more around the one hundred percent banter.

7:56 I would like it to be more around like fifteen to two twenty percent. That would be much better for me as far as our real chat goes, and about eighty percent banter. But I think for blokes it's building trust. We have to build so much trust in order to let our guards down or to be vulnerable, or as Tommy calls it, to be open, and a lot of the ways that men do that is through banter. We learn to trust someone through our gags and through our jokes, and creating that safe space for blokes is really important to know that. I don't know whether it's primal, whatever it is, doctor Zach says. I hope it's not primal, or it's in the DNA, because what the hell are we doing here if blogs are never going to learn, if we can't teach it, if it's already in the DNA.

8:38 So I don't think it is. Maybe there's something in there though that we just refuse to show our feelings because it shows that we're weak, and that's the thing. When we show our true feelings, or that's when we actually really connect with one another. That's when we really connect with our partners, with our brothers and fathers and parents. It's those more often than not. For blokes, it's after tenders that they're like. Oh, bloody love you exactly. I've been going through all this hard stuff I haven't been able to talk to anyone about. I didn't know how to bring it up that. The way that I worked it out was just doing it. And it was long walks with my brother and we were training for the ox Fam one hundred kilometer walk. And I think those really. Long walks, after an hour, you've got all the small talk that's all gone. You've got nothing but time to self reflect on how you've felt about stuff as a kid, or how you think your own children are really feeling about something, or how you're feeling about something in life, what's troubling you. So I think long walks where you don't have to look at the person as well, is super important. I think a lot of people will will know that for some reason they just really connect well on a walk with their partner, or like in the car driving along, there's even with my partner now like we might not especially during lockdown, we might not have spoken properly. Fades go for a walk blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, or she's like, why didn't you tell me this stuff?

9:57 Like I had no idea. It's not I don't know whether it's in all blows, but it's not in us to open up so easily. But yeah, we've got to build trust for for blokes, we have to prove that you're a trustworthy person. And that's what I love r Uokda as a really good reminder for for blokes, for anyone really to check in on your mates, but don't just ask them how they're going on that day, Like especially to a stranger. They they especially for a guy, they weren't they won't open up. But yeah, you've got to You've got to build that trust over time. And that's really important. Yes, very And I think the other important point that you made then for women listening is don't expect your partners to be open and sharing and vulnerable every single day.

10:38 That's never going to happen. Yeah, there was. There was one of the things I was talking to my friend and Rachiano about this. She was really on me about it. See what women to help we men have already taken so much from us. I'm like, okay, I'm just saying that you were better at I'm giving you a compliment. Women are better at thoughts, feelings. Sharing just help help help us a little bit. We like being told stuff, you know, I mean, what to do, but we like being told how to make something better. Rob, we talked about stereotypical masculinity and this topic of toxic masculinity, which is a term, as you point out very rightly in the book, that really rubs a lot of men the wrong way. That hold just the concept of toxic masculinity. When does masculinity become toxic?

11:24 I think it's when the banter with mates in that sort of pack mentality becomes aggressive towards women or towards a different subject. I think that's when it becomes toxic. And if no one is there calling it out, and that's when it comes from the blokes that they need to be like, oh, actually this is a bit too far. Yeah, but I think it's so important to still you need your masculinity. You need it to in case something goes wrong in an emergency. You need anger anger is still an emotion that we're still coming to terms with it. If you just bottle it up, it'll come out in horrible places. Call sometimes anger toxic masculating, Well, maybe it's not. You just haven't worked out how to use that emotion.

12:06 And for blogs that refuse to tap into maybe their sadness, maybe that will come out in anger. So that's that's really that's really important to just work out what that is for you. But I think everyone knows what the toxic stuff is. It's sexism, it's misogyny. It's just a lack of awareness, a lack of awareness of your own privilege or a lack of a lack of awareness of your own power in the room or on the street late at night. That's that's something that's really important for I learned this men's circle that I sat in, like blokes sitting around going, you know what I do? I just across the road. Yeah I love that. Yeah, even the simple gesture of crossing the road. And some blogs go, why do I have to do that?

12:49 It's because you're not aware of the power that you've got. That's all it is. And also, if someone is saying that men are horrible people like we're not all horrible, Like that's not for you. Then it's not just let that go. And that's once again it's blokes being ignorant and not not have done any kind of self reflection knowing that it's not for them, and that's okay. It's like a TVA comes on and go, this is crap. It's not for you. It's just change the channel. It's not for you. You don't need to be angry or upset about this. Yeah, you're right. It does get some men really defensive, though, doesn't it. It's like we're not saying that men are toxic. We're saying that there are certain stereotypically masculine qualities that take them to the extreme, you know. And as you said, then it's that lack of willingness to reflect, and there's digging your heels in and defending and justifying behaviors that are not okay.

13:41 Yeah, not okay, that's just kind of make it worse. You just you're then doing exactly the thing that we're talking about. So I would suggest, so, as I said, self reflect, ask you mates these questions. Speak to your parents, your brother's sister, or close friends or even your partner like, I don't want to lose you don't want to lose masculinity, you know for some for some couples that you know, that's that's where there's where there's a certain spark, there's a danger, there's a whatever that is if we if we beat that out of men just to not be masculine at all, then I think that's really really dangerous. And I think Tyson Younger Porter talks about it. The blokes that go too far into down that down that down that road, with the in cells and the men going their own way who are completely sort of anti women.

14:28 That was a really fascinating chat throughout the book. I found that really fascinating in your book too, that conversation about in cells. I think I maybe didn't fully really understand what that term meant. Do you just want to quickly explain what that what that is for listeners? Yeah, involuntary celibate, so feeling that they've been shunned by women, so okay, and then just because of the Facebook or the social media algorithm, everyone has a place now. Everyone is looking for that place to belong and they've found other similar men who feel hard done by or by the world of women, which is just it just absolutely blows my mind. But anyway, I wish those blokes well and I hope that they find a way out of that, that they find the kindness within their own hearts and the people around them.

15:19 Yeah, I fear for those guys. It's terrifying to be honest, and it's infuriating as a woman. It's the sense of entitlement that makes my blood boil, and to be honest, just a little example of this, and my daughter gets so frustrated. I've got a sixteen year old daughter. So we're in a new country. We've just moved to London. She's making friends, she's going to college over here. She doesn't have to go to college here because she's doing Ozzie school still, but she wanted to go out and make friends, and so she's meeting boys. And she has this blonde, dozzy girl over here in the UK, and she's attracting some male attention. And that's all fine, but there's this one boy who's been really, like, really quite upfront with how much he likes her and comes and sits next to her. He has actually come out and said to her, am I trying too hard?

16:06 Are you not really interested? And she says, yeah, you are, and no, I'm not. Like she's quite direct about it. I sometimes feel like, you know, like stand up for yourself. But she's pretty good like that. But this kid's she's this is a long story, but she's actually really good friends with this guy's mate. And so one day they've been at the cafeteria and she went to get up to leave and she hugged her friend, and this other kid, the one who really likes her, said, where's my hug and she just said, well, there's not one, and she left. And he messaged her the next day and said, by the way, that was really rude. I really don't like the fact that you didn't hug me, and you really hurt my feelings. And I was furious about this. I'm trying to explain to my daughter that this is just a micro version of this male entitlement, that you need to change your behavior and show affection to him because you made him feel bad. I just and she says, oh my god, mummy, you're overreacting everything, that everything's a slippery slope and to domestic violence or you know, I.

17:13 Can I also interject, is it also possible, and I'm sure you thought about this as well, that blokes who also we've talked about, are not very good at communicating. The only way that he felt was necessary to communicate his feelings was through a text message because he felt embarrassed to say that he felt hurt. So but also, if you're not going to get. A hug, you're not going to get a hug, I would suggest, and I'm no therapist at all here, having the conversation is so much better than having a text message. Trying to talk about thoughts and feelings through text message is just it's just I've no idea how people do this. They have breakups, they have conversations like with this is for bantering. It's not for long form kind of in depth, especially when we're talking about emotions and tone and all those sorts of things. I feel sorry for both, for both parties in this situation. But let's hope he's just one of the guys is go, well, I feel really hurt, Like it's like I feel so strongly about you, but you feel nothing for me. If it was around the other way, how does that look as well? How does that look if it is around the other.

18:14 Yeah, true. That is true, because I go straight to, oh my god, you're not entitled to a woman showing your affection. Look, you know, he was possibly just her at least, as I said, at least he's a voiced it that he could have just. Said nothing and then just sat it. Set it on the rage, so on the resentment. True, that is a good point. He did in express it, and she just replied and said, I'm sorry you felt like that way. Like I hug people who I'm really close to and we're not really close. So that was the end of that. But yeah, she's she's doing well. I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe so that you get notified when you app's drop and head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review. That's can we talk about rob you Actually we've probably already touched on this too, but the idea that toxic masculinity, Like I'm just talking about how I feel as a woman on the receiving it and how that impacts women and children, But toxic masculinity is really harmful to men as well.

19:32 And I think this is the point right that we need to be which You've done a great job in this book, and people like Tommy Hawkin are doing as well, but helping men to understand that toxic masculinity isn't a a criticism of men, it actually is harmful to men as much as it is. Yeah, we're trying to live up to certain stereotypes. I talk about how it sort of infiltrates our WhatsApp groups with blokes they're trying to outblock each other. Sometimes that can become problematic or dangerous. Once again, trying to message sort of thoughts and feelings through message is also kind of hard to get tone right as well. Some people might misread it. So yeah, I think it's dangerous in that sense, but also dangerous if, yeah, you're trying to live up to this sort of if you're not the alpha person, maybe I should be more.

20:22 Alpha, maybe I should be more blokey. You don't have to be like whatever it is, whatever the dynamic is, find the things that you have more in common. But yeah, it is it can be dangerous and a slippery slope for some blokes who are trying to be something that they're not. So just I would say, and it just comes from doing the work that introspection which I talked about, or self reflection. I think the earlier that you can do that, the easier it becomes. And also just to divoice your thoughts and feelings to your friends. I think I get to it later in life. I think we all get to self worth and we get to sort of I think your brain maybe just develops ter on in life because the whole time through primary school, high school.

21:03 Got to fit in, got to fit in, gotta fit in, got to fit in. I don't know why that is, whether it's the way the schools are just structured, the way the classes, or the way education system is structured. It doesn't really for the outliers of the elite kids. And I don't mean elite because you're rich and stuff. I just mean elite because you've worked, you've worked out who it is that you want to be, you know, for the next ten years or so, they found a lot easier to get ahead. But I don't know, maybe I just didn't put enough work in. And I think that's what I talk about throughout the book, wasn't surrounded with an environment where introspection was valued or wasn't talked about a lot in order to find out who I was and you know where I was going. Luckily, for me, I kept surrounding myself with just kind, lovely people.

21:50 I never really got I never went down a completely dark, slippery slope. I had older brothers and had good people around me to sort of go, oh, those people are probably a bit maybe pull your. Head in a bit, you know. Yeah, And you talk about that in the book as well, that importance of positive role models, positive male role models, and also this idea of mentors and this idea of eldership which is kind of missing now. And it really wasn't until you said it in the book that I thought about it. That it's true that a lot of young people are taking their cues or getting their life advice from other young people who don't necessarily have the life experience to share. But I think also the sad thing is there's this whole like okay, boomer attitude that is very dismissive of what older people might have to share, right, Like we just dismissed them as being oh well, I say, we I'm probably getting closer to that generation. But you know, like young people are very dismissive of older people. What's your thoughts about that and how we get around that.

22:53 That was a really great chat with Asha Pacman, who is from this Worry Within sort of Men's Circle kind of thing, which is a lot about ancient mythology. Some of the texts that he's sent me that I've read through, especially even even now, it's like, oh, there's some really good wisdom in there. You know, there's about stoicism and also about vulnerability. But in old, old, old, ancient texts. You know, I think it is dangerous to get all your life advice from just life coaches on Instagram and memes. That come through. Yeah, yeah, it is worth talking to. I mean, how much did you learn from watching five year olds for old people's homes for five year olds? You know, old people's homes for teenagers, like brilliant shows.

23:35 You know, like, I'm sure they did everything a bit differently, but there is wisdom in that. And not every not every old person, and not every boomer is going to be a horrible boom just have no idea, but like there's gonna be lots of wisdom there you've but it doesn't just come at you like on an algorithm, like through your phone. You still need to do the work. There's still people, there's still you know, research papers, there's still articles of like authors and like incredible writers that have have lived before before us that you can find some really you know, some gems. And it could be from an uncle or an auntie or a role model. So I'll just get back to the Yeah, the importance of the sort of male role models, not just male role models, they're non gendered or female role models in your in your in your life as growing up as a kid, you need them all the stuff. I mean, I am not a parent, but all the stuff that I have read from like Stephen Bidolf and all his teachings and all the research I did, Like, parents are meant to keep you alive, and the people around them are the ones to inspire them. You could also inspire them as well, but like that's the role models and those mentors that really give them the the other stuff, you know, the flare, the magic.

24:46 The parents just got to keep them alive. It's I think I think parents are trying to do so much and they're not not utilizing the village. But yeah, it is important, especially for boys to see male sort of role models. But unfortunately, what happens for blokes over the years, especially in what our research in this book, is their friendships fall by the wayside and end up just hanging out with their wives friends or their girlfriend's friends and that's their friends. Then they don't put the effort into to have those catch ups, and I think it's because they never had those really deep, meaningful conversations which connected them deeper. Yeah, I think what I'm trying to get at throughout the book is have those chats, have those deep, vulnerable open chats. So therefore your friendships are deeper that you can share, you know, deeper things in order to I don't know, make your friendship stronger, last longer.

25:43 I think the other thing, you know, going back to that okay boomer thing, is the ability to be open to connecting with another person who maybe doesn't believe all the exact same things that we believe about something. I think that's another negative kind of consequence of social media and the algorithm, which just forces us all into these echo chambers where we're just constantly hearing that our own opinions fed back to us and reinforced, and that's how those in cell groups get so dangerous as well too. Right, So we seem to have, you know, lost the ability to be able to connect with people and be open to hearing a diverse range of opinions. We don't have to agree with everybody, but it doesn't mean people don't have something of value to share that we could learn from.

26:28 You should definitely like this whole US versus then the thing that's coming through from America, especially the last ten to twenty years. This red states, Blue states. Like, it's this study that I read about was like a world study done of and I'm going to butcher this, but basically the gist of it is, Look, if you want research, it's in the book. If you want me to remember research, it's not in my head. Yeah, yeah, you sound like me. I'm like, oh, it's like, this is the gist of it. Don't ask me that were the details. So we have basically, we have like a study out of random people from across the world, socioeconomic differences, right, different diversities, and we all, like ninety six percent of us want the same thing, right, and when I say ninety six percent of us. I meant, out of all the things that were on the list, ninety six percent of those people of the people just went, yeah, we would need shelter, we need food, we need some money for holiday, we need we want to care for our families.

27:23 Like we all want the same thing, but we're all just going about it a slightly different way. That's the But if you just break it down to what are the things that we actually want, Like even I talk about the pandemic, people getting super angry, splitting up friendship groups, and people getting vaccinated not vaccinated. I was like, look, the science says we need eighty percent of the population to make it work. Twenty percent don't need to if they choose not to, that's okay. And do you know why, Because they want safety for their family and they want safety for their friends. What are the people who want vaccinated? They want safety for their friends, they want safety for the fact like that they're both seeing the greater good, but in just a different way. And it's a really strange way to look at it. But I just kept saying, it's fine if this is not for you, this is not for you, And I can't help you change your mind, other than to show you some statistics and all that sort of stuff and then they'll find their own statistics. Anyway, as a whole, we just we definitely, I think majority of the people want the same thing.

28:23 You know. The research also indicates that the best way to get somebody on board with an opinion is to probably just hear their you know, like this whole going head to head and arguing with somebody only forces people to dig their heels in anyway, So that's a lose lose for everybody. Yeah, we need to sit. We need to sit, We need to listen, we need to sit with the opposite side of the argument. We've lost critical thought, We've lost the art of. Debate with our fellow man woman person, and I think that's severely lacking. During the two years of the pandemic, you are a person who works in the entertainment industry who pretty much lost your income as well as obviously being all of the other stuff that goes along with the pandemic and lockdowns, and you lost two friends. What was the impact of that on your mental health?

29:10 It wasn't great. I mean, we will, we will have to pivot. I ended up working as a creative consultant for a for an online banking company. That was kind of interesting for me to work at how the business world works. But I was still creating content, still trying to write some fun songs that I thought were some sort of parody kind of fun songs. Just I think as artists we will always find our light. I did find it interesting though there was no benefit concept for the artists. Whenever there's a flood or a fire or that's the artists that will always donate their time for charity. Or for the people.

29:50 I was like, Oh, I'm hoping this year everyone donates to support ACT, which which definitely helped a lot of artists through the last couple of years. Yeah, I was fortunate enough to still do some zoom gigs and to get through. My partner was working full time, so we were okay. And I also had been saving up the pennies, you know, squirreling away some nuts for the rainy day. As my dad taught me many years ago. You know, you never know when, especially as an artist, when the next gig is and luckily for me, i'd squirreled some stuff away. So it was pretty devastating. Also, to hear from from Scomo that we were non essential was just really heartbreaking throughout that time, Like, oh, because everyone's listening to music and watching movies at home, that's us.

30:40 That's that's very I feel like it's very essential. And that was the thing about the crazy two years that we all went through, wasn't it. I think many many people experienced mental health struggles for the first time in their life. For starters, we're not meant to be alone. We're not meant to be alone. And people who are struggling for the first time in their life, particularly if you're a person who's not used to talking, hasn't had that practice at talking and sharing and asking for help, then you're especially at risk. You know. Not that asking for help and talking is necessarily guarantee that you'll be all right, but you'll certainly hopefully, it's that muscle you've got to build, right.

31:22 Absolutely, And for a lot of people who were actually alone during that time, I feel so dreadfully horrible for and so thankful that we have the services that we have in this country, whether it's Lifeline, just and Beyond Blue and all the Black Dog Institute, and there's so many great services that even through Hello Sunday Morning, that are doing, Like how great that we have those services available. I found it strange during the pandemic seeing some of the newspapers like, well, it's shocking that some of the call the call rates have gone up at Lifeline, Like yeah, because that's the number that you put on the screen, How great, how great that the people are using the service.

32:06 But they've they've spun it in a negative way, like more people using them, like yeah, it's the number that comes up on the screen and every time that they talk about on the ABC on any on any network, and you're. Of course it's going up. Great, how great that they're using the service, and how great that we have the service. And anyway, I've always found that so strange to put a negative spinning it when it already it's got a negative kind of thing, which I think we're getting past it. It's social change, whether it's mental health. And it used to be like just general fitness, like we have to have a whole life be in it thing many many years ago because we were just become a bit fat. So like now we're like, all right, let's get fit, not just with our bodies, but with our with our minds.

32:51 I think man Gus Wallen is right at the forefront of that as well. Yeah, good before you go. So you're also talk in the book about your experience of having worked with a psychologist, and I think you also make reference to even not you, but I think a friend of yours who uses the services of a life coach. What would be your advice. We do have men listening to this podcast, So if anybody's listening and thinking, oh, yeah, you know, maybe I should take this on board and do something, what's your advice to men listening about or your experience? I guess about talking to a psychologist. It's kind of like a coach. They're kind of like a coach of the footy team, or they're kind of like a hairdresser or And I say that not because of their skill set, but I just mean the fact that they might not be the one for you. Like you might not have liked You're under sixteen footy coach, but you really like Tor Runner eighteen footy coach. It's try them out. Don't just go to one and go well, it didn't work, they were crap hated it. They didn't get me. Also, try and find one that does zoom. Just try and fit it in with your life. A lot of them moving to Teleyhealth now so you can do this kind of chat, so you can sit up on the couch or like I've had chats with my psych driving the car. I'm like, mate, I'm out an appointment all day, it went late. Can we just do it on the phone. He's like, yeah, just do on the phone. So I'm driving the car having a chat, Like I thought that was amazing. So he's still taking in all this stuff that I'm saying is right.

34:12 I'm down. There's something about go for a walk. See if one of them will go for a walk with you. I don't they do pykes do that walk and talk therapy. It's a thing for blokes. It'll be a life change. It'll be an absolute life change because you have to look at the person staring at you, judging you. I think this will be an absolute game change if more psychs can can can realize that. But yeah, find one that works for you. There are numerous. Unfortunately, there is a wait list at the moment, but I know that they're working towards that, trying to work out the best way to facilitate that within the psych realm of humans. I don't know what they're called, there's a governing body for them. I would highly recommend, yeah, just just giving it a go I mean what, You've got nothing, nothing else to lose, other than you're going to learn a lot of things about yourself, probably that don't like, which is good. But then you realize I should stop judging myself for those things that I don't like, acknowledge them, but I like, well, how can I either improve them? But also they don't define me wholly? And then you realize what are the things I do love about myself? And then you start going, oh, I love myself and not on a I'm up myself, But oh I need to love myself so I can love my partner, so I can love my friends better. That's the most important, because we.

35:29 Don't know how to we don't know how to do it. We don't know how to love ourselves properly. That is really great advice. I would add too that if you know of a psych like if somebody, if your friend is seeing somebody and they said, this person's really good, you can take the name of that person to your gp. You don't have to go with the psych that the GP recommends. In fact, GPS love it if you bring a name for them. And exactly as you said, Rob, if you don't click, if you don't gel with the first person that you meet, it's totally fine to go and find somebody else, because I think too many people like might have one session and I mean, you know, hang in there, give it a go. But if you really like this is not for me, then don't write off the whole thing because of one person that you don't click with. I've had many I was practicing therapy in Australia obviously now can't in the UK, but I had many clients come to me who had been to other pikes first and didn't click and then came to see me. And I'm equally I'm pretty sure that probably some people saw me and then went off and found somebody else, And there's no hard feelings about that.

36:28 Everybody's got to find the person that they deal with. So great advice. Thank you, Rob, really love the book. Congratulations and thank you so much for your time today. Thank you so much for having me on the show. It's a really good podcast and you do a great work. That's Cool. Milsey's book is called Putting On a Show. It's available now in all good bookstores. If you love listening to Crapit and have you, please do us a favor and subscribe, leave a five star rating and review, and come and follow me on socials to keep up with everything that I'm I'm doing. I'm cast done underscore XO, usually on Instagram and TikTok. I cannot wait to catch you in the next episode of Crapy to happy listener,