How to Deal with Difficult People

0:00 This is Crappy to Happy and I am your host, Cass Dunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, a mindfulness meditation teacher and of course author of the Crappy to Happy Books. In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field and who have something of value to share that will help you feel less crappy and more happy. Hello, welcome back to Crappy the Happy.

0:41 What a time. It has been a while and I'm pretty sure I said that last time I put out a podcast because it had been a while then and I told you that I had been evicted, that was my excuse and that it had been really difficult and really stressful and it has continued to be really difficult and really stressful, hence the no podcast. In fact, hence the not much of anything apart from trying to sell my house so that I can buy the house that we're renting so that we are not homeless and so we don't have to move. Now before I get into the topic today, happy to report, sold the house.

1:24 It was a more complicated process than it needed to be. It took, I mean it wasn't a long time but it definitely took longer than we had hoped and so it was really stressful and it's done now so we're just still in the process of doing what we need to do to buy the house here. So hopefully in a few weeks I will be completely out of the woods during the last couple of months while I have been dealing with this issue. I have met parts of myself that I have not been in contact with for a while. I have been pushed to the limits, obviously tired, obviously stressed and dealing with people in this country and in Australia who have made things difficult.

2:14 The reason that I wanted to call this episode "How to deal with arseholes" is because I was at one point, I was just out, I was walking my dogs and I was thinking, "God, there's some lessons in this process to be shared once I'm out the other side of it." And the first one is, "What do you do when you're dealing with dickheads who just want to make things more difficult than they need to be?" And so here we are, that is the topic because that is what I have had to do. That's probably a bit disparaging, I shouldn't call people arseholes but you know what, it's the shoe fits. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck. It certainly felt like people were being obstructive and causing problems, causing conflict, making things more difficult than they needed to be and I found myself being really reactive, emotionally reactive, obviously under pressure, under stress.

3:04 Now I'm not a person who invites conflict, I'm not a person who goes looking for trouble, I'm not a person who lives in kind of victim mode and feels like everything has to go my way all the time. You know, there are some people, there are some personalities who, it's almost like they attract conflict, it's almost like they love the drama of it or for whatever reason, they have difficulty with self-regulation and you know, I'm a psychologist, I can think of all the reasons why some people tend to perpetually be in conflict. I'm just saying that I'm not that person, I'm pretty easy going most of the time. I'll avoid conflict, I will not make something into a problem if it doesn't need to be a problem. which is not to say that I will roll over and be, you know, treated like an idiot but, you know, I pretty much can let the small things slide.

3:53 This was a period of not letting things slide, I found myself reacting, sending emails that I probably shouldn't have sent, feeling really annoyed and angry with people and that probably sounds very vague, I should probably be more specific what the hell, they're probably not listening. If they are, well, it's the truth, we have tenants in our house in Australia and so obviously they were upset by having the house sold because it wasn't our plan to sell the house and they had only recently moved in and they were really settled, they wanted to stay, of course and it was upsetting to them. Now bear in mind that they've got a 12 month lease, like nobody can force them to move out of the house.

4:35 For all we knew, an investor might buy the house, they may not have to move out of the house, but even if they did have to, like they're still getting a full 12 months, nobody's going to make them move, nobody's going to raise their rent. So they're pretty secure for the time being us selling the house in the short term was really just an inconvenience having to have inspections and things like that. I've been a tenant in houses that have been sold, I know it's inconvenient and as I said, it wasn't what we had planned, but we reached a point where our tenants were like not allowing us to have open homes, they were just kind of digging their heels in about a few things. And then they're obviously, because it's a rental we have a property manager and because we're selling, we have a sales agent and normally in that situation we would use the same agent, right?

5:26 It always makes sense to have the same property manager and sales agent, but we didn't, we had a different sales agency to the property management. Now I don't know if that had anything to do with things, it certainly makes things more difficult in terms of the communication channels that you have to go through to get anything done, but there turned out to be some conflict. So the point of the podcast is not to talk about who did what. All I'm saying is that there was a lot of different personalities here and a lot of different people in different positions and then me on the other side of the world, who is the person who has got the most at stake in this scenario, having to deal with all of this conflict between these personalities and the outcome being that I wasn't getting my house sold, and that was pretty significant to me, like fairly consequential to me.

6:15 And then of course on this side, we have got a landlord who wants us to buy the house and I was feeling pressure to get our house sold quickly and I was trying to do that, but I was dealing with all of these problems in Australia and then having to report back to this guy about delays with selling the house when all of that was out of my control. So let's just say tensions were running quite high. There was a lot of, there was a lot of tension all over the place and I found myself getting angry and reactive and not being my best self. Let's just say that. So I thought it might be useful for me to share with you what I do and what I have been doing, what I had to do in order to get through this period and particularly dealing with people when I feel like that people are being difficult or obstructive or when I have tension with somebody.

7:05 Because I was actively having to do this and I thought this is useful, I should share this because somebody else might find this useful to have that dealing with an arsehole. So here are my five things. I guess the first thing that I just observed about myself before I get into the actual tools, I guess the first thing that I observed about myself was that this was really the fight response. I was in fight mode, not looking for trouble for the sake of it, but the literal threat response when you are feeling threatened like there is something vital at stake or something of real value is being threatened and fight mode kicked in. Like it was like my back was against the wall and I was coming out swinging.

7:50 And so just to observe that was useful. You know, like it's like, oh this is just this instinctive threat response revving me up because this is important. And that's what was really at the front of my mind was this is important and that's why I was so angry is because I felt like.. now my perception was that other people's pettiness and other people being inconvenienced was causing them to behave in ways that could very literally have cost me and my family the opportunity to buy the house that we want to buy. It could have really significantly impacted us if we didn't get the house sold and we couldn't buy this house.

8:35 You might think that's a first world problem, but there's nothing else to rent in this price range. We would have been spending an extra thousand pounds a month, which two thousand Australian dollars a month to rent anything similar. And also we are in a community where like I said in the last episode where we feel really connected and and that means something like we are on the other side of the world. We're away from our family and friends when you're that far away from everything familiar from your home then the community that we have established is it's important. It's just it's not just oh we've got nice neighbours so we don't want to move like this is our community and it's all we've got this far away. So when these things were threatened then I really was angry that somebody else could potentially obstruct like like could get in the way and have a major negative like major ramifications for my family because they were inconvenienced by our house being sold.

9:37 That's what made me angry. Like it was what was at stake and it occurred to me that sometimes we get angry over far less important things and sometimes we can find ourselves getting reactive when there is not so much at stake and just the importance of keeping things in perspective. You know if we're finding ourselves getting worked up and reactive and creating conflict and tension over something that's less important then maybe we need to consider whether we really need to do that. Is it really worth the tension and the conflict but also I know for myself if I'm reacting to things that are less important it's usually a sign that I'm already a bit stressed.

10:19 I'm already pushed to my limit so that can be a sign to maybe take a break, take a breath and calm things down a bit which you should do anyway but I think particularly if you find yourself reacting to small things. Whereas this was a big thing like I felt kind of justified this was a big thing. There was a lot at stake. So what did I do? How do I manage myself when I'm feeling angry and frustrated? First thing is as I've said before and a reminder for you if you've heard me say this before if I'm angry at somebody else, if I'm feeling really pointing the finger at somebody else I always ask myself where am I angry with myself? Where is my responsibility? And that is not about me taking all the blame, blaming myself.

11:03 That is about me keeping a balanced perspective and being a little bit less self-righteous and kind of on my high horse on my moral high ground. Where I'm angry with myself is usually I have not been clear in my communication. I have this is a big one, not listened to my gut. I've had a gut feeling about something and I've ignored it and I've ended up in a situation or dealing with a person and it's gone badly and I knew I knew I knew from the beginning. So I've just taken some responsibility for that and it could be that I've just been letting something slide for too long not being really clear about boundaries and then it's got out of hand and I've felt like I've been really taken advantage of in some way.

11:45 So it's just my go to first step. I always will just ask what is my responsibility? Just to bring me down a little bit from that very blamey, finger pointing self-righteous kind of position that is easy to get into. It shifts perspective a little bit. The second thing that I find really important and useful is to ask myself what is driving their behaviour. I can be very justified in my behaviour. I know my perspective. I know what's at stake for me. I know my position, right? I am very clear about all that and we're all very clear about our own position, our own circumstances, our own perspective, very clear.

12:30 And then we make a lot of assumptions or we're not so clear about what's going on for the other person. We might think we know. Like I think other people are just being petty dickheads, but I don't know what's going on for that person. So this was something that I learned. It was something that a lecturer said way, way back when I was doing my Masters in Coaching Psychology. It was about workplace conflict. It has stuck with me for all of these years and the principle is that everybody is acting to meet their own needs. Nobody wakes up in the morning and thinks how can I make Cass’s life more difficult today. They don't. People are acting to get their own needs met. They've got their own perspective, their own problems or in their own little bubble.

13:12 And sometimes if somebody is being difficult or obstructive, the useful question to ask is what is going on for them? What is their need? What are they afraid of? What's being threatened for them? What is that stake for them? I know what's at stake for me and I'm acting on that and I'm just assuming that this person is getting in my way. But if I can have the presence of mind to consider what is at stake for them, I don't have to agree with it. You know, I'm only making it up anyway, I’m only assuming. But I don't have to suddenly believe that their issue is as important as mine or that their needs override mine, it's not about that.

13:53 It's just extending a little bit of curiosity and kindness to remind myself that where I think they're just being arseholes, maybe there's something going on for them that I don't know about. It helps me to diffuse some of that tension and some of that anger. If I can consider that. Also, if you are able to consider that, then sometimes that means that you're able to do something differently instead of just digging your heels and being in battle with somebody and fighting for your position, sometimes that means that you can actually step back and consider what could you do differently that might accommodate them a little more so that they can get their needs met so that they can be less obstructive so that you can get your needs met.

14:37 How can you work with them in a way that comes them down, comes down their threat response so that they are more inclined to work with you to get your needs met. So that's a win-win. So where I'm out of blame, what's going on for them, what's their needs? Now, the third thing that I can't say that I have had to do a lot, not in this kind of situation, but what I would say is a fairly useful rule of thumb and what I did do in this situation is pick up the phone. So much of our conflict and these difficult conversations happen over email and text because there's no tone and if you're already feeling stressed wound up, you can interpret tone.

15:20 Like you can interpret tone that isn't there, you can interpret words on a page in a way that is not how those words were intended. It's just people are busy and rushed and people are firing off emails or text messages and when there is a bit of conflict or tension and in a situation where people are kind of putting things in writing because they want to document it, they said this and they did the right thing and they didn't do anything wrong, then it can feel very, almost like solicitors let us, you know, it can feel very kind of conflictual. Like it doesn't feel human and friendly and personable and like let's just figure this out.

16:01 So I picked up the phone on one occasion, I picked up the phone and had a conversation and really just kind of tried to restore that relationship which was just getting into an area where it didn't need to be as like tense like it was. And again, everybody in this situation was acting to get their needs met. Everybody is doing what they need to do to protect their own position and some of this stuff was legal, like some people did have a position to protect. Just how all these things were butting up against each other, you know, throwing some miscommunication and some people not doing the right thing and then people getting upset and just escalated to a point where it was out of control.

16:41 So if you can or if it's appropriate, then sometimes taking the communication offline and having an actual human conversation is the best thing that you can do and we don't do enough of it these days, do we because we're all on our phone, sending texts and sending emails and sending WhatsApp's and human to human communication. Or, you know, face to face but that was a bit tricky when I'm on the other side of the world. So phone call was the next best thing. So if you're in a conflict with somebody by email or by text, could you pick up the phone and have a conversation? That's the question. And following on from that, the fourth thing that I had to do, wow, there's been a lot.

17:22 The fourth thing that I had to do was not had to do, but what I chose to do was there was an occasion when I sent an email and it was, it’s not that it was really rude but it was definitely a bit curt. It was probably a little, it was out of character, even my husband who was copied in said it was a little out of character, It wasn't really like you and it definitely wasn't like me. Like it was short. It was quite not friendly. And I apologised. So the next day I just sent a follow up email. I said I apologizs for the tone of my email. I sent it quickly. I was feeling under pressure and I should have taken a breath.

18:06 I should have waited until I had some more time and I should have taken a pause before I just responded quickly and sent an email that was probably out of character. I didn't say that. All I said was basically I apologise for the tone of my email. I was under pressure. You got me at a bad moment. Anyway, I just continued on with like here's the stuff that you asked for, here's where it's at or whatever. And it was fine and he appreciated it and we got on with it. And so I think if you can, if you know that you've reacted badly, that you've said something or done something in the heat of the moment that is not like you, whether you feel like it was justified or not, you know, like it's the qualities that you want to bring to the situation.

18:51 So apologising if you behave in a way that is out of character or not expressing, not being the best version of yourself. And I would say amongst all of this, like I've said a lot of things about like apologising and picking up the phone and like considering the other person's perspective and asking where I'm to blame and I just want to reiterate that none of this is to say that it's about being a pushover, about rolling over and letting everybody take advantage of you. You absolutely should stand your ground and I did. I have stood my ground. I have bloody dug my heels and stood my ground, held my position, you know, refused to let people just get away with stuff. You do have to protect yourself. You do have to stand your ground and I did have to stand my ground and I definitely was protecting my own interests.

19:35 It's about how you do it. It's about, you know, you can assert yourself and hold your ground without being unkind without creating tension or conflict unnecessarily. It's just the manner in which you do it. You know, it's the values that you bring. It's the qualities and the characteristics that you choose to embody even in the face of adversity, even when under stress and clearly you're not going to get it right all the time. Clearly I did not either. But it's always coming back to who do I want to be, like how do I want to be, even under pressure. I don't want to be that. I don't want to be an arsehole. I want to be reasonable and I want to be fair, you know.

20:18 Kind. Last but not least, my backstop. I wouldn't actually say it's my backstop because it's not always like a last resort. But one thing that I always do in a difficult, stressful situation with things are uncertain. I have no control so much as out of my hands is meditate and just send good vibes. And I feel like there is nothing I can do or I've done everything that's in my power and the outcome is not in my hands, which is a really difficult, uncomfortable place to be especially when so much is at stake.

20:59 Then I will bring the person to mind or the situation to mind and just imagine it turning out well. Just visualising positive outcomes. If it's a person who's pissing me off, I will just send them calm, send them friendliness, send them love and light, send them peace. And again, like acknowledging that we've got stuff going on for them and if I can just send them some good vibes, send them some peace, then maybe that will help them. And maybe it will and maybe it won't but it makes me feel like I'm at least doing something when there's nothing else that I can do. Will it change the outcome? Maybe not. Part of me thinks maybe it will because you know I'm into the manifesting and I'm into the visualising the outcomes that you want.

21:46 But what it definitely does do is it definitely gets me out of my head and the stewing and the frustration and the anger and the feeling of powerlessness. There's nothing worse than the feeling of powerlessness. That feeling that your fate is in somebody else's hands. That is such an awful, vulnerable position, which is clearly what I was reacting the way I was. It's an awful position to be in. And for me, sitting and meditating and just imagining that my visualisation might have some influence over the outcome makes me feel like I claw back just a little bit of some sense of control over the outcome.

22:28 Maybe, maybe not, but it certainly gets me out of the negativity, it gets me out of the stewing and the stress and the worry momentarily. And I'd much rather spend my time focusing on a positive outcome than stewing in the uncertainty and the anxiety of the worst case scenario. So that is something that I'll always do as well. And especially if there's nothing else I can do. Then I'll always default back to visualise, send light, imagine a positive outcome. Like I said last time, I know this is just the stuff that I've been going through but like, it feels like there's a lot going on. There's a lot going on with the planets, Donald Trump's bombing everybody.

23:10 There's a lot. There's chaos and conflict kind of everywhere and everybody that I talk to has said that they've been having a difficult challenging time. So I hope that by me sharing my experience and some of the ways that I have found helpful to deal with that, that if you are going through something similar or that you'll remember this in the future if you're going through something similar and if you happen to be going through something similar now, then I hope that there's something there that is helpful and always, always remembering that this too shall pass. It is the fundamental law of Buddhism. The basis of Buddhist philosophy and psychology is impermanence.

23:52 It's that everything changes. Whether it's good or it's bad, it is temporary. It's only a matter of time before something changes. So sometimes we just have to hang in there and wait for it to pass. So I am back. I am 100% focused now on my Beyond Confident. Online program, if you're interested in cultivating self-confidence, overcoming imposter syndrome, particularly if you're a small business owner, entrepreneur, solid printer, you'll be hearing a lot more from me about that. I will catch you next week for another fabulous episode of Crappy to Happy. [Music]