Dec. 13, 2020

Power, control and domestic abuse with Jess Hill

Power, control and domestic abuse with Jess Hill
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Power, control and domestic abuse with Jess Hill
Power, control and domestic abuse with Jess Hill
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Season 6 Women's Health And Wellbeing Men's Health & Wellbeing

Cass talks to investigative journalist and author, Jess Hill about the social, psychological and biological factors that contribute to domestic abuse. Intimate partner violence is an epidemic in Australia and Jess sheds light on the factors that contribute to the problem and steps we can take to address it. Note that this is a highly sensitive topic that might be distressing for some listeners. If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse we recommend calling 1800 RESPECT or the DV helpline in your state.You can buy Jess’ book See What You Made Me Do here: https://tinyurl.com/2d6wjnht
Connect with Jess:
www.jesshill.netwww.twitter.com/jessradio
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypodwww.tiktok.com/crappytohappypod
Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

Connect with Cass:

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www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
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Transcript
WEBVTT

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A listener production.

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This is obviously a highly sensitive topic and we're aware

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that it might be distressing for some listeners. If you

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or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse, we recommend

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calling one eight hundred respect that's one eight hundred seven

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three seven seven three two, or the Domestic Violence Helpline

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in your state. Hi, you're listening to Crapita Happy. I'm

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your host, Cas Dunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist,

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a mindfulness meditation teacher, and author of the Crappy A

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Happy Books. In this series, we talk about all the

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things that might be making you feel crappy and share

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tools and tips to help you overcome them. In each episode,

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I chat with interesting, inspiring and intelligent people who are

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experts in their field. And my hope is that you

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take something away from these conversations that helps you feel

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a little bit less crappy and more happy. Today I'm

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speaking with Jess Hill. Jess is an investigative journalist and

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author of the book See What You Made Me Do,

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Power Control and Domestic Abuse, which won the Stellar Prize

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in twenty twenty. Here in Australia, one woman every week

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is killed by a current or former intimate partner, and

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it seems that while some of these cases make national

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news headlines and there's collective outrage and despair, the vast

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majority of them appear to go largely unnoticed. Jess began

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reporting on domestic abuse in twenty fourteen, and she's dug

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deeply into the complex social, psychological, and biological factors that

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contribute to male violence and particularly domestic abuse. Her reporting

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work in this area has earned her two Walkley Awards,

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an Amnesty International Award, and three Hour Watch Awards. In

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today's conversation, Jess explains what coercive control is and how

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it forms the foundation of what she calls the perpetrator's handbook.

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She offers thoughtful insights into why women stay in abusive relationships,

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how you might better support someone who's experiencing callers of control,

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and the first steps you might take to get out

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if you find yourself in this situation. This is not

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a fun topic, but it is an incredibly important one,

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and I believe any change must start with education and awareness,

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and Jess has done a brilliant job of helping us

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to understand. Without further ado, here's my conversation with Jess.

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Welcome Jess, you have recently written a book called See

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What You Made Me Do, Power Control and Domestic Abuse,

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And first of all, congratulations on the book looks like

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a mammoth effort, and welcome to Crapita Happy Banks.

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Jess.

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I want to start with a simple question and preface

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that by saying, I know that there are no simple

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answers on this topic. When we talk about domestic abuse,

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what forms does that take? We know about physical violence,

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but what else does it look like?

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Yeah, so it can look like all different things, you know.

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I think we've become familiar with the explanation of domestic

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abuse or domestic violence as not just physical, that it

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can take, that it can appear as psychological, as obviously sexual,

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as financial, spiritual abuse. I think what is interesting for

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me is that certainly you can have some relationships where

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one of those elements may actually be isolated. So, for example,

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you might be in a relationship where everything seems fine

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until you find out that your partner has been committing

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financial fraud or extorting you, or do you know what

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I mean. So there can be situations in which financial

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abuse may be completely isolated away from any other types

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of abuse, but they're definitely in the minority. So when

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we're talking about domestic abuse, I think it's useful to

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think about it not so much necessarily as different forms,

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but when we talk about the most dangerous form of

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domestic abuse, and the kind of domestic abuse that we

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think of when we think about refugees or women seeking

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help or going to police, that coercive control is not

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just different types of abuse that don't just include physicality.

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It is a plotline that is virtually repeated, sort of

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like a puzzle where the pieces sort of take the

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same shape, but the image on the pieces is different.

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So you'll have stories that will have obviously their own

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unique characteristics, but they often follow a plot line that

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is so similar that when you start hearing, especially particularly

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a woman, explain it, you can pretty much finish her

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story for her, or say, at least, so, did this

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then happen? Did you then did he start becoming degrading?

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Did he start at least establishing an environment of threat?

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You know, you can pretty much tick it off. And

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what I think we haven't been so so good at.

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Even though the domestic violence sector has for years known

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about course of control because they've heard it described to

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them by victim survivors since the seventies. I don't think

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we've been so good at really telling people that this

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is a plot, like a movie plot that plays out

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time and time again and follows these very predictable steps

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like a classic rom com. You know, it's like just

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you're basically you've got your structure. You just fit in

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different storylines, and bang, you've got a different movie. And

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that structure usually looks like first establishing quite an intense relationship,

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where things might move quite quickly into moving in, saying

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I love you, even getting married, then to isolation where

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your partner may not be isolating you by telling you

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not to see friends, but we'll just make it difficult

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sea friends, or may even convince you that seeing your

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friends and other supportive connections is bad for you. In

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whatever way that happens, they isolate you, and then there's

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a series of things happened after that that get you

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into this position where a lot of victim survivors say

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they'd look in the mirror and they just wouldn't even

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recognize themselves anymore, and they would be being coerced into

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doing things or saying things, or thinking things, or behaving

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in ways that previously, if it had just all happened

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at once, they'd find abhorrent and offensive, but it just

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seemed like this was a new reality that had been created,

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and so some of them talk about it as though

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it's like brainwashing, when of course, obviously no one's brain

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is entirely washed, and there is never a time in

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which the victim survivor does not have their own agency

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and is not resisting in certain ways. But it's like

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your view on the world become so infused by the

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view of the perpetrator and their gaze on you and

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what they think of you, all those degrading comments, belittling comments,

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humiliating jokes, that it's very hard to remember what you

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thought independent of them before that all started.

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I was really interested to hear you say that, and

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you outline that in the book, Jess, about the what

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you call the perpetrator's handbook and the familiar pattern that

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this kind of unfolds. I actually came across your book

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because a friend of mine who just came out of

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a not a very good relationship, was given like a

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photocopied section of the book to read by another woman

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who had come out of an abusive relationship several years ago,

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and it's almost like this is being passed around and

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everybody who reads it is saying, you need to read this,

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you need to see this, and there it is all

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played out. And I think that's great, so common for

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after the event for women to look back and say, oh,

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now I see how this happened, and even like a

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year later or years later, are going, oh, still seeing

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it in a different light when they hear other people's

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stories and can see themselves in the consistency of the story.

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I think, you know, that's why. I just think that

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the introduction of coercive control as a really mainstream idea,

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which started sort of really in the early two thousands,

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particularly with Evan Stark's book on Coercive Control. He wasn't

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the first to explain it or describe it. It's been,

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you know, described by feminist psychologists in the seventies, and

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certainly it had been described in various ways before then,

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but I think he was the first to really kind

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of name it and describe it in such a way

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that was incontrovertible, and to really put the focus on

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the fact that by us through our criminal justice system

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but also through the media focusing on incidents of domestic

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violence as like the pointy end that that was actually

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trivializing these victims survivors' experiences, because while an incident like

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a rape or a really serious physical assault might be

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incredibly traumatizing and very momentous for someone experiencing domestic abuse,

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uses it to these isolated incidents as though there is

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not a system that is alive between those incidents, and

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I think more to the point when you only focus

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on that women who have not experienced that really severe

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physical violence where you know, that's shocking kind of description

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of physical violence, where you reel back and just can't

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believe that that could be done in an intimate relationship

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when they haven't experienced that, will they put themselves in

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this at the bottom of this sort of pyramid and say, well,

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that's real domestic violence and what I'm experiencing is not

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that bad, when in fact, actually what's happening to them

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is such a degradation of self and such a change

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in their behavior to the point where their freedoms are

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being limited, their minds are being changed, and sometimes they're

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being pathologized to the point where there will actually be

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records of them going to psychiatrists saying that they think

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they're crazy, and then that's still following them into family

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court later on the relationship dissolves. You know, So you

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have such such serious life changing consequences from non physical

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forms of course of control that when you start to

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really sort of in our way, in the way that

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we've really just positioned physical and sexual advance at the

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top of the pyramid. While it's obviously incredibly severe, it's

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not like the rest of it. There is no pyramid.

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It's actually, as you know, as has been looked at

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now in Scotland, where they've criminalized course of control, they've

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put it all on the same plane, you know, because

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actually that's where it is. I mean, all these physical

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sexual acts they're often done in the service of degradation,

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or they're done to further humiliate, or done to further

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enforced dominance, or you know, it's not like they operate

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separately to the system of abuse. They operate in service

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to all the other parts of the abuse.

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And I think what you said there about how women

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don't see themselves in that picture. I think on the

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flip side, I have heard men say, well that it

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beat he up, or I would never do that, But

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the coercive control is absolutely there and present in the

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relationship totally.

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And I've heard, you know, I've literally heard perpetrators say

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to me that in their men's behavior change program, one

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that particular said that ninety five percent of the men

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there did not actually understand what family violence was. And

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part of that is because we only criminalize physical and

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sexual acts. We also criminalize stalking, but it's very rarely

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prosecuted inside a relationship. So actually, the vast majority of

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what happens inside domestic abuse relationship is not illegal, and

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so it's not written about, you know, a lot by

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journalists because journalists will buy and large in terms of news,

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cover crime, they'll cover court reporting. Those things aren't often

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brought up in court cases, so you don't get a

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sense of when you're thinking about what is criminal behavior

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and what is domestic violence, you don't think about all

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the other things. You don't think about isolation, you don't

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think about surveillance through spywear and other communication tools. You

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don't think about threats to harm or kill. You know

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that stuff can become invisible to the perpetrator and just

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seem like, you know, that's what they had to do

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because they had to keep tabs on her, or they'll

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always have some story as to why they needed to

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act in that certain way, and usually it revolves around

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them actually being the real victims.

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Jess, what are the statistics, what are some of the

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statistics around how prevalent is this in our community?

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Like gigantic? This is what really shocked me, I guess

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when I started drilling down on the statistics. And if

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you think about, like so we think about one in

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four women since the age of fifteen have experienced physical

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or sexual violence from an intimate partner. You hear that

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statistic and you think, wow, that's high. And some people

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might think, well, maybe not in my area. That probably

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happens in that area over there where there's you know,

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there was more socioeconomic sort of disadvantage or whatever. But

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actually what I see when I do events, you know,

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when I speak at writers festivals, is that that statistic

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is born out just by the people who come and

226
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speak to me, you know, in every environment. And when

227
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you think about what does one and four actually mean?

228
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That is around two point three million women in Australia

229
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another six or seven hundred thousand men, So they've experienced that,

230
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and of course that the context of that is difficult

231
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to is difficult to say whether the women were perpetrating

232
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it in resistance or whether they were actually perpetrators themselves.

233
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But also there's very little statistics on how many children

234
00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:42.080
are growing up with domestic abuse, but some of the

235
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sort of smaller studies have shown that it could be

236
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as high as one in four. It's absolutely at the

237
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core of our society. And when I started writing about

238
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domestic abuse, I thought, ah, well, you know, yes, obviously

239
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it's prevalent and it's a serious issue, but I don't

240
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seem to know anyone who's been through it, and certainly

241
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no one in my family has experienced it. And it's

242
00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:08.639
taken about five or six years for all the people

243
00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:10.960
who I know and a related to to come out

244
00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:13.519
of the woodwork and tell me their stories of domestic abuse.

245
00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:16.519
In fact, it was only probably a few months ago

246
00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.960
that I had very close relatives explained to me their experiences.

247
00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:23.639
And I've found that there's at least one in four

248
00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:26.279
of my own family members who've been through it, you know.

249
00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:30.279
And so I think that a lot of people don't

250
00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:33.519
realize how this has been like the ghost in the

251
00:14:33.559 --> 00:14:38.159
machine of our society for so long, and that most

252
00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:41.080
people aren't just going to bring it up, and they're

253
00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:44.080
going to tell very few people, especially if it's historical,

254
00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:47.679
you know, and especially if it's like a grandmother or

255
00:14:47.720 --> 00:14:50.000
an auntie or something like that. A lot of this

256
00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:52.919
stuff just became accepted that you don't talk about it.

257
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And even through the whole Me Too movement, you know,

258
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we have all these people telling stories about sexual harassment,

259
00:15:00.919 --> 00:15:05.080
sexual assault, et cetera. But you know, the reason why

260
00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:08.759
we haven't had this huge outpouring in that same way

261
00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:12.120
from DV survivors is that, you know, a lot of

262
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these people are talking about situations that involve people who

263
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are still alive who may still be a danger to them,

264
00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:21.320
or who may be a parent to them who they're

265
00:15:21.320 --> 00:15:24.879
trying to reconcile with, or you know, it involves potentially

266
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shaming people who are either dangerous or who you may

267
00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:31.360
still love, or that you may want an inheritance from.

268
00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:34.000
You know, Like, there's a number of reasons why it's

269
00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:36.600
it's much harder to talk talk about. So I always

270
00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:39.159
caution people when people say, yeah, I know it's a

271
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serious problem, but I just don't seem to know anyone

272
00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:43.000
who's been through it. I'm like, that's not because you

273
00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:44.399
don't know, it's because they haven't told you.

274
00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:49.320
Are the numbers therefore potentially conservative? Is it potentially underreported?

275
00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:51.720
Like is that one in four? Do we know that

276
00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:53.879
that's a realistic estimate?

277
00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:56.639
I mean, this is a personal safety survey, So the

278
00:15:56.679 --> 00:16:00.000
sorts of questions I'll ask you, know, have you experience

279
00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:02.120
into a physical or sexually violent act in the last

280
00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:04.120
twelve months, or have you experienced that since you were

281
00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:07.919
a fifteen? Now you could say there would be some

282
00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:11.639
people who just may have actually dissociated from that act,

283
00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:13.639
or who may have suppressed it so much they won't

284
00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:17.320
report it even to a surveyor. But you know, if

285
00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:21.840
you're talking about histories of coersive control in which the

286
00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:25.399
worst thing that you experienced on a physical level might

287
00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:29.000
have been a slap or a pinch, you know, it

288
00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:31.799
may be that you don't think that's serious enough to report.

289
00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.879
So is it likely that maybe that figure is closer

290
00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:38.320
to one in three. I think that's a fairly good estimate,

291
00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:41.519
But we just don't know, And it's very difficult because

292
00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:45.240
the majority of women who experience coursive control or the

293
00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:47.279
majority of anyone, even if you're in a same sex

294
00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:51.679
relationship man or woman. I mean, it's gendered in heterosexual relationships,

295
00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:54.720
but it can occur in same sex relationships just as virulently.

296
00:16:55.399 --> 00:16:57.879
The thing that happens is that a lot of these

297
00:16:57.919 --> 00:16:59.919
people don't know they're experiencing it, so if they're in

298
00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:03.519
the middle of it, they may not report that. So, yes,

299
00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:05.880
there would be fluctuation in that data.

300
00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:09.200
So given that the numbers are fairly staggering, you'd like

301
00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:12.799
to think that something's been done about it. Are the

302
00:17:12.920 --> 00:17:16.519
numbers improving, Is the situation improving.

303
00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:20.960
It's very hard to gauge that, aside from just doing

304
00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:26.519
another personal safety survey and seeing what that self reporting reveals,

305
00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:28.359
like do we still get one in four when people

306
00:17:28.359 --> 00:17:32.039
are asked those questions. You can't gauge it off police

307
00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:36.400
reporting because actually, when police reporting goes up, when you

308
00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:38.920
hear that there's more police being called out to domestic

309
00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:41.759
violence incidents, that doesn't necessarily mean that the incident of

310
00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:43.799
domestic violence is going up. It just means that more

311
00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:46.799
people are reporting it. Could be neighbors, could be victims,

312
00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:49.599
could be perpetrators, you know, I mean, there's all sorts

313
00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:52.559
of things that go on there, so there's very little

314
00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:54.599
sort of like reliable data to say like is it

315
00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:56.920
going up or is it going down? I think that

316
00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:01.079
what we do know is that I think one of

317
00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:03.920
our best data sources is actually the family violence helplines

318
00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:06.960
that operate, especially on the state by state level, because

319
00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:10.000
they keep data around what they're hearing from people who

320
00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:13.279
are reporting the violence. So they'll have data like what

321
00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:17.839
percentage of women calling Safe Steps, for example, in Victoria

322
00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:22.839
needed emergency assistance compared to two years ago. Now that

323
00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:29.319
has increased, so the people requiring emergency assistance, the description

324
00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:33.839
of more severe and common incidence of say, for example,

325
00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:37.319
sexual violence, that is something we've also had data on

326
00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:41.640
from various services. So it's hard to say. Are more

327
00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:45.279
people being affected by domestic abuse? That's very hard to say.

328
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:49.079
But is the nature of the abuse intensifying. There is

329
00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:51.599
some data that suggests that it is. And I think

330
00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:54.920
if you look at you know, inputs like porn and

331
00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:57.880
the fact that mainstream porn over the last twenty years

332
00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:03.359
has gone from racing and kinky and whatever to actually

333
00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:07.079
sort of really eroticizing the degradation of women for a

334
00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:11.480
large percentage of it. It seems inevitable that there's going

335
00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:15.680
to be a parallel increase in sexual violence and coercion

336
00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:19.599
because that's actually what people are im vibing men particularly,

337
00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:23.960
but not just men, on a daily weekly basis, you know,

338
00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:27.839
extremely high volumes. You know, top I think it's three

339
00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:31.720
of the top ten websites visited worldwide are porn sites.

340
00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:36.680
Really yeah, so you know, we've come really far in

341
00:19:36.759 --> 00:19:42.480
particular areas around expectations of gender equality, around attitudes to women,

342
00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:46.400
and then you know, in the background, you've got exponential

343
00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:49.319
use of porn, which is like, you know, really veering

344
00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:53.440
into this degrading content in a much more accelerated way

345
00:19:53.480 --> 00:19:56.680
than ever. You've got a kind of backlash effect to

346
00:19:56.759 --> 00:19:59.960
all this increased gender equality, so you have online sub

347
00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:02.640
cultures of men who will talk about their right to

348
00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:05.240
sex with women. You know, so all of this stuff that,

349
00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:08.000
you know, if you're just milling around in nice circles

350
00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:11.599
and not paying attention to this sort of thing, you

351
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:14.119
might think that things have really improved, and they have.

352
00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:16.440
You know, in the seventies, you know, women if they

353
00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:19.400
were experiencing domestic abuse or let's say the late sixties,

354
00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:22.559
there was like nowhere for them to go, you know,

355
00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:24.440
if they didn't have friends or family who were going

356
00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:28.119
to help them, like the police didn't care. Until nineteen

357
00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:30.400
seventy five, there were no shelters, you know, so we're

358
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:33.720
talking about people who are absolutely trapped in that respect.

359
00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:36.960
There has been enormous improvement, but it's very much this

360
00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:39.920
two step forward, one step back, and over here you

361
00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:42.319
have the culture improving, and over here you have the

362
00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:46.079
culture sort of getting worse. And it's about this two step,

363
00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:47.319
you know, trying to manage that.

364
00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:50.680
And on that subject of pawn, I mean, boys are

365
00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:52.839
viewing that younger and younger. So on the one hand,

366
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:56.480
we're trying to educate our boys about gender equality and

367
00:20:56.759 --> 00:20:58.880
being respectful towards women, and on the other hand, they've

368
00:20:58.920 --> 00:21:03.519
got so much ready access to that kind of media.

369
00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:05.160
Precisely, and you know, my partner's a therapist and he

370
00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:06.880
made a really good point about this the other day

371
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:10.039
and we're talking about it, and so the difference. The

372
00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:14.759
difference now is that boys as young as eight, but

373
00:21:14.839 --> 00:21:18.200
you know, on average about eleven, twelve, thirteen are starting

374
00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:22.559
to view pornographic material, sometimes accidentally, sometimes on purpose, and

375
00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:26.759
sometimes just out of curiosity, and so instead of like

376
00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:29.160
it was, you know back in the day where you'd

377
00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:32.200
start feeling sexual, you start feeling sexual attraction. You might

378
00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:35.599
start like having sex age sixteen seventeen, and then you

379
00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:37.839
might start looking at maybe you're trying to sneak your

380
00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:40.559
dad's porn magazines, or maybe you'd go to an adult

381
00:21:40.599 --> 00:21:44.359
store when you're in your twenties. Like, you know, it's

382
00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:49.680
like now their sexuality is developing after they've watched porn,

383
00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:53.680
and so the pornographic imagination that's being defined by these

384
00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:56.960
you know, multi billion dollar companies who are really making

385
00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:59.720
a lot of money out of a roticizing degradation that

386
00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:04.960
is sort of entwining with the very natural sexual imagination

387
00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:07.680
of boys so much so that you know, he'll have

388
00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:10.759
clients say to him that when they're having sexual thoughts,

389
00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:13.839
they think they're thinking about porn, and he's like, but

390
00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:16.200
you can have sexual thoughts that are separate to porn,

391
00:22:16.680 --> 00:22:20.200
you know. So we're talking about like a really significant

392
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:25.559
cultural change in young boys and men's sexual tastes and

393
00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:28.279
the way that you know, if you're watching content where

394
00:22:28.359 --> 00:22:32.480
literally you know, women are being slapped, choked, you know,

395
00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:35.960
multiple penetrated, you know, all this sort of thing and

396
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:39.519
then looking like they enjoy that. And if you're sort

397
00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:42.880
of masturbating to that and you're getting this huge sort

398
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:46.000
of dopamine rush. You know, Murray Krab, who's an expert

399
00:22:46.039 --> 00:22:47.559
in this area, was saying to me the other day,

400
00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:49.759
even if you don't like that content, even if you

401
00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:53.640
find it apporrent, if you're getting that brain surge as

402
00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:56.799
a response to that, even if you keep watching it,

403
00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:59.400
you will come to like it. And it's not just

404
00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:02.240
about aiming people because they want to have kinky sex.

405
00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:06.279
You know, we're talking about we're forming young men's sexual

406
00:23:06.279 --> 00:23:10.880
identities on content that by and large depicts women as

407
00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:14.599
being grateful for their degradation. And I was saying to them,

408
00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:16.920
you know, both my partner and Marie the other day.

409
00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:21.440
You know, it's not like men are abusive or not.

410
00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:26.000
You know, men become abusive by degrees. And you talk

411
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:29.599
to women who have known their partners for fifteen, twenty years,

412
00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:32.519
it takes ten years sometimes for that abusive side of

413
00:23:32.519 --> 00:23:35.200
them to emerge. And when they met that person was

414
00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:40.240
really gorgeous person, fully supportive of their independence, et cetera.

415
00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:43.880
This happens gradually, and there are all sorts of different inputs.

416
00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:45.680
And I'm not saying that watching porn is going to

417
00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:49.880
make you an abusive person, but having that influence coming

418
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:53.279
in and often in a shameful way, in a way

419
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:56.279
that you don't want to talk about, that's taboo. It's

420
00:23:56.519 --> 00:24:00.759
very powerful and very persuasive, and it's starts to set

421
00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:04.640
up an expectation for some young men that women will

422
00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:07.440
go along with this if you're the dominant male and

423
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:11.160
you propose it forcefully, and they'll end up liking it.

424
00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:13.160
You know, maybe they don't know what's good for them

425
00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:16.200
type of thing, you know. I mean, it's just so problematic.

426
00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:19.440
I want to get to some of the psychology of

427
00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:23.119
men and what leads them to act in violent ways.

428
00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:25.359
But for the psychology of women. First of all, I

429
00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:29.839
think when we hear about women being in abusive relationships,

430
00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:32.240
the prevailing attitude still seems to be, well, why doesn't

431
00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:34.400
she just leave? Like what's stopping her from getting up

432
00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:37.960
and walking out? Why doesn't she You've really dug into

433
00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:43.440
this the psychology of why women stay, and I'm curious

434
00:24:43.480 --> 00:24:46.599
to hear what some of those reasons are.

435
00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:50.160
So I've come sort of to a different understanding of

436
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:52.160
that question. You know, at first it was sort of

437
00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:54.519
and this is not just me, this is the sectorm

438
00:24:54.519 --> 00:24:56.880
more broadly and people who work in this space. It's like,

439
00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:00.400
you know, we say, you shouldn't be asking why doesn't

440
00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:02.279
she leave? Like it should be you know, why does

441
00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:04.039
he do it? And that was really the way that

442
00:25:04.039 --> 00:25:07.079
the book was frank right, But I've really come around

443
00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:08.920
to thinking about this a bit differently, and that is

444
00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:12.319
that actually, the question why doesn't she leave? Is a

445
00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:14.640
really useful one. The problem is that we actually don't

446
00:25:14.680 --> 00:25:17.680
ask it genuinely. So when we ask that exactly like

447
00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:20.319
the tone that you just you know, mimicked, we're asking

448
00:25:20.359 --> 00:25:24.279
it rhetorically and just we're basically saying, why didn't she

449
00:25:24.359 --> 00:25:26.799
just leave? She's an idiot? That's we've already answered it in.

450
00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:27.799
Our Acuta tree.

451
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:31.279
Yes, we're not saying, so tell me why didn't she leave?

452
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:34.519
You know, tell me about the multiple systemic factors and

453
00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:37.200
psychological factors that may have kept her in that relationship.

454
00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:40.160
We're ready to hear that she's an idiot and that

455
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:44.480
she's she was codependent or she was you know, basically,

456
00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:48.839
we're ready to blame the victim now asking why didn't

457
00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:54.160
she leave? Actually in you know, genuinely renders a very

458
00:25:54.200 --> 00:25:57.240
interesting response and one that actually takes a lot of

459
00:25:57.279 --> 00:25:58.960
the mystery out of it, or at least did for me,

460
00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:02.839
And that is, you know that there are multiple reasons

461
00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:07.279
for it, some of them psychological. So there's a study

462
00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:09.480
in the States that I cite in the book that

463
00:26:09.559 --> 00:26:13.599
looks at the ways in which women will rationalize their abuse.

464
00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:17.640
Remembering that, you know, anyone who's been in a relationship

465
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:21.240
that's become even a bit problematic, maybe someone's cheated on

466
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:23.960
you that you've been with for years, or maybe there's

467
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:27.720
been you know, something that really doesn't match your values

468
00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:30.119
and you start to question why am I with this person?

469
00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:32.359
It takes a very long time for you to be

470
00:26:32.359 --> 00:26:35.119
able to see clearly enough most of the time, if

471
00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:38.119
you've been in that relationship for a while to really

472
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:41.359
go you know what, I'm not accepting this and I'm

473
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:45.079
leaving like and if you've got kids, that time is

474
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:47.319
even more drawn out. You know a lot of the time.

475
00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:51.359
And what happens in a cause of control relationship is

476
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:54.279
that often the initial stages are one of like a

477
00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:57.240
love bombing is what a lot of survivors describe it

478
00:26:57.240 --> 00:27:01.920
as where the initial stage is like a fantasy, like

479
00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:05.519
a fairy tale, or it's just really loving, where you

480
00:27:05.559 --> 00:27:07.799
feel more special than you ever have before. You know,

481
00:27:07.880 --> 00:27:11.319
this is especially people who are with abusive people who

482
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:14.119
measure high on sort of narcissistic scales. You know, they

483
00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:18.279
make you feel so special and the other stuff. Even

484
00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:21.359
if it happens quite fast, like within a few months,

485
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:24.440
it still seems gradual. But if it happens over years

486
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:27.440
and years, it's very hard to pick what's actually happening

487
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:30.839
to you. If you're seeing things that don't make sense

488
00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:33.880
to you, or if your partner starts to gaslight you,

489
00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:36.839
you know, often you're looking at the most logical explanation,

490
00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:39.799
is there's something wrong with me? Not that this person

491
00:27:39.799 --> 00:27:42.680
who I love would do something to screw me over

492
00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:44.799
like that, or to degrade me or to try to

493
00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:48.200
confuse me. That's not an obvious answer for that question,

494
00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:50.559
so you start to think there must be something wrong

495
00:27:50.599 --> 00:27:53.200
with me, And then as that starts to happen, you

496
00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:55.799
start to feel a type of shame about yourself, and

497
00:27:55.839 --> 00:27:58.400
you start to rely more and more on your partner

498
00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:01.960
to define your reality. You know, and start to think, God,

499
00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:04.279
I'm so lucky I've got this person, because I am

500
00:28:04.279 --> 00:28:06.960
truly going crazy, Like if I wasn't with this person,

501
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:08.680
maybe I wouldn't be able to meet someone else. And

502
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:11.359
maybe they reinforce that with subtle things that they say.

503
00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:15.480
This sort of very slow burned situation for a lot

504
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:18.359
of women. It's like and women and men, you know,

505
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:21.559
in these relationships, you get to a stage where if

506
00:28:21.559 --> 00:28:24.160
you've been dropped in this part, in this type of

507
00:28:24.279 --> 00:28:27.680
environment immediately upon meeting this person, you would never have

508
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:30.359
stayed in a relationship with them. But it's just happened

509
00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:34.480
very gradually. So a lot of the ways the rationalizations

510
00:28:34.519 --> 00:28:37.599
that happen inside of that environment are things like I

511
00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:40.119
can fix him, And a lot of women will say

512
00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:42.720
like that, I am the strong one in this relationship,

513
00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:46.039
Like this guy's broken, you know, he's like sobbing on

514
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:49.279
the floor, begging me to help him be a better man,

515
00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:51.640
you know, all this sort of thing, or he's you know,

516
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:54.359
it's pathetic, like the things that he does, and he's

517
00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:56.920
got this problem, gambling addiction, and I'm just going to

518
00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:01.319
try to help him, you know, fix himself. Then there's

519
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:06.079
also I'm married to him now, and that's the contract

520
00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:08.319
I signed, and I'm never going to leave. You know,

521
00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:10.519
maybe I had a broken family when I was growing up,

522
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:14.119
or maybe I am pretty religious or have traditional customs

523
00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:17.160
around this where there's absolutely no option to leave. I'm

524
00:29:17.160 --> 00:29:22.480
married now. Other ones that are much more logistical are

525
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:25.880
like I can't afford to leave, Like I can't be

526
00:29:25.960 --> 00:29:29.200
financially independent. And this is particularly obviously the case if

527
00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:33.000
there are kids involved, or I have nowhere to go,

528
00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:36.440
and if I leave, he's going to launch co op

529
00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:39.480
seedings against me. And he has earned all the money

530
00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:42.039
over the years and I've been at home looking after

531
00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:44.759
the kids, or I've been working and he's been taking

532
00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:47.960
my wages and benefits, and I don't know how I'm

533
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:50.039
gonna or I've got, you know, a disabled kid, or

534
00:29:50.079 --> 00:29:52.279
I've got any number of things that stopped me from

535
00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:54.440
being able to leave and thinking I can be a

536
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:56.880
single mother, or I can put up with whatever he

537
00:29:56.960 --> 00:29:59.799
throws at me legally. I mean, there are just a

538
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:04.480
the number of reasons why why it can be very

539
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:07.160
hard to leave. But also on top of all this,

540
00:30:07.240 --> 00:30:09.599
and this is not true for every woman. You know,

541
00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:11.799
many women will fall out of love and still be

542
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:14.240
in these relationships. But a lot of women are in

543
00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:17.240
love with their partners. They love that person, they have

544
00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:21.039
seen that person at their most vulnerable, and sometimes violence

545
00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:23.559
can show up as a vulnerability because it's like this

546
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:26.319
person is losing it and the next moment they are

547
00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:29.000
begging you for forgiveness, like you are seeing them at

548
00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:31.960
their most naked. Stripped back is the feeling, you know

549
00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:34.839
with nassis, we know it's very hard to actually see

550
00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:37.319
them stripped back because there's always a front, but there's

551
00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:40.799
you know, so that is like there's a feeling of

552
00:30:40.839 --> 00:30:43.720
bonding that occurs through that, which is like We're going

553
00:30:43.799 --> 00:30:45.839
to get through this together and I'm going to just

554
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:47.559
cop the worst of what you can throw at me.

555
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:50.640
And I've heard women say I felt like I might

556
00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:53.279
end up dying, but that I'd sort of made that

557
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:56.680
okay in my head because absolutely everything had to go

558
00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:00.720
towards making this person better. And we're socialized particular as women,

559
00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:03.440
but you know, in relationship there are men who will

560
00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:06.160
fall into this as well, where it's like we must

561
00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:10.240
put ourselves aside to make that other person better and

562
00:31:10.279 --> 00:31:12.559
to show them that the power of our love can

563
00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:19.079
can save them. So that alone is incredibly difficult barrier

564
00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:21.960
to get through, and when you start looking at all

565
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:27.119
those logistical especially things around court, etc. I had a

566
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:31.119
barrister to tell me in Victoria that the moment she

567
00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:34.519
saw her partner abuse physically abuse her son, she wanted

568
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:37.119
to leave, but she stayed in the relationship for ten

569
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:41.160
years longer because she knew that if he took her

570
00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:43.839
to family court, she wasn't going to have any proof

571
00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:47.759
of his abusiveness and that she would probably have to

572
00:31:47.799 --> 00:31:51.559
hand over her trial for unsupervised access. She just in

573
00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:55.039
good conscience could never do that, so she decided staying

574
00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:57.960
in the marriage. As a supervisor, you know, that's someone

575
00:31:57.960 --> 00:32:01.000
who is working in legal area. That's not just someone

576
00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:03.759
who has heard some bad stories. And that's certainly I

577
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:06.200
would never say to a woman, don't leave because you

578
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:09.599
may end up in family court. But it's absolutely a

579
00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:13.279
real thing to consider what will happen and will I

580
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:17.839
have whatever semblance of control I have now over the

581
00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:20.400
situation in the house, which may feel like more than

582
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:22.839
it actually is, or it may actually be a semblance

583
00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:25.079
of control. Will I at least be able to keep

584
00:32:25.079 --> 00:32:28.200
an eye on him with the kids and one woman

585
00:32:28.279 --> 00:32:31.240
said after, you know, her kid had been assaulted and

586
00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:36.200
charged by her husband, and she left, and she thought

587
00:32:36.359 --> 00:32:38.559
she considered going back to him, because she said he

588
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:46.359
would have to get through me to get to her.

589
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:51.599
We can't talk about domestic abuse without talking about the patriarchy.

590
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:56.680
And I really appreciated the sentence you put in the book,

591
00:32:56.680 --> 00:32:58.400
which is the essence. I don't know if this is

592
00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:00.480
your quote or you've quoted somebody else, but the essence

593
00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:05.240
of patriarchal masculinity is not that individual men feel powerful.

594
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:09.440
It's that they feel entitled to power. And you talk

595
00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:11.960
about that entitlement to power leading to what you call

596
00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:17.559
humiliated fury. I would really appreciate you explaining what that

597
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:19.039
is humiliated fury.

598
00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:21.759
That's a great linking you've just made cast too. I

599
00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:23.559
wish I sort of framed a bit more like that

600
00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:25.960
when I explained this, because sometimes I find it, like

601
00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:28.920
so Memeth to sort of like just boil down. But

602
00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:31.559
that's essentially what we're looking at. So I mean, before

603
00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:33.240
I sort of just go into how that links to

604
00:33:33.400 --> 00:33:36.640
humiliated fury, I think it's really important to look at

605
00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:41.200
entitlement and the way that word operates as opposed to privilege.

606
00:33:41.559 --> 00:33:44.000
So when we talk about male privilege, I mean it's

607
00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:47.000
like undeniable of course that you know, men men get

608
00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:49.960
and expect certain privileges. But when we start getting into

609
00:33:49.960 --> 00:33:53.160
the weeds of privilege, you know, you'll have people say, well, okay,

610
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:56.279
so how is a woman in upscale you know, moss

611
00:33:56.319 --> 00:33:59.759
men less privileged than a man living in poverty in

612
00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:02.480
ten you know, so we get into these sort of

613
00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:05.480
arguments about class and about all these intersecting sort of

614
00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:08.280
realities that we're all experiencing. That was a quote from

615
00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:11.719
Michael Kimmel, actually, who's a masculinity's expert in the States,

616
00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:13.920
and when he said that to me, it was like

617
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:17.800
this gigantic penny dropping. I was just like, of course,

618
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:21.480
what we're seeing is that a lot of these men

619
00:34:21.559 --> 00:34:25.440
feel utterly frustrated that they are not able to live

620
00:34:25.480 --> 00:34:30.119
the powerful lives that they have been brought up to expect,

621
00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:33.039
or not able to be the heroes of their own stories,

622
00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:36.679
or not able to have the status that they really

623
00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:40.760
desperately want. And when we're talking about biological differences between

624
00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:44.119
men and women, there's been obviously a lot of literature

625
00:34:44.119 --> 00:34:47.119
written on this, and many people will say that they

626
00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:50.599
are slim. You know, there is very slim differences. But

627
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:53.880
I think one that is particularly interesting and pertinent this

628
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:59.400
conversation is the truth around testosterone. And Robert Sapolski, who's

629
00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:05.480
neuros neuroscientists, psychologist, in his book I Think Behave, talks

630
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:09.039
about what testosterone actually is. That this is not an

631
00:35:09.079 --> 00:35:13.280
aggression hormone. This is a status seeking hormone. So when

632
00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:15.960
we see little boys being competitive to be the leader,

633
00:35:16.519 --> 00:35:20.440
or we're seeing you know, men competing for financial status

634
00:35:20.440 --> 00:35:23.239
and all this stuff around status anxiety and etc. That

635
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:26.719
this is actually the function of testosterone. And the reason

636
00:35:26.760 --> 00:35:30.679
why it goes towards being in control, being in charge,

637
00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:34.719
is because we've assigned status to that, and patriarchy assigned

638
00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:41.079
status to men being in control, to men being autonomous, independent, unemotional, rational, etc.

639
00:35:41.880 --> 00:35:48.159
What that actually means for too many men is lonely insecure.

640
00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:52.000
Because actually, and Terrence Real talks about this, he's a

641
00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:56.440
family therapist from the States. We preload boys and men

642
00:35:56.880 --> 00:36:00.920
with a type of shame because the culture, and when

643
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:03.360
I say the culture, I'm talking about what they see

644
00:36:03.519 --> 00:36:06.320
on television, but also what they get from their peers

645
00:36:06.760 --> 00:36:09.679
is telling them that they must be invulnerable. That not

646
00:36:09.719 --> 00:36:11.840
just so much that they shouldn't cry, because I think

647
00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:14.000
we're sort of getting past that in terms of how

648
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:16.360
we parent a lot of the time, but that they

649
00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:18.320
need to be strong, they need to be in charge,

650
00:36:18.360 --> 00:36:20.280
they need to be dominant, they need to be leaders.

651
00:36:21.079 --> 00:36:23.760
And so in order to do that, they're being taught

652
00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:26.760
to kill off their emotional cels or the softer parts

653
00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:31.960
of themselves and to be tough. Now, it's absolutely not

654
00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:34.880
possible for a human to operate in one half of

655
00:36:34.920 --> 00:36:37.440
themselves and to kill off the other half, Not to

656
00:36:37.480 --> 00:36:39.079
be a mummy's boy, not to be this you know,

657
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:43.000
detached from your mother, etc. It's actually unnatural. And so

658
00:36:43.400 --> 00:36:45.960
you start these boys very young, from the age of

659
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:48.880
like three or four, and when they're talking with this

660
00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:52.880
idea of how they're supposed to be, that is absolutely unachievable.

661
00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:56.559
So in pretty much in every boy, there is a

662
00:36:56.679 --> 00:37:01.480
kernel of shame around that some may resolve it and

663
00:37:01.480 --> 00:37:03.960
act and that, you know, for whatever reason, not just

664
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:06.320
good parenting but a good social milieure and a whole

665
00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:09.280
bunch of other things, they may be able to ameliorate

666
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:13.639
that and really identify differently. But that's happening in resistance

667
00:37:13.639 --> 00:37:17.159
to the status quo. So when you're born into that

668
00:37:17.239 --> 00:37:21.360
type of basically in it and in a kernel of shame,

669
00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:25.320
that then may expand as you grow old, especially if

670
00:37:25.639 --> 00:37:28.280
you're an aamiliar where you are expected to be really tough,

671
00:37:28.280 --> 00:37:32.679
and it's all very stereotypical, very stereotypically male. The quick

672
00:37:32.760 --> 00:37:36.039
pro quo with patriarchy is that kill off your emotional

673
00:37:36.039 --> 00:37:38.239
self and then you will get all of the things

674
00:37:38.280 --> 00:37:40.760
you're entitled to. You'll get the girl, you'll get, the sex,

675
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:43.519
you get, the money, you get the power that's supposed

676
00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:46.440
to be what you get as a payoff, almost and

677
00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:49.239
so there's this sense that men will have that they

678
00:37:49.239 --> 00:37:52.519
are entitled to those things. And I think in Carol Gilligan,

679
00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:55.400
the feminist psychologist, talks about this too, that this is

680
00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:58.159
a very emotional sense of entitlement. It's like, do you

681
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:00.719
know what I had to give up in order to

682
00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:03.480
be entitled to your respect? You know, obviously this is

683
00:38:03.480 --> 00:38:06.639
not conscious I'm talking about really subconscious, but there's a

684
00:38:06.679 --> 00:38:10.079
sense that like, I am entitled to this because this

685
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:12.559
is what I've been born into, and if I don't

686
00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:15.320
get it, I will be emasculated. And then I'll be

687
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:18.639
vulnerable to other men, to either being shamed by other

688
00:38:18.719 --> 00:38:21.199
men the violence of other men, you know. And so

689
00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:24.480
when people sort of talk about a former Prime minister

690
00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:26.960
at Malcolm Turnbull, when he says like, not all disrespect

691
00:38:27.079 --> 00:38:30.880
leads to violence, but all violence starts with disrespect and

692
00:38:30.920 --> 00:38:34.519
disrespecting women in particular. And my point to him, and

693
00:38:34.519 --> 00:38:36.159
I actually had a chat to him about this, was

694
00:38:36.199 --> 00:38:40.039
that actually that's one step above the original step. Actually,

695
00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:44.519
violence starts with men disrespecting other men's right to be

696
00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:49.840
emotionally embodied and so their need to be respected put

697
00:38:49.880 --> 00:38:53.119
on a pedestal by women, et cetera. And the humiliated

698
00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:57.239
fury part comes into the whole domestic abuse equation. When

699
00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:01.039
men are feeling like they're entitled to certain tension, certain

700
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:06.320
privileges from women, certain loyalty, certain behavior, and they feel

701
00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:09.519
that they're not getting it, they can feel a certain shame,

702
00:39:09.840 --> 00:39:13.280
like they have been revealed to not be worth, that

703
00:39:13.480 --> 00:39:17.320
they're unworthy, et cetera. And because that feeling of shame

704
00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:21.199
is so illicit, it's so not allowed. You're not allowed

705
00:39:21.239 --> 00:39:23.559
to feel weak. It's like the number one rule of manhood.

706
00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:26.159
Always be strong, never be weak. When you feel that

707
00:39:26.239 --> 00:39:29.360
shame come up, there's this enormous resentment that follows it,

708
00:39:29.880 --> 00:39:33.719
and so there and then in men who are abusive

709
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:36.079
rather than men who take all of this kind of

710
00:39:36.079 --> 00:39:39.239
shame on and just become quiet or become depressed or

711
00:39:39.239 --> 00:39:44.880
become isolated. When you are an abusive person, instead of

712
00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:48.159
feeling that shame, you feel entitled to displace that awful

713
00:39:48.199 --> 00:39:52.000
feeling by reinstating power and projecting that in a state

714
00:39:52.039 --> 00:39:55.079
of shame and degradation onto whoever has made you feel

715
00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:59.719
like that, And primarily that's your partner. Because even though

716
00:39:59.719 --> 00:40:02.280
people will say, well, you know, he doesn't act like

717
00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:04.480
that at work, he doesn't beat up his boss, it's

718
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:08.440
like that his boss doesn't occupy the same place that

719
00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:12.800
his partner does in his psyche. He doesn't have huge

720
00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:17.119
expectations about closeness and intimacy that are wound up in

721
00:40:17.239 --> 00:40:21.320
all of these really confusing feelings about shame and vulnerability.

722
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:24.280
That does not happen in the workplace, you know. And

723
00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:26.679
it's not just because there are consequences if he acts

724
00:40:26.679 --> 00:40:28.880
like that in the workplace and fewer consequences if he

725
00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:31.440
acts like that at home. It's because his boss doesn't

726
00:40:31.480 --> 00:40:35.159
trigger that reaction, and if his boss does trigger that response,

727
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:37.599
often he'll take it home where it's safe to let

728
00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:41.039
it out. Because the woman is supposed to contain that.

729
00:40:41.079 --> 00:40:43.480
It's supposed to contain all that rage, all that fear.

730
00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:46.880
They're supposed to be the receptacle for it. They're supposed

731
00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:49.079
to heal that and make you feel like you can

732
00:40:49.079 --> 00:40:52.519
go out into the world again. So that comparison sort

733
00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:55.320
of really annoys me because I'm just like, that does

734
00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:59.440
not really mean anything. You know, where talk intimacy is

735
00:40:59.480 --> 00:41:02.920
such a u unique space, and I have been much

736
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:04.920
worse to my partner than I would ever be to

737
00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:07.599
a boss. And I'm not an abusive person, you know,

738
00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:10.679
it's just obvious. We've all been the best of worst

739
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:13.079
parts of ourselves in our relationships in ways that we

740
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:15.480
would never be even probably to another family member.

741
00:41:16.599 --> 00:41:18.679
And when you talk about shame, Jess, like in the book,

742
00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:22.320
I found it really interesting there are four ways that

743
00:41:22.360 --> 00:41:25.480
we manage shame, process shame, and I thought that that

744
00:41:25.559 --> 00:41:28.280
was really it was really interesting. Are you able to

745
00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:32.360
just quickly talk us through how particularly how shame kind

746
00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:33.880
of tends to play out. You talked about it a

747
00:41:33.880 --> 00:41:37.039
little bit just the for men versus women, for example,

748
00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:40.840
or just the different ways that it sort of expresses itself.

749
00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:47.159
Yeah, for sure. The author and is Donald Nathanson. He's

750
00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:50.119
an American psychiatrist. He wrote a book Shame and Pride,

751
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:53.440
which is really classic in this area, and basically he

752
00:41:53.480 --> 00:41:55.960
talked about the fact that none of us want to

753
00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:58.960
experience shame, be us men or women. You know, like

754
00:41:59.079 --> 00:42:02.119
shame is by it's very nature unbearable. It's the sort

755
00:42:02.119 --> 00:42:05.119
of feeling that makes us want to be just swallowed

756
00:42:05.159 --> 00:42:08.119
up by the earth and makes us want to be invisible.

757
00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:12.239
So what he talked about is the shame compass that

758
00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:14.840
there is, like this library of methods that people use

759
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:19.719
when shame strikes them. And so someone who is feeling

760
00:42:19.800 --> 00:42:22.719
shame may just withdraw It might be as mild as

761
00:42:22.719 --> 00:42:25.199
looking at the ground, or they might go and live

762
00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:27.159
in a remote cabin on a hillside, you know, like

763
00:42:27.199 --> 00:42:30.000
it can be mild or extreme versions of that withdrawal.

764
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:32.079
But a lot of us will just avoid eye contact

765
00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:33.719
when we feel a sense of shame. We don't want

766
00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:37.159
anyone to see us. And that's actually, you know, that's

767
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:39.800
the most courageous way to deal with shame that people

768
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:42.639
who tend towards withdrawal are actually the ones who are

769
00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:46.360
most likely to do emotional work or the psychotherapeutic work

770
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:49.480
to deal with it. Another reaction is to attack yourself,

771
00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:52.719
and that can be as mild as a self degradating,

772
00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:56.760
deprecating comment, or it could be like self harm and

773
00:42:56.800 --> 00:43:02.039
at the extreme end, suicide. Vuidance is perhaps the most

774
00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:05.559
invisible response to shame, and we're talking about avoidance in

775
00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:09.320
the extreme cases. We're talking about narcissists who have literally

776
00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:13.760
constructed like their entire identity and lifestyle in order to

777
00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:18.280
avoid ever feeling shame. So they've built up this firewall personality.

778
00:43:18.719 --> 00:43:21.440
And look at Donald Trump for example. You know, here

779
00:43:21.559 --> 00:43:26.039
is a malignant narcissist who is so shame prone. He

780
00:43:26.159 --> 00:43:28.719
was for four years basically the most powerful person on

781
00:43:28.760 --> 00:43:31.320
the planet, and he would be like, you know, picking

782
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:34.000
fights with people on Twitter who he felt had belittled him.

783
00:43:34.039 --> 00:43:37.880
You know, like, this is someone who apparently has endless

784
00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:41.800
self confidence but is absolutely prone to shame. And what

785
00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:44.840
the narcissist tries to do is just continually seek approval

786
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:48.599
and flattery from others in order to just avoid ever

787
00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:52.280
feeling shame, and when they do feel shame, they will

788
00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:55.800
respond to the merest hint of it with maximum aggression

789
00:43:56.360 --> 00:43:58.480
in order to shut it down and teach that person

790
00:43:58.519 --> 00:44:01.239
never to do that again. And the fourth and final

791
00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:05.000
shame response is to attack others. So I mean, obviously

792
00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:08.119
when we talk about avoidance and the narcissist, they're sort

793
00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:11.079
of doing both. But this is really the most destructive

794
00:44:11.119 --> 00:44:13.840
responsible because all of us are going to feel shame

795
00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:18.760
and we can't if we have a response, a habituated

796
00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:21.440
response to shame that when we feel it we attack somebody,

797
00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:26.000
then we're becoming a dangerous individual either where we're damaging

798
00:44:26.039 --> 00:44:28.719
people and we're traumatizing people, either in our friends circles

799
00:44:28.760 --> 00:44:32.000
by backbiting and bitching about them or you know, doing

800
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:35.360
that sort of more passive aggressive type attacking, or in

801
00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:38.320
the situation of domestic abuse, we are when we feel

802
00:44:38.360 --> 00:44:41.719
that sense of shame, we are getting rid of it

803
00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:45.519
by overwhelming it with a sense of power, and that

804
00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:48.239
might be through a physical attack, it might be through

805
00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:51.000
putting a GPS track in your partner's car so that

806
00:44:51.039 --> 00:44:52.679
you can make sure you know where they're going at

807
00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:56.719
all times, and that that feels like you're avoiding future

808
00:44:56.800 --> 00:44:58.800
shame so that she's not able to go off and

809
00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:01.079
cheat on you without you know, you know, it could

810
00:45:01.079 --> 00:45:03.239
be any types of things, but this is where we

811
00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:07.000
see shame becoming humiliated fury.

812
00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:10.519
So, Jess, we talked a little bit right at the

813
00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:16.960
beginning of this conversation about the almost the escalation of violence.

814
00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:19.599
I think it's fair to say when there is conflict

815
00:45:19.639 --> 00:45:22.199
in a relationship, there will be women and probably men

816
00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:25.079
as well, who asks, well, isn't this just like normal

817
00:45:25.159 --> 00:45:26.199
people couples fight?

818
00:45:27.239 --> 00:45:28.199
Is it abusive?

819
00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:33.360
I don't know. Are there some really key telltale signs

820
00:45:33.400 --> 00:45:36.480
that people need to look forward to recognize? Oh, hang

821
00:45:36.519 --> 00:45:39.000
on a second, No, these are red flags.

822
00:45:39.400 --> 00:45:42.360
Yeah, And it's very difficult because I have had people

823
00:45:42.760 --> 00:45:45.840
come to me at writers' festivals and various places, are

824
00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:50.440
presented and described things to me that are ticking all

825
00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:54.159
of the red flags, and yet I'm still unable to say,

826
00:45:54.199 --> 00:45:56.800
like that is I would absolutely classify as abuse. But

827
00:45:56.840 --> 00:46:00.960
it certainly are all the early warning signs. Now, in

828
00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:04.519
some cases, those early warning signs might peter out. It

829
00:46:04.599 --> 00:46:07.559
might be that someone starts a relationship they've been cheated

830
00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:09.920
on by various people in the past and they are

831
00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:12.400
just a bit paranoid and protective. But then as the

832
00:46:12.440 --> 00:46:15.719
love starts to solidify, they let go of that. You know,

833
00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:18.920
so some of those classic red flags like you know,

834
00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:22.159
your partner checking your phone or always asking where you

835
00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:24.800
are or you know, those sorts of things. Maybe there

836
00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:26.679
will be cases where that's at the beginning of the

837
00:46:26.679 --> 00:46:29.719
relationship and then they loosen up. Right. So, and this

838
00:46:29.800 --> 00:46:32.079
is what's very difficult for people who are experiencing this

839
00:46:32.239 --> 00:46:34.719
to go. Is this the kind that escalates or is

840
00:46:34.719 --> 00:46:38.159
it the kind that de escalates. I'd say that, you know, really,

841
00:46:38.199 --> 00:46:41.760
what you're looking for is does the person I'm with

842
00:46:44.119 --> 00:46:49.719
encourage my potential and my access to independence or do

843
00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:53.280
they diminish it? You know? Do they encourage me to

844
00:46:53.320 --> 00:46:58.639
develop friendships? Do they like my friends and family? You know,

845
00:46:58.800 --> 00:47:01.719
if you have nice friends and family who you also like,

846
00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:06.119
theme do they you know, do they encourage me in

847
00:47:06.119 --> 00:47:10.119
my career? Do they do things that look like they

848
00:47:10.119 --> 00:47:12.280
are trying to open the way for me to be

849
00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:15.079
the best part of myself? Now, if you see other

850
00:47:15.159 --> 00:47:19.400
signs that they make snide little comments about your work,

851
00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:23.400
or it always seems like they're too busy to catch

852
00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:25.960
up with your friends, or they kind of make your

853
00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:29.559
friends feel really uncomfortable when they come over, or you know,

854
00:47:29.679 --> 00:47:31.519
they do seem to want to know where you are

855
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:34.960
all the time, or they start making jokes about you

856
00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:38.800
being fat, or they start just this sort of slow

857
00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:42.079
level of degradation. Some of the other really typical signs

858
00:47:42.079 --> 00:47:44.719
that are harder for people inside the relationship to see

859
00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:48.559
is when they seem like it's never never to blame

860
00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:51.880
for anything that's gone wrong, it's always your fault, or

861
00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:54.280
even if they take a bit of blame, it's still

862
00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:56.239
a bit to do with you, And that's not we're

863
00:47:56.280 --> 00:47:59.199
not talking about normal fights where a lot of the

864
00:47:59.239 --> 00:48:02.760
time it is both people who have played a role.

865
00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:05.960
You know, certainly can talk from my own experience, but

866
00:48:06.199 --> 00:48:10.039
we're talking about times where they clearly have, like unilaterally,

867
00:48:10.199 --> 00:48:12.519
of their own volition, gone and done something really shit,

868
00:48:12.880 --> 00:48:14.800
and then they're trying to put it on you, even

869
00:48:14.840 --> 00:48:17.400
if they're taking a bit of responsibility. It's that chipping

870
00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:19.880
away kind of thing that you've got to really be

871
00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:23.840
aware of. I think for people who are friends or

872
00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:27.800
loved ones of people going through this, A really classic

873
00:48:28.199 --> 00:48:30.360
sign of this is when you start to see a

874
00:48:30.360 --> 00:48:33.000
bit of an us and them mentality start to form,

875
00:48:33.039 --> 00:48:36.880
where it feels like that that relationship is almost against

876
00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:40.679
like everybody else, like that the one person in that relationship,

877
00:48:40.679 --> 00:48:43.800
that the partner of your friend, is starting to turn

878
00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:47.480
them against you or their family. When you start to

879
00:48:47.480 --> 00:48:50.119
see them with draw, if you start to see them

880
00:48:50.119 --> 00:48:52.960
making like strange comments about eating like so and so

881
00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:55.440
wouldn't want me eating that, or so and so wouldn't

882
00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:58.519
want me wearing that, when they start to turn down

883
00:48:58.719 --> 00:49:01.400
invitations a lot, where you start to feel like that

884
00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:05.800
person's becoming really isolated. And sometimes I mean, people will

885
00:49:05.880 --> 00:49:09.039
tell their friends and family pretty much what is happening,

886
00:49:09.679 --> 00:49:11.760
but then they'll stay with that person and when they

887
00:49:12.039 --> 00:49:14.039
their friends and family bring it up later. But didn't

888
00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:16.679
he do that? I mean, or didn't she do that

889
00:49:16.719 --> 00:49:19.079
to you? Aren't you still upset about that? And I say, no,

890
00:49:19.159 --> 00:49:22.119
what are you talking about? That never happened, And you

891
00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:25.840
may feel yourself started to feel gaslighted, right because ultimately,

892
00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:29.800
what is happening, especially in coercive control, we see this

893
00:49:30.039 --> 00:49:33.679
in cults. The very same behavior is used against cult

894
00:49:33.679 --> 00:49:36.920
members by cult leaders is that the relationship becomes like

895
00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:41.719
a cult and people who challenge the partner, the abusive

896
00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:46.000
partner are seen as a threat. And the ultimate thing

897
00:49:46.039 --> 00:49:49.239
that that abusive person is getting you to do is

898
00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:53.519
to be more loyal, more compliant, you know, And that's

899
00:49:53.519 --> 00:49:56.320
what you're having to show in order for you to

900
00:49:56.360 --> 00:49:59.119
be a good enough person in the relationship. So when

901
00:49:59.159 --> 00:50:02.800
you see, you know, your friend's family saying I'm really

902
00:50:02.840 --> 00:50:05.039
worried about this guy or girl. You know, she just

903
00:50:05.039 --> 00:50:06.760
seems like she's really bad for you. It looks like

904
00:50:06.800 --> 00:50:09.559
she's doing this abusive behavior. I've heard of coercive control.

905
00:50:09.639 --> 00:50:12.559
This is what it looks like. Some people will actually

906
00:50:12.760 --> 00:50:15.039
just not call you, they'll just cut you out of

907
00:50:15.039 --> 00:50:18.719
their life because you're a threat. So what people are

908
00:50:19.039 --> 00:50:21.960
often advised to do in those situations, it's just start

909
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:25.480
a bit softly, softly, be like, I've noticed changes in you.

910
00:50:25.480 --> 00:50:27.639
You know, you used to act more like this, and

911
00:50:27.679 --> 00:50:30.079
now you act like this, or I haven't seen you

912
00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:32.679
in ages, and I just like, I'm just wondering how

913
00:50:32.719 --> 00:50:36.360
you are, you know, just trying to basically point out

914
00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:39.559
the impact of the behavior, even if you see the

915
00:50:39.599 --> 00:50:42.280
behavior as clear as day and you just want to

916
00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:44.599
go and shake them and just go can't you see

917
00:50:44.639 --> 00:50:49.239
what he's doing to you trying to just maintain that relationship,

918
00:50:49.599 --> 00:50:54.000
even if it just it is frustrating as hell. The

919
00:50:54.079 --> 00:50:57.960
less you isolate them on behalf of the perpetrator, the better.

920
00:50:58.400 --> 00:51:02.239
And sometimes like I mean, I've known people that I

921
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:04.679
have moved away from because I felt like I just

922
00:51:04.719 --> 00:51:07.440
can't talk to them anymore, like they are just going

923
00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:10.320
over the same ground over and over, and in the end,

924
00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:13.599
I've moved away, and I feel terrible about that because

925
00:51:13.639 --> 00:51:16.360
I know that's just reinforcing the abusive system. I mean,

926
00:51:16.679 --> 00:51:19.039
I don't think people should beat themselves up for one

927
00:51:19.079 --> 00:51:22.719
of better term, for feeling like I couldn't be the

928
00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:26.800
best support for that person, because it literally it is

929
00:51:27.079 --> 00:51:29.480
like trying to get someone out of a cult, and

930
00:51:29.519 --> 00:51:33.320
that is an incredibly difficult task, and you can even

931
00:51:33.400 --> 00:51:36.360
find yourself developing a dislike for that person you know

932
00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:39.159
and judging them. But what you've got to remember is

933
00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:42.880
that mental persuasion and the coercion that they're living under

934
00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:46.760
is very strong, and it's very very difficult for them

935
00:51:46.760 --> 00:51:49.119
to see clearly what you might be able to see clearly.

936
00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:54.239
So is the suggestion then to try to, as you say,

937
00:51:54.440 --> 00:51:57.920
not drive them back closer to their partner, just to

938
00:51:58.000 --> 00:52:00.440
kind of stay on the periphery and be a at

939
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:02.960
least if they know that you're available when they eventually

940
00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:04.159
come to see.

941
00:52:04.639 --> 00:52:06.920
Yeah, and maybe sort of suggesting like, oh, I saw

942
00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:10.199
this great documentary or you know, I saw maybe there's

943
00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:12.400
something about coersive control that you might have seen, or

944
00:52:12.400 --> 00:52:14.960
maybe like say, ah, you know, I read this thing

945
00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:17.400
about coursive control is really interesting, instead of saying you

946
00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:20.320
should read it because you're experiencing it, like maybe just

947
00:52:20.480 --> 00:52:22.360
like I'd love for you to read it, or I'd

948
00:52:22.719 --> 00:52:25.039
or just tell them about it, like did you know that?

949
00:52:25.079 --> 00:52:28.000
Blah blah blah blah blah, and just trying to open up.

950
00:52:28.039 --> 00:52:30.800
I think a lot of the time when I've certainly

951
00:52:30.800 --> 00:52:33.519
had the experience that when when women have heard coursive

952
00:52:33.519 --> 00:52:38.400
control explained, women who have been in abusive relationships, who

953
00:52:38.440 --> 00:52:41.840
have not clocked on to what's going on, have suddenly gone,

954
00:52:42.079 --> 00:52:45.000
holy shit, that is me, that is what is happening

955
00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:47.760
to me. I finally have a word for it. And

956
00:52:47.840 --> 00:52:50.800
so I don't want to be saying like oh, softly, softly,

957
00:52:50.920 --> 00:52:53.760
don't confront them ever, you know, treat them like you know,

958
00:52:53.800 --> 00:52:57.320
with kid gloves. But what you're trying to do is,

959
00:52:57.360 --> 00:52:59.320
as you say, don't you know, you don't want to

960
00:52:59.320 --> 00:53:02.880
force them back closer to their partner and away from you. Obviously,

961
00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:04.960
when there are children involved, and if you feel like

962
00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:08.119
your friend is not assessing the level of threat accurately

963
00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:13.360
and there are kids there, it makes it very very difficult,

964
00:53:13.760 --> 00:53:18.039
you know, because this softly softly approach can feel really dangerous,

965
00:53:18.239 --> 00:53:21.199
you know, and clearly you know there are going to

966
00:53:21.199 --> 00:53:23.239
be some instances in which you're going to feel like

967
00:53:23.320 --> 00:53:25.159
you have to call police or you have to call

968
00:53:25.199 --> 00:53:29.360
a service or something to intervene because there's you know,

969
00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:33.280
an imminent risk of serious harm. That's a huge decision

970
00:53:33.320 --> 00:53:36.719
to make, but it is a decision that friends, family

971
00:53:36.800 --> 00:53:40.920
and neighbors make every day all over Australia. But you know,

972
00:53:41.119 --> 00:53:44.119
you risk losing the trust of that person or there's

973
00:53:44.159 --> 00:53:45.920
all sorts of things that are wound up in that.

974
00:53:45.960 --> 00:53:49.840
It's not an easy decision. So yeah, it's very hard.

975
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:54.400
I think sometimes if you're unsure, calling either one eight

976
00:53:54.440 --> 00:53:57.559
hundred respect or calling the statewide DV helplines and just

977
00:53:57.639 --> 00:54:02.079
asking for some advice is really a good idea because

978
00:54:02.360 --> 00:54:04.559
often it can feel too big for you to deal

979
00:54:04.599 --> 00:54:08.000
with or to cope with, because it just feels like

980
00:54:08.079 --> 00:54:11.000
nothing you're going to do is ever going to work. Yeah.

981
00:54:11.599 --> 00:54:13.239
I wanted to just quickly go back and pick up

982
00:54:13.239 --> 00:54:15.719
on something that you said earlier about when we talked

983
00:54:15.719 --> 00:54:17.440
about the science that you might look out for, and

984
00:54:17.480 --> 00:54:21.280
you said, does he encourage you to you know, is

985
00:54:21.280 --> 00:54:25.559
he interested in you being fulfilling your dreams or your potential?

986
00:54:25.599 --> 00:54:29.960
Dos he support your goals? And I actually noticed with

987
00:54:30.039 --> 00:54:32.159
this friend of mine who was in a relationship. They

988
00:54:32.199 --> 00:54:34.920
were in business together, and then she was sort of

989
00:54:34.920 --> 00:54:37.000
had this thing that she was doing on her own

990
00:54:37.039 --> 00:54:39.000
to the side, and I made a comment to her

991
00:54:39.039 --> 00:54:41.719
after they'd come out, after she had left the relationship.

992
00:54:41.719 --> 00:54:43.960
I said, I never saw him. I constantly saw you

993
00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:46.719
promoting him and promoting his business and promoting what he does.

994
00:54:46.760 --> 00:54:51.400
I never ever saw him publicly promoting you and your events.

995
00:54:51.719 --> 00:54:56.480
And she said, oh, well, he was very supportive of me.

996
00:54:56.599 --> 00:54:59.840
It was very supportive behind closed doors and helping me

997
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:02.559
I am up my business, and at his events he

998
00:55:02.599 --> 00:55:05.639
would always talk about me. And it's like, yeah, well

999
00:55:05.639 --> 00:55:08.360
that's in those situations you were an extension of him.

1000
00:55:08.639 --> 00:55:11.119
He was talking you up at his events because you

1001
00:55:11.480 --> 00:55:15.119
were evidence of his greatness, yes.

1002
00:55:14.760 --> 00:55:17.840
And so selfless promotion where there was not much selfless

1003
00:55:18.159 --> 00:55:19.400
promotion going on. Yeah.

1004
00:55:19.480 --> 00:55:21.960
Right, So I think that can be really like I

1005
00:55:21.960 --> 00:55:25.079
don't think that she necessarily saw what I saw from

1006
00:55:25.079 --> 00:55:28.960
the outside, but behind she would see him talking about

1007
00:55:28.960 --> 00:55:31.360
her and how supportive and amazing she was on these

1008
00:55:31.360 --> 00:55:33.320
things that she was doing. But it was all about

1009
00:55:33.480 --> 00:55:36.320
ultimately reflecting back on That is.

1010
00:55:36.320 --> 00:55:39.039
A classic narcissist as well. You know, we're not talking

1011
00:55:39.079 --> 00:55:43.280
about narcisstic personality disorder necessarily, but that narcissistic frame where

1012
00:55:43.440 --> 00:55:45.440
you know, I am the sun and you are the

1013
00:55:45.440 --> 00:55:47.800
moon type of thing, you know, like you reflect my beauty.

1014
00:55:49.599 --> 00:55:51.559
And that's right. I mean, it's a really good point

1015
00:55:51.559 --> 00:55:53.760
that you make because a lot of the time it

1016
00:55:53.960 --> 00:55:57.039
is that subtle and it is a matter of perspective.

1017
00:55:57.480 --> 00:56:00.559
I actually there was a really interesting interview this woman

1018
00:56:00.599 --> 00:56:03.880
who was married to Don McClain, the American singer of

1019
00:56:04.239 --> 00:56:09.480
American Pie, and he apparently coersively controlled her throughout their

1020
00:56:09.519 --> 00:56:15.320
marriage and was actually convicted on assault charges recently. And

1021
00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:18.159
she said that, you know, she was a calligrapher and

1022
00:56:18.199 --> 00:56:21.480
so she'd be working on this, you know, really complex work,

1023
00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:24.480
and he'd come over to her like just as she

1024
00:56:24.559 --> 00:56:27.079
was finishing, and she'd be right at the end and

1025
00:56:27.159 --> 00:56:30.519
he'd just rub her shoulders and then she'd smudged the work.

1026
00:56:31.320 --> 00:56:34.880
And he would do that kind of routinely, and so

1027
00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:38.960
it was like it doesn't come across that he's pushing

1028
00:56:38.960 --> 00:56:41.440
her hand out, and you can again it's that feeling

1029
00:56:41.440 --> 00:56:44.719
of gaslighting because it's like, did you do that on purpose?

1030
00:56:44.840 --> 00:56:48.000
Like you seem to be affectionate, but actually what you've

1031
00:56:48.000 --> 00:56:49.760
just done is destroy this thing I've been working on

1032
00:56:49.840 --> 00:56:53.639
for a week, you know. And that gap between those

1033
00:56:53.679 --> 00:56:57.679
two actions is very, very difficult for a lot of

1034
00:56:57.760 --> 00:57:02.159
victims to sort of like put together, where you think, well,

1035
00:57:02.280 --> 00:57:04.840
what kind of person are you who would think that

1036
00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:06.800
he would come up and intentionally do that. He's just

1037
00:57:06.800 --> 00:57:08.760
coming up to give you a neck massage, and you're

1038
00:57:08.840 --> 00:57:12.679
making out like he's ruining your work? How selfish are you?

1039
00:57:12.760 --> 00:57:15.199
Like he's coming up and showing you care. That's what

1040
00:57:15.320 --> 00:57:17.719
that's the internal script that's going on for so many

1041
00:57:17.760 --> 00:57:20.880
victim survivors, just like you're such a nasty person that

1042
00:57:20.920 --> 00:57:23.559
you're framing them like that, because actually what they're doing

1043
00:57:23.599 --> 00:57:26.239
is caring for you. And that's the problem is that

1044
00:57:26.400 --> 00:57:30.159
so many abuses will will hide and conceal their abuse

1045
00:57:30.199 --> 00:57:33.360
in that caregiving kind of behavior. And it's really important.

1046
00:57:33.400 --> 00:57:35.840
I'm so glad you raised it because it's actually it

1047
00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:38.639
is really important for both friends and family to know that,

1048
00:57:38.679 --> 00:57:41.639
but also for victim survivors to know that, and to

1049
00:57:41.719 --> 00:57:44.880
know that, Like, if you're having qualms about that, if

1050
00:57:44.920 --> 00:57:48.440
you're having second thoughts, then there is probably something to it,

1051
00:57:48.840 --> 00:57:50.960
because most people do not have to second guess a

1052
00:57:51.000 --> 00:57:52.800
caring gesture from their partner.

1053
00:57:53.119 --> 00:57:56.480
Jess, if somebody is listening to this now, I think

1054
00:57:56.519 --> 00:57:59.800
we've given some suggestions for people who might know somebody

1055
00:57:59.800 --> 00:58:01.800
who they're concerned about. But if somebody is listening to

1056
00:58:01.840 --> 00:58:05.480
this and going, oh goodness, I has just the pennies

1057
00:58:05.559 --> 00:58:07.920
just dropped that perhaps I'm in an abusive relationship or

1058
00:58:07.960 --> 00:58:10.880
they know that they are. We'll put some phone numbers

1059
00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:12.840
and things in the show notes. But do you have

1060
00:58:12.920 --> 00:58:15.320
any practical advice to share?

1061
00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:19.639
Yeah? So, I always think the first port of call

1062
00:58:19.760 --> 00:58:23.480
really is to if you can make a call to

1063
00:58:23.519 --> 00:58:25.639
one of those helplines and not to say that they're

1064
00:58:25.679 --> 00:58:28.000
going to give you all the information you need or

1065
00:58:28.039 --> 00:58:30.840
that that's just you know, something that's going to sort

1066
00:58:30.880 --> 00:58:34.519
everything out. But the first thing I think that people

1067
00:58:34.519 --> 00:58:38.639
who are experiencing domestic abuse need when they realize it,

1068
00:58:38.719 --> 00:58:42.000
is a safety plan, and that is to basically say

1069
00:58:42.079 --> 00:58:46.039
that not one that is about you leaving necessarily unless

1070
00:58:46.039 --> 00:58:48.400
you've decided that that's what you want to do, But

1071
00:58:48.480 --> 00:58:52.039
it's about how can I be safe inside this relationship

1072
00:58:52.079 --> 00:58:56.360
if that's my choice, how can I also prepare if

1073
00:58:56.400 --> 00:59:01.320
things escalate to leave quickly? You know. So safety plans

1074
00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:05.000
are incredibly important just so that you don't find yourself

1075
00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:08.159
being caught unawares, like too many women are having to

1076
00:59:08.239 --> 00:59:11.639
leave very suddenly. They leave with like a couple of

1077
00:59:11.679 --> 00:59:14.920
dollars in their back pocket. They may not have important

1078
00:59:14.920 --> 00:59:18.079
documents like birth certificates, passports, you know, and then they

1079
00:59:18.119 --> 00:59:21.360
find it difficult to impossible to actually claim those things

1080
00:59:21.360 --> 00:59:25.119
back again. So sometimes a safety plan might be make

1081
00:59:25.159 --> 00:59:28.320
sure that you have copies of your most important documents.

1082
00:59:28.679 --> 00:59:32.000
It might be you know what, you need to create

1083
00:59:32.039 --> 00:59:35.480
a secret, separate bank account and you need to start

1084
00:59:35.880 --> 00:59:39.880
siphoning off part of your income or creating some situation

1085
00:59:39.960 --> 00:59:42.000
in which you can put some money in that account,

1086
00:59:42.760 --> 00:59:46.800
and so many times I hear safety planners tell women,

1087
00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:51.920
you know that financial independence or some semblance of it,

1088
00:59:51.960 --> 00:59:55.480
is kind of vital because most women are afraid to

1089
00:59:55.559 --> 00:59:57.800
leave because they're afraid of being destitute, which is a

1090
00:59:57.840 --> 01:00:01.599
pretty like pressing fear for any of us. It makes

1091
01:00:01.599 --> 01:00:04.440
a lot of sense. So that's what I would do,

1092
01:00:04.559 --> 01:00:08.039
is find someone, whether it be a statewide helpline, whether

1093
01:00:08.079 --> 01:00:10.760
it be a foundation like the Lisa Harnan Foundation, which

1094
01:00:10.800 --> 01:00:15.199
has a casework is situated in shopping centers in southwest Sydney,

1095
01:00:16.119 --> 01:00:19.039
anyone who can sort of really work that through, who

1096
01:00:19.039 --> 01:00:21.280
can assess your level of risk and then give you

1097
01:00:21.320 --> 01:00:24.199
pointers on what to do next. That's the first step

1098
01:00:24.239 --> 01:00:24.559
I think.

1099
01:00:24.719 --> 01:00:27.960
Yeah, great, Jess, I'm very conscious of your time. Thank

1100
01:00:28.000 --> 01:00:31.320
you so much. This has been so enlightening, such an

1101
01:00:31.360 --> 01:00:33.519
important topic, not a fun one, but a really really

1102
01:00:33.599 --> 01:00:36.320
important one, and I appreciate you sharing everything that you

1103
01:00:36.400 --> 01:00:37.840
have learned with us.

1104
01:00:38.719 --> 01:00:45.400
Thank you. Kas's great, great questions. Really, thank you thanks

1105
01:00:45.400 --> 01:00:46.280
for listening.

1106
01:00:45.920 --> 01:00:47.000
To today's episode.

1107
01:00:47.039 --> 01:00:47.639
If this is a.

1108
01:00:47.599 --> 01:00:50.800
Topic of personal interest or importance to you, or something

1109
01:00:50.840 --> 01:00:53.880
you'd like to understand better, I would highly recommend you

1110
01:00:53.920 --> 01:00:56.239
grab a copy of Jess's book See What You Made

1111
01:00:56.320 --> 01:00:59.559
Me Do. If this episode has been distressing for you,

1112
01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:02.920
or if you or anybody that you know is experiencing

1113
01:01:02.960 --> 01:01:07.519
domestic abuse, please do contact one eight hundred respect that's

1114
01:01:07.559 --> 01:01:11.119
one eight hundred seven three seven seven three to two,

1115
01:01:11.199 --> 01:01:15.039
or the domestic violence helpline in your state. If you

1116
01:01:15.119 --> 01:01:17.519
love the Crappy to Happy podcast, please do leave us

1117
01:01:17.559 --> 01:01:20.400
a rating and review. I also love reading all of

1118
01:01:20.400 --> 01:01:23.360
your messages and feedback on Instagram. I'm at cast Done

1119
01:01:23.440 --> 01:01:27.800
underscore XO, or on email Hello at castone dot com.

1120
01:01:28.119 --> 01:01:30.719
To be part of my online community. Jump into my

1121
01:01:30.920 --> 01:01:34.360
free Facebook group. It's called Crappy to Happy Community. I'll

1122
01:01:34.360 --> 01:01:36.280
put the link to that in the show notes. And

1123
01:01:36.320 --> 01:01:38.920
if you're ready to take your happiness to the next level,

1124
01:01:39.039 --> 01:01:42.719
you're welcome to join my paid membership community, Beyond Happy.

1125
01:01:43.039 --> 01:01:46.119
Find out all the details at castdone dot com, Forward

1126
01:01:46.199 --> 01:01:48.920
slash Beyond. I look forward to chatting to you in

1127
01:01:48.960 --> 01:01:53.280
the next episode of Crappy to Happy. Crappy to Happy

1128
01:01:53.320 --> 01:01:56.719
is presented by cast Done, produced by Davis Lenski, Audio

1129
01:01:56.760 --> 01:01:58.239
production by Darcy Thompson.

1130
01:02:01.880 --> 01:02:02.320
Listener