How to Deal with Difficult People

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This is Crappy to Happy and I am your host, Cass Dunn.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, a mindfulness meditation teacher and of course

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author of the Crappy to Happy Books.

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In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people

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who are experts in their field and who have something of value to share that will help

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you feel less crappy and more happy.

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Hello, welcome back to Crappy the Happy.

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What a time.

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It has been a while and I'm pretty sure I said that last time

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I put out a podcast because it had been a while then and I told you that I had been evicted,

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that was my excuse and that it had been really difficult and really stressful and it has

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continued to be really difficult and really stressful, hence the no podcast.

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In fact, hence the not much of anything apart from trying to sell my house so that I can

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buy the house that we're renting so that we are not homeless and so we don't have to move.

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Now before I get into the topic today, happy to report, sold the house.

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It was a more complicated process than it needed to be.

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It took, I mean it wasn't a long time but it definitely took longer than we had hoped and

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so it was really stressful and it's done now so we're just still in the process of doing

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what we need to do to buy the house here.

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So hopefully in a few weeks I will be completely out of the woods during the last couple of

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months while I have been dealing with this issue.

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I have met parts of myself that I have not been in contact with for a while.

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I have been pushed to the limits, obviously tired, obviously stressed and dealing with people

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in this country and in Australia who have made things difficult.

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The reason that I wanted to call this episode "How to deal with arseholes" is because I was

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at one point, I was just out, I was walking my dogs and I was thinking, "God, there's some

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lessons in this process to be shared once I'm out the other side of it."

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And the first one is, "What do you do when you're dealing with dickheads who just want

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to make things more difficult than they need to be?"

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And so here we are, that is the topic because that is what I have had to do.

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That's probably a bit disparaging, I shouldn't call people arseholes but you know what,

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it's the shoe fits.

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If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

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It certainly felt like people were being obstructive and causing problems, causing conflict, making

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things more difficult than they needed to be and I found myself being really reactive,

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emotionally reactive, obviously under pressure, under stress.

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Now I'm not a person who invites conflict, I'm not a person who goes looking for trouble,

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I'm not a person who lives in kind of victim mode and feels like everything has to go my

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way all the time.

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You know, there are some people, there are some personalities who, it's almost like they

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attract conflict, it's almost like they love the drama of it or for whatever reason,

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they have difficulty with self-regulation and you know, I'm a psychologist, I can think of

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all the reasons why some people tend to perpetually be in conflict.

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I'm just saying that I'm not that person, I'm pretty easy going most of the time.

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I'll avoid conflict, I will not make something into a problem if it doesn't need to be a problem.

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which is not to say that I will roll over and be, you know, treated like an idiot but,

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you know, I pretty much can let the small things slide.

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This was a period of not letting things slide, I found myself reacting, sending emails

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that I probably shouldn't have sent, feeling really annoyed and angry with people and that

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probably sounds very vague, I should probably be more specific what the hell, they're probably

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not listening.

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If they are, well, it's the truth, we have tenants in our house in Australia and so obviously

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they were upset by having the house sold because it wasn't our plan to sell the house and

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they had only recently moved in and they were really settled, they wanted to stay, of

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course and it was upsetting to them.

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Now bear in mind that they've got a 12 month lease, like nobody can force them to move out

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of the house.

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For all we knew, an investor might buy the house, they may not have to move out of the house, but

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even if they did have to, like they're still getting a full 12 months, nobody's going to

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make them move, nobody's going to raise their rent.

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So they're pretty secure for the time being us selling the house in the short term was

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really just an inconvenience having to have inspections and things like that.

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I've been a tenant in houses that have been sold, I know it's inconvenient and as I said,

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it wasn't what we had planned, but we reached a point where our tenants were like not allowing

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us to have open homes, they were just kind of digging their heels in about a few things.

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And then they're obviously, because it's a rental we have a property manager and because

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we're selling, we have a sales agent and normally in that situation we would use the same

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agent, right?

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It always makes sense to have the same property manager and sales agent, but we didn't,

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we had a different sales agency to the property management.

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Now I don't know if that had anything to do with things, it certainly makes things more

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difficult in terms of the communication channels that you have to go through to get anything

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done, but there turned out to be some conflict.

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So the point of the podcast is not to talk about who did what.

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All I'm saying is that there was a lot of different personalities here and a lot of different

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people in different positions and then me on the other side of the world, who is the person

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who has got the most at stake in this scenario, having to deal with all of this conflict between

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these personalities and the outcome being that I wasn't getting my house sold, and that

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was pretty significant to me, like fairly consequential to me.

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And then of course on this side, we have got a landlord who wants us to buy the house

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and I was feeling pressure to get our house sold quickly and I was trying to do that,

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but I was dealing with all of these problems in Australia and then having to report back

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to this guy about delays with selling the house when all of that was out of my control.

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So let's just say tensions were running quite high.

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There was a lot of, there was a lot of tension all over the place and I found myself getting

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angry and reactive and not being my best self.

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Let's just say that.

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So I thought it might be useful for me to share with you what I do and what I have been doing,

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what I had to do in order to get through this period and particularly dealing with people

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when I feel like that people are being difficult or obstructive or when I have tension with somebody.

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Because I was actively having to do this and I thought this is useful, I should share this

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because somebody else might find this useful to have that dealing with an arsehole.

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So here are my five things.

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I guess the first thing that I just observed about myself before I get into the actual tools,

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I guess the first thing that I observed about myself was that this was really the fight

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response.

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I was in fight mode, not looking for trouble for the sake of it, but the literal threat response

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when you are feeling threatened like there is something vital at stake or something of real

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value is being threatened and fight mode kicked in.

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Like it was like my back was against the wall and I was coming out swinging.

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And so just to observe that was useful.

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You know, like it's like, oh this is just this instinctive threat response revving me up

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because this is important.

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And that's what was really at the front of my mind was this is important and that's why

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I was so angry is because I felt like.. now my perception was that other people's pettiness

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and other people being inconvenienced was causing them to behave in ways that could very

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literally have cost me and my family the opportunity to buy the house that we want to buy.

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It could have really significantly impacted us if we didn't get the house sold and we couldn't

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buy this house.

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You might think that's a first world problem, but there's nothing else to rent in this price

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range.

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We would have been spending an extra thousand pounds a month, which two thousand Australian

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dollars a month to rent anything similar.

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And also we are in a community where like I said in the last episode where we feel really

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connected and and that means something like we are on the other side of the world.

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We're away from our family and friends when you're that far away from everything familiar

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from your home then the community that we have established is it's important.

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It's just it's not just oh we've got nice neighbours so we don't want to move like this is our community

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and it's all we've got this far away.

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So when these things were threatened then I really was angry that somebody else could potentially

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obstruct like like could get in the way and have a major negative like major ramifications

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for my family because they were inconvenienced by our house being sold.

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That's what made me angry.

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Like it was what was at stake and it occurred to me that sometimes we get angry over far

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less important things and sometimes we can find ourselves getting reactive when there

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is not so much at stake and just the importance of keeping things in perspective.

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You know if we're finding ourselves getting worked up and reactive and creating conflict

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and tension over something that's less important then maybe we need to consider whether we really

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need to do that.

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Is it really worth the tension and the conflict but also I know for myself if I'm reacting to

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things that are less important it's usually a sign that I'm already a bit stressed.

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I'm already pushed to my limit so that can be a sign to maybe take a break, take a breath

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and calm things down a bit which you should do anyway but I think particularly if you find

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yourself reacting to small things.

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Whereas this was a big thing like I felt kind of justified this was a big thing.

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There was a lot at stake.

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So what did I do?

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How do I manage myself when I'm feeling angry and frustrated?

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First thing is as I've said before and a reminder for you if you've heard me say this before

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if I'm angry at somebody else, if I'm feeling really pointing the finger at somebody else

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I always ask myself where am I angry with myself?

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Where is my responsibility?

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And that is not about me taking all the blame, blaming myself.

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That is about me keeping a balanced perspective and being a little bit less self-righteous and

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kind of on my high horse on my moral high ground.

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Where I'm angry with myself is usually I have not been clear in my communication.

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I have this is a big one, not listened to my gut.

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I've had a gut feeling about something and I've ignored it and I've ended up in a situation

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or dealing with a person and it's gone badly and I knew I knew I knew from the beginning.

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So I've just taken some responsibility for that and it could be that I've just been letting

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something slide for too long not being really clear about boundaries and then it's got

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out of hand and I've felt like I've been really taken advantage of in some way.

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So it's just my go to first step.

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I always will just ask what is my responsibility?

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Just to bring me down a little bit from that very blamey, finger pointing self-righteous

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kind of position that is easy to get into.

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It shifts perspective a little bit.

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The second thing that I find really important and useful is to ask myself what is driving

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their behaviour.

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I can be very justified in my behaviour.

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I know my perspective.

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I know what's at stake for me.

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I know my position, right?

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I am very clear about all that and we're all very clear about our own position, our own

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circumstances, our own perspective, very clear.

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And then we make a lot of assumptions or we're not so clear about what's going on for

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the other person.

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We might think we know.

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Like I think other people are just being petty dickheads, but I don't know what's going

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on for that person.

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So this was something that I learned.

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It was something that a lecturer said way, way back when I was doing my Masters in Coaching

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Psychology.

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It was about workplace conflict.

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It has stuck with me for all of these years and the principle is that everybody is acting

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to meet their own needs.

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Nobody wakes up in the morning and thinks how can I make Cass’s life more difficult today.

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They don't.

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People are acting to get their own needs met.

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They've got their own perspective, their own problems or in their own little bubble.

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And sometimes if somebody is being difficult or obstructive, the useful question to ask

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is what is going on for them?

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What is their need?

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What are they afraid of?

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What's being threatened for them?

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What is that stake for them?

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I know what's at stake for me and I'm acting on that and I'm just assuming that this person

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is getting in my way.

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But if I can have the presence of mind to consider what is at stake for them, I don't

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have to agree with it.

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You know, I'm only making it up anyway, I’m only assuming.

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But I don't have to suddenly believe that their issue is as important as mine or that their

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needs override mine, it's not about that.

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It's just extending a little bit of curiosity and kindness to remind myself that where I

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think they're just being arseholes, maybe there's something going on for them that I don't know

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about.

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It helps me to diffuse some of that tension and some of that anger.

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If I can consider that.

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Also, if you are able to consider that, then sometimes that means that you're able to do

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something differently instead of just digging your heels and being in battle with somebody

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and fighting for your position, sometimes that means that you can actually step back and

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consider what could you do differently that might accommodate them a little more so

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that they can get their needs met so that they can be less obstructive so that you can

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get your needs met.

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How can you work with them in a way that comes them down, comes down their threat response

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so that they are more inclined to work with you to get your needs met.

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So that's a win-win.

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So where I'm out of blame, what's going on for them, what's their needs?

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Now, the third thing that I can't say that I have had to do a lot, not in this kind of

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situation, but what I would say is a fairly useful rule of thumb and what I did do in

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this situation is pick up the phone.

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So much of our conflict and these difficult conversations happen over email and text because

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there's no tone and if you're already feeling stressed wound up, you can interpret tone.

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Like you can interpret tone that isn't there, you can interpret words on a page in a way

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that is not how those words were intended.

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It's just people are busy and rushed and people are firing off emails or text messages

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and when there is a bit of conflict or tension and in a situation where people are kind of

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putting things in writing because they want to document it, they said this and they did

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the right thing and they didn't do anything wrong, then it can feel very, almost like solicitors

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let us, you know, it can feel very kind of conflictual.

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Like it doesn't feel human and friendly and personable and like let's just figure this

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out.

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So I picked up the phone on one occasion, I picked up the phone and had a conversation and

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really just kind of tried to restore that relationship which was just getting into an area where

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it didn't need to be as like tense like it was.

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And again, everybody in this situation was acting to get their needs met.

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Everybody is doing what they need to do to protect their own position and some of this

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stuff was legal, like some people did have a position to protect.

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Just how all these things were butting up against each other, you know, throwing some miscommunication

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and some people not doing the right thing and then people getting upset and just escalated

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to a point where it was out of control.

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So if you can or if it's appropriate, then sometimes taking the communication offline

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and having an actual human conversation is the best thing that you can do and we don't

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do enough of it these days, do we because we're all on our phone, sending texts and sending

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emails and sending WhatsApp's and human to human communication.

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Or, you know, face to face but that was a bit tricky when I'm on the other side of the

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world.

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So phone call was the next best thing.

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So if you're in a conflict with somebody by email or by text, could you pick

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up the phone and have a conversation?

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That's the question.

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And following on from that, the fourth thing that I had to do, wow, there's been a lot.

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The fourth thing that I had to do was not had to do, but what I chose to do was there was

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an occasion when I sent an email and it was, it’s not that it was really rude but it was definitely

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a bit curt.

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It was probably a little, it was out of character, even my husband who was copied in said

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it was a little out of character,

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It wasn't really like you and it definitely wasn't like me.

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Like it was short.

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It was quite not friendly.

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And I apologised.

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So the next day I just sent a follow up email.

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I said I apologizs for the tone of my email.

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I sent it quickly.

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I was feeling under pressure and I should have taken a breath.

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I should have waited until I had some more time and I should have taken a pause before

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I just responded quickly and sent an email that was probably out of character.

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I didn't say that.

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All I said was basically I apologise for the tone of my email.

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I was under pressure.

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You got me at a bad moment.

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Anyway, I just continued on with like here's the stuff that you asked for, here's where

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it's at or whatever.

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And it was fine and he appreciated it and we got on with it.

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And so I think if you can, if you know that you've reacted badly, that you've said something

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or done something in the heat of the moment that is not like you, whether you feel like

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it was justified or not, you know, like it's the qualities that you want to bring

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to the situation.

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So apologising if you behave in a way that is out of character or not expressing, not being

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the best version of yourself.

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And I would say amongst all of this, like I've said a lot of things about like apologising

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and picking up the phone and like considering the other person's perspective and asking where

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I'm to blame and I just want to reiterate that none of this is to say that it's about being

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a pushover, about rolling over and letting everybody take advantage of you.

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You absolutely should stand your ground and I did.

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I have stood my ground.

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I have bloody dug my heels and stood my ground, held my position, you know, refused to let

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people just get away with stuff.

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You do have to protect yourself.

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You do have to stand your ground and I did have to stand my ground and I definitely was

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protecting my own interests.

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It's about how you do it.

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It's about, you know, you can assert yourself and hold your ground without being unkind

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without creating tension or conflict unnecessarily.

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It's just the manner in which you do it.

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You know, it's the values that you bring.

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It's the qualities and the characteristics that you choose to embody even in the face of

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adversity, even when under stress and clearly you're not going to get it right all the time.

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Clearly I did not either.

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But it's always coming back to who do I want to be, like how do I want to be, even under

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pressure.

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I don't want to be that.

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I don't want to be an arsehole.

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I want to be reasonable and I want to be fair, you know.

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Kind.

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Last but not least, my backstop.

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I wouldn't actually say it's my backstop because it's not always like a last resort.

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But one thing that I always do in a difficult, stressful situation with things are uncertain.

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I have no control so much as out of my hands is meditate and just send good vibes.

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And I feel like there is nothing I can do or I've done everything that's in my power and

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the outcome is not in my hands, which is a really difficult, uncomfortable place to be

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especially when so much is at stake.

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Then I will bring the person to mind or the situation to mind and just imagine it turning

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out well.

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Just visualising positive outcomes.

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If it's a person who's pissing me off, I will just send them calm, send them friendliness,

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send them love and light, send them peace.

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And again, like acknowledging that we've got stuff going on for them and if I can just

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send them some good vibes, send them some peace, then maybe that will help them.

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And maybe it will and maybe it won't but it makes me feel like I'm at least doing something

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when there's nothing else that I can do.

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Will it change the outcome?

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Maybe not.

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Part of me thinks maybe it will because you know I'm into the manifesting and I'm into

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the visualising the outcomes that you want.

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But what it definitely does do is it definitely gets me out of my head and the stewing and

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the frustration and the anger and the feeling of powerlessness.

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There's nothing worse than the feeling of powerlessness.

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That feeling that your fate is in somebody else's hands.

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That is such an awful, vulnerable position, which is clearly what I was reacting the

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way I was.

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It's an awful position to be in.

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And for me, sitting and meditating and just imagining that my visualisation might have

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some influence over the outcome makes me feel like I claw back just a little bit of some

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sense of control over the outcome.

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Maybe, maybe not, but it certainly gets me out of the negativity, it gets me out of the

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stewing and the stress and the worry momentarily.

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And I'd much rather spend my time focusing on a positive outcome than stewing in the uncertainty

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and the anxiety of the worst case scenario.

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So that is something that I'll always do as well.

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And especially if there's nothing else I can do.

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Then I'll always default back to visualise, send light, imagine a positive outcome.

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Like I said last time, I know this is just the stuff that I've been going through but

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like, it feels like there's a lot going on.

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There's a lot going on with the planets, Donald Trump's bombing everybody.

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There's a lot.

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There's chaos and conflict kind of everywhere and everybody that I talk to has said that

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they've been having a difficult challenging time.

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So I hope that by me sharing my experience and some of the ways that I have found helpful

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to deal with that, that if you are going through something similar or that you'll remember

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this in the future

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if you're going through something similar and if you happen to be going through something

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similar now, then I hope that there's something there that is helpful and always, always remembering

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that this too shall pass.

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It is the fundamental law of Buddhism.

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The basis of Buddhist philosophy and psychology is impermanence.

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It's that everything changes.

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Whether it's good or it's bad, it is temporary.

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It's only a matter of time before something changes.

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So sometimes we just have to hang in there and wait for it to pass.

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So I am back.

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I am 100% focused now on my Beyond Confident.

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Online program, if you're interested in cultivating self-confidence, overcoming imposter syndrome,

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particularly if you're a small business owner, entrepreneur, solid printer, you'll be hearing

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a lot more from me about that.

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I will catch you next week for another fabulous episode of Crappy to Happy.

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[Music]