Feb. 6, 2019

Redefining masculinity with Tom Harkin

Redefining masculinity with Tom Harkin
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Redefining masculinity with Tom Harkin
Redefining masculinity with Tom Harkin
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Season 3 Men's Health & Wellbeing

Traditional gender roles are hurting men as well as women. Tom Harkin, founder of Tomorrow Man, speaks with Cass Dunn about helpin men and boys to break down the old stereotypes that are so hard to shift and help men to decide for themselves what kind of man they want to be.Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
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Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

Connect with Cass:

www.cassdunn.com
www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
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Transcript
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A listener production.

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Hi, this is Crappy to Happy and I'm your host,

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Cas Dunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, mindfulness meditation teacher,

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and author.

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Of the Crappy to Happy books.

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In this series, we look at all the factors that

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might be making you feel crappy and the tools and

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the techniques that will help you overcome them. In each episode,

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I introduce you to interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are

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experts in their field, and my hope is that they

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will help you go from crappy to happy.

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Today I'm talking to Tom Harken.

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Tom is a people development expert who specializes in helping

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men to explore and challenge traditional ideas about what it

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actually means to be a man. He founded the Tomorrow

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Man Project and he now goes out into schools, sporting clubs,

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and corporate environments and talks to men of all ages

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and backgrounds about what they love and hate about being

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a man and how they can redefine for themselves what

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kind of men they want to be. We discuss the

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links between traditional masculinity and domestic violence, the men's suicide rate,

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and how men fundamentally communicate differently from women.

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I love this chat with Tom.

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I learned a lot for myself about the men in

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my own life, and I think whether you identify as

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a man or a woman or anything in between, there

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is something in this conversation that you will take away

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and that you will.

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Really learn from. Tom. You are known as the blow.

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Whisperer, Oh my.

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Gosh, which I love for.

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Your ability to get men to open up and talk

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about their feelings, which men typically aren't very good at.

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I am really interested to talk about the importance of this.

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I think this is fantastic work that you do, but

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I'm just initially really curious to know what actually inspired

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you to go out.

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And do this, like what led to this?

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Well for stars? I hate that title so sorry. I

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still remember hearing it. I think it was said on

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like an ABC breakfast show and it went viral like

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as a tagline, and I was like, this is the

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worst thing that could have happened. Really, Yeah, the reason being,

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no bloke wants to come and talk to the bloke whisper, right,

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Like that's like the biggest turn off in history. It

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sounds great for people who care about blokes, but definitely

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not blokes Like I had the bloke whisper I'm not

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talking to him the point because it just sounds a bit,

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sounds a bit wlanky, So which kind of relates to

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how I got into this.

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So it's a long jour.

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Like I mean, I grew up in Frankston and I

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kind of wanted to be a tough boy and wanted

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to get all the girls and all that kind of stuff,

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and it wasn't happening for me at all. And so

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I was strategic though, and I just hung out with

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the blokes who had all the muscles and who were

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getting everything that I wasn't. And eventually I made my

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way into the Reach Foundation. I worked there for quite

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a few years with Jim Stein's running youth workshops. And

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as I've kind of grown older, I've just taken more

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and more interest, particularly with the horrific stats in Australia

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around me men's mental health. In fact that suicide is

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the leading cause of death for fifteen to forty four

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year old males in this country is just crazy, and

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six men today will take their lives based on the

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status and every day this week and every day of

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this year. So I just took more and more of

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an interest in realizing blokes aren't reaching out to resources,

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they're not asking for help, and often they're not taking

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it when it comes because it's coming in a form

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that doesn't speak their language. Really understood that grow on

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Frankston because there was a lot of people that come

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to our school trying to help us, you know, on

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mental health and all sorts of different things, but they

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didn't talk our language, and so we made them I

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think at times wish that they hadn't picked that profession

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as they left the school. And so growing up, I

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just kind of got to this point where I was like,

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there is a way to do this. So I know

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there's a way to do this, you know, this emotional

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life as men, to talk honestly, to emote in a

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way that doesn't steal your masculinity, but it isn't being

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packaged up in the right way for guys, and so

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they're not taking it. And so that's where tomorrow Man

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came from. That's how I got into doing this stuff.

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And I think that's why that bloke whisper a title

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comes because we're in environments where often people are saying, oh,

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I know that you get blokes talking, but these ones

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aren't going to and then and they see it unfold

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pretty quickly. Within you know, five or ten minutes, blokes

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are talking really honestly and they're like, what happened because

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it didn't seem you didn't seem to do anything, you know,

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because it is a fairly laid back conversation, and that's

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the entry point.

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And do you want to just talk about what the

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tomorrow Man project is just for people who aren't aware

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of what you doan project?

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Yeah, So we run workshops for men from fifteen the

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age of fifteen upwards. We work in blue collar, white

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collar sporting clubs, amateur and professional, rural metro right across Australia,

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and we run workshops to basically create a really no

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holds barred conversation about what it means to be a bloke,

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what it's meant in the past and what it means today.

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Is the current stereotype of what it means to be

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a bloke serving us in the different environments that we're

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working because it does vary from rural Australia to metro.

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And then we provide an environment basically to help folks

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learn how to build their emotional muscles. What we call

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it and learn to talk with gravity. And talking with

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gravity is talking about things that carry weight and depth.

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Oh yeah, good, because that was one of my questions,

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the talk with gravity, Like what that actually means?

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Yeah, I mean, I think in all honesty, if you

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if you go into a room you tell blokes we're

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going to talk with open hearted vulnerability, you'll be in

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a room on your own within about five seconds. Whereas

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if if you talk about talking with gravity, talking a

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way where your silence are own, like you know, the

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whole room will go shit.

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This is this is real.

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Like I don't think I've ever heard somebody talk about

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what this person is now talking about or this. Honestly,

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you can feel the weight in that, and we kind

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of talk about when you're talking with gravity, often your

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hard will start racing, you know, like you're like you're

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heading into a fight of sorts, like you know, you're

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adrenaline will course, and your stomach will flip upside down,

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and your voice might get a bit shaky, and yeah,

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maybe maybe a tier or two will roll on the

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odd occasion, but you'll know that you're talking about issues

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that go far beyond the banter, and generally the audience

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around you like they need. They need to know what

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to do as well, because a lot of blokes will say, oh,

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you know, well, a lot of blokes laugh it away

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or pad it away, you know, pat on the back,

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you'll be right, or let me get you another drink.

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Let's get a few more drinks like this will pass.

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And so they need to know how to hold space

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as well for their mates and just go you know what,

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I'm not here.

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I don't need to solve this right now.

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I actually just need to hold a bit of comfortable

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silence for this person to be able to get this

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off their chests so that we can then work through it.

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How do you actually sell them on the importance of

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being able to do that like that there is a

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that it's good for them. Do they even believe that

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that's a good thing to be able to do?

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Yeah, it's an interesting one, you know. I think this

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generation they do, they do think it's a good thing.

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You know. I think awareness has spread and I think

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blokes by large feel now, you know what, Yeah, we

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do need to talk. But what they don't know is

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how how do I talk? And who do I talk to?

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And I've never seen it done. I've never experienced it.

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So how do I begin how we in the room

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when we're with the guys, I guess you know the question,

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how do we get them to feel like it's important

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or it's a worthy thing to do. The stats are

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pretty intense, you know, and when you hear them together,

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you know, the stats on depression in Australia amongst men,

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anxiety amongst men, you know, even things like the way

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that we the unhealthy traits that we have in the

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way that we beary emotion through alcohol and you know,

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eating and all those kind of different things. I think

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for a lot of guys. You know, we run pieces

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in the room where guys can see if you've ever

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been impacted by this stat just throw your hand up.

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Or if if you know of a man within one

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degree of separation, so the guy down the road, you're

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next door, neighbor, guy that you work with, a guy

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from the sports club, if he's been through one of

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these stats, also just throw your hand in the air.

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And the numbers are just crazy, you know what I mean.

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On most of the stats, you've got unanimous arms around

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the room, and I think at that point guys start

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to go Jesus, I thought it was just a couple

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of blokes that I knew. I thought it was just myself,

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and it's all of us. And these are mainstream blokes,

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by the way. So the guys that are turning up

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in these rooms, they're kind of you know, like we're

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down on the surf coast to a key football club

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and you've got surfers in the room.

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You've got football blokes in the room.

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You've got blokes from the city who commute down to

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live by the beach, and you've got locals, got the

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whole mix, you know, in the room. It's not it's

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not a you know what some people will stigmatize as

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a as a men's group. You know, certain type of

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men that they pick going to a men's group. This

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is like your ordinary blokes going, I don't know how

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to do these things that I'm starting to realize I

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need to know how to do otherwise I'm going to

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struggle as a mate. I'm going to struggle to be

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the kind of father I want to be. And I'm

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struggling as well, like I actually want some tools.

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And just I can imagine that just that everybody's hands

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going up would be so powerful, because you know, I

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In the work that I do, I teach I do mindfulness.

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You know, I teach self compassion as being really essential,

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which I imagine is a phrase that would make a

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lot of men run for the.

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Hills as well.

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But you know, one of the key elements of self

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compassion is the aspect of common humanity, Like you are

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not in this on your own. Everybody has these issues,

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and just that in itself is so reassuring and hugely freeing.

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Yeah, yeah, I mean, you're right, Like I think that

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there's an exercise called step to the line. You know,

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a lot of guys struggle to put words to things,

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and so that is a big moment when a guy

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just says, you know what, stuff, I'm going to be

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honest and this is what I've got to say. But

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sometimes you have two hundred people in the room, and

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so you're not going to hear from everybody, And there's

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a point in the workshop where you do this step

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to the line thing. It's like one of the questions

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step to the line. If you ever had a moment

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in life where you struggled and you didn't quite know

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the way out of it, and the whole room steps

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up to the line and stat in the line. If

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you've had one of those in the last year or so,

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you know, you got ninety percent of the room still there.

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Last six months or so, you got seventy percent of

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the room still there. Last three months or so, you

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got forty percent of the room on average still there.

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Last week or so.

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You've still got a lot, you know, like a quarter

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of the room still there. And I think for a

231
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lot of guys, they end up like they're looking down

232
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the line gun And she said, I thought I was

233
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going to be here on my own, Like this is

234
00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:51.639
actually really relieving. There's something weirdly comforting about the fact that,

235
00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:55.519
you know, my situation might not have improved, but I'm

236
00:11:55.559 --> 00:11:59.200
not the one random bloke who's not living up to

237
00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:03.000
the expectation of the stereotype, which is control and dominance.

238
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And I've got it all together and i don't need anybody.

239
00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:06.679
I'm a one stop shot.

240
00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:08.600
I was just going to ask you, when you talk

241
00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:10.679
about these ideas of what it is to be a man,

242
00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:15.039
I'm very curious to know across all of those groups

243
00:12:15.080 --> 00:12:19.080
that you mentioned before, like executives and footballers and school boys,

244
00:12:19.080 --> 00:12:20.879
and you know, what are the common things I think

245
00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:24.320
everybody's really interested to know what do they and I

246
00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:28.159
suppose what are they really conscious of, because I think

247
00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:30.600
a lot of it would be unconscious. Yeah, yeah, until

248
00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:33.679
it becomes is spoken. You know, we just carry this

249
00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:36.120
stuff about what it is to be a woman or

250
00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:37.039
what it is to be a man.

251
00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:38.639
Nobody speaks it.

252
00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:41.639
When you ask them to articulate it, how well do

253
00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:42.759
they do that and what do they say?

254
00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:47.320
Well, it's pretty immediate, Like that's the amazing thing that

255
00:12:47.720 --> 00:12:51.759
although we don't necessarily go around talking about it all

256
00:12:51.799 --> 00:12:55.360
the time as guys, it comes out of our mouths,

257
00:12:55.840 --> 00:13:00.240
you know, in a heartbeat, without thinking about it. Ask

258
00:13:00.360 --> 00:13:03.000
what is the stereotype? And it's always consistent. Now, the

259
00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:09.440
only differences that I've found is between age groups, it

260
00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:12.559
differs a little bit. So you're seventeen Mark and your

261
00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:15.679
older bloke it differs a tiny bit, just a tiny bit.

262
00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:17.799
And I'll talk about that a little bit because I

263
00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:18.720
find it fascinating.

264
00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:19.759
I'm really interested in that.

265
00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:25.320
Yeah, and then rural rural and metro and blue collar

266
00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:28.919
white collar. It's semantics that change, but not the actual

267
00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:32.799
definition of the stereotype. So it's more so just the

268
00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:35.519
words that they use. A difference, but it's you know,

269
00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:40.600
in thesaurus, you're pointing at the same thing, and so

270
00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:45.120
I mean the things are A man is strong, he's stoic,

271
00:13:45.879 --> 00:13:47.799
he sucks it up and he gets on with it.

272
00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:54.080
He's resilient. He's a provider, he sets direction, he protects people.

273
00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:58.320
You know, they're the biggest ones that come up. Still provider,

274
00:13:58.519 --> 00:14:02.200
you know, even though that's really shifting, it's still the

275
00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:04.000
things that they say. You know, one of the interesting

276
00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:06.960
things that came up, I think it was it was

277
00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:09.519
about a year ago now, we did the Triple M

278
00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:13.240
did this Big Man study, and it was really around

279
00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:16.759
realizing that their listener base was changing, and as a

280
00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:19.360
station that speaks to more men than any station, they

281
00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:21.159
wanted to know what's going on for our listener base.

282
00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:25.080
And they realized that the segmentation of the stoic Aussie

283
00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:28.679
bloke and that archetype had actually shrunk and it was

284
00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:32.720
no longer the dominant archetype of their listener anymore. And

285
00:14:32.759 --> 00:14:35.639
so then interesting, Yeah, so they needed to change a

286
00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:38.879
few things. And they were going out to obviously the

287
00:14:38.919 --> 00:14:42.320
providers that want to speak to that market and sell

288
00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:43.919
to that market, and they were saying you guys should

289
00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:46.360
probably be aware that your brands might need to shift

290
00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:50.240
to because the market's changing in terms of what men

291
00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:53.120
are interested to in and what they want to listen to.

292
00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:55.360
And one of the things that they did for the

293
00:14:55.519 --> 00:14:59.240
events was they filmed a bunch of like five to

294
00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:04.679
seven year olds, like kids of the staff and what

295
00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:05.679
does it mean to be a man?

296
00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:06.600
You know?

297
00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:08.840
And these kids are kind of like inner city kids,

298
00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:14.240
you know, and you know, you know, you'd say well

299
00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:17.679
off and you know, nicely dressed and fairly articulate. They're

300
00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:19.840
all seeing on this couch and they're answering this question,

301
00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:24.960
and it was overwhelming. You know, strong doesn't cry, would

302
00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:27.120
only cry if he really got hurt or I've only

303
00:15:27.159 --> 00:15:29.320
seen him cry because he cut the onions, you know,

304
00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:33.320
and he started shedding for your tears. But but it

305
00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:37.240
all came up as strong, you know, strong and no emotion,

306
00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:40.919
doesn't cry, you know, big and strong, big and strong,

307
00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:44.200
big and strong. And I just found it really kind

308
00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:47.519
of terrifying in some ways, Like it's kind of hilarious

309
00:15:47.559 --> 00:15:51.080
to watch these little kids and their innocent answers, but

310
00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:54.720
it's almost twenty twenty and they're inner city kind of

311
00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:59.679
fairly open minded kids whose dominant view of masculinity is

312
00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:03.919
about strength and being big and not having any vulnerability

313
00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:07.000
as a part of that story. So that story comes

314
00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:11.600
up regardless of age, regardless of background, across the country.

315
00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:15.240
How I I was just going to say.

316
00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:17.480
You just reminded me of when I was taking my

317
00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:19.399
daughter to school. My daughter's twelve now, but when she

318
00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:21.919
was in her first year of school prep year actually,

319
00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:24.320
I think that's kindergarten in New South Wales, so you know,

320
00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:26.039
she's four and a half. And walk up the steps

321
00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:27.679
and I was a little boy who hadn't even started

322
00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:30.759
school yet, so his older sibling was in prep and

323
00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:32.360
he was just waiting with his mum. He must have

324
00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:34.440
been about three, and he was crying and crying and

325
00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:36.039
crying on the steps, and we were just you know,

326
00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:38.039
I gave the mom that that look of you know,

327
00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:41.440
we've all been there and you know, and almost it

328
00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:43.159
was almost as if she said it for my benefit,

329
00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:45.639
like she was embarrassed about this kid crying. And she said,

330
00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:49.600
really loudly, you need to stop, Jacob. Should I be

331
00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:53.559
calling you Jacobina because you're crying like a girl.

332
00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:56.559
Oh my god, child was three brutal.

333
00:16:56.919 --> 00:16:59.960
You know, we say we're all aware of the the

334
00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:01.720
this is not good and this is not healthy, but

335
00:17:01.720 --> 00:17:03.399
there's a lot of people that still buy into that

336
00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:05.200
and still spreading that big time.

337
00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:10.359
I don't think that we're as aware of our unconscious,

338
00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:13.880
by our unconscious biases, as we should be as a society.

339
00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:21.559
I think that we're good at monsterifying the toxic masculine traits,

340
00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:24.559
but I don't think we realize how implicit we are

341
00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:28.880
in creating them as a society. I think that we've

342
00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:32.839
got these, you know, like you see a little four

343
00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:36.119
year old boy, and you are likely you know, you're

344
00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:39.319
introduced often you will go towards those things.

345
00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:41.440
You're a big tough boy. Look at you, you big

346
00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:42.279
tough boy.

347
00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:44.200
You know, and all of those kind of things, and

348
00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:48.880
you're a beautiful girl. And I think when we're sitting

349
00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:51.160
there having a debate about gender, I think we're great

350
00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:53.640
at saying, well, I would never do that, and you know,

351
00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:56.759
like kids can be whatever they want to be, and

352
00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:59.519
I'm non gender binder and all those kind of great things.

353
00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:03.519
But I think in our daily practices, we'd be pretty

354
00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:07.799
shocked at how much we do lean towards the stereotypes.

355
00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:10.319
Completely agree.

356
00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:12.400
And one of the things on that is the way

357
00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:16.000
that the teenagers differ from the adult men is. And

358
00:18:16.039 --> 00:18:18.200
this is kind of why I really got into this stuff.

359
00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:21.680
But you know, for seventeen year old boys, they're loose.

360
00:18:21.880 --> 00:18:24.160
They're great, you know, awesome to work with because they're

361
00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:25.920
just full of character and they don't hold anything back.

362
00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:28.640
But they're throwing out all the things that are bloke

363
00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:30.640
is you know, tough, you know, big.

364
00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:32.480
Balls and all this kind of stuff, hairy and whatever.

365
00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:36.759
And then one of the crazy things is you get

366
00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:39.160
into like asking, like because you're trying to fill this

367
00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:41.640
massive whiteboard with all this stuff and just like go

368
00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:44.359
for it, like just helpful other tell us what it is.

369
00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:47.960
And so you're running through things like what about emotions,

370
00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:50.519
and they go, no tears, you know, usually that comes

371
00:18:50.599 --> 00:18:54.039
up first, anyway, no tears. What emotions are okay? Because

372
00:18:54.039 --> 00:18:55.920
surely some of them are okay. It's okay to be

373
00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:58.680
angry and it's okay to be funny, like they're okay,

374
00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:03.079
but everything else is out of bounds. And then you say,

375
00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:06.599
you know what about blokes and you know food.

376
00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:06.920
What do they eat?

377
00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:07.319
Steak?

378
00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:09.880
Steak?

379
00:19:09.960 --> 00:19:13.720
You know, me what wouldn't you eat You wouldn't eat salad,

380
00:19:13.880 --> 00:19:16.119
you know. And they've got they've got everything, even these

381
00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:18.440
boys a teenagers, they know what you should be drinking.

382
00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:21.119
You drink beer, you know, you wouldn't be drinking those

383
00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:22.799
udls or anything like that.

384
00:19:24.039 --> 00:19:24.920
And that's so true.

385
00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:27.960
Yeah, and these are immediate, like these are just reeling off.

386
00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:29.839
It's not like there's a pause. Let me think about that.

387
00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:32.119
It's just like they're shouting them. You know, how to

388
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:34.160
boys sort out problems with their fists?

389
00:19:34.759 --> 00:19:36.839
You know, you know what don't they do? Oh you

390
00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:39.200
wouldn't go on and on and on and on like

391
00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:39.960
the girls.

392
00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:42.119
You know, they're all mimicking that kind of hand talking

393
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:46.640
thing and so always are throwing out there and it's

394
00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:49.279
a good laugh, and it's immediate, and it's instinctive, and

395
00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:54.839
it's there. It's etched in our brain somehow through family, media, society, whatever.

396
00:19:54.680 --> 00:19:55.240
You want to call it.

397
00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:58.319
But it's there, just waiting to be thrown out. I

398
00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:01.440
think that the scary thing that eyewitnessed, and I particularly

399
00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:06.559
witnessed it with my mates in Frankston, was those things

400
00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:10.480
actually work pretty well for a sixteen seventeen year old

401
00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:11.599
bloken a public school.

402
00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:15.920
Generally, if you follow.

403
00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:20.279
That rule book, then you are kind of you're the

404
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:23.319
bad boy that often gets the girls, you know what

405
00:20:23.319 --> 00:20:26.599
I mean, And guys are kind of intimidated by you,

406
00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:28.480
and you do kind of rule the roost in a way.

407
00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:31.079
Those traits really help you for the football field, and

408
00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:34.000
you tend to dominate sport, which is huge in this country,

409
00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:36.960
and so a lot of things kind of do work

410
00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:40.119
and you don't get in a massive amount of trouble

411
00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:42.200
unless you really cross the line on a lot of

412
00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:47.079
those behaviors. When you're trying to use those same behaviors

413
00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:50.480
in your twenties while you get in a lot of

414
00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:54.200
trouble and it really undoes your life. And when you're

415
00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:56.559
still doing it in your thirties, well then you're in

416
00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.880
deep shit, you know. And I think that when kids

417
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:03.839
are young and they you know, they're five years old,

418
00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:06.240
it's all innocent, it's all a bit of fun. You know,

419
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:09.680
boys are tough and girls are beautiful. But these things

420
00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:12.839
have really serious consequences. And I watched it happen for

421
00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:14.559
these guys. I watched them go from king of the

422
00:21:14.599 --> 00:21:18.559
school and most charismatic, you know, exciting people to watch

423
00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:20.119
you didn't know what they were going to do, and

424
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:21.880
you know, they got the girls, and they were great

425
00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:24.119
on the sporting field, and they just they lit the

426
00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:27.720
classroom up with their banter. And then it started to

427
00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:30.279
not work so well for them because society is not

428
00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:32.640
as forgiving to a man as it is to a boy,

429
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:36.200
and these trucks really started to cause quite a bit

430
00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:39.480
of damage. If you learn, like just as a basic thing.

431
00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:41.759
And I often talk to the guys about this, like

432
00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:43.400
let's just talk about this for a second, you know,

433
00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:46.319
and this is high school kids, but if you teach

434
00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:49.440
your brain to wire in that you sort a problem

435
00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:51.880
out with your fists because it's a better alternative because

436
00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:54.200
you just mates afterwards, and it's all done far better

437
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:57.119
than talking it out. Tell me what you're going to

438
00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:01.920
do when you've gone from your you know, maybe weekends

439
00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:04.319
having beers with the boys, catching up with your girlfriend

440
00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:07.720
or boyfriend or whatever, and then you find yourself bucket

441
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:11.039
maths kind of in your thirties and you get home

442
00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:14.599
from a long day's work and you've got two kids

443
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:17.440
and they're screaming their heads off, and you and your

444
00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:20.119
wife haven't been getting along for a long time, and

445
00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:22.799
it just gets too much. You want to know that

446
00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:26.799
your brain's equipped to be able to talk in that moment. Surely,

447
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:31.160
surely you do not want your biased reaction when you're

448
00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:35.319
overblown and you can't think straight, to be sending blood

449
00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:39.119
into your fists, because we know where that ends up.

450
00:22:39.160 --> 00:22:40.200
But I think that.

451
00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:44.720
We're good as a society looking at the extremes and saying,

452
00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.319
you know, too many women are dying to domestic violence

453
00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:50.960
and it's horrific and this needs to stop. You know,

454
00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:54.519
it has to stop. And we all know that domestic

455
00:22:54.599 --> 00:22:59.400
violence is just the most horrific thing, you know, but

456
00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:03.119
we corse that from the way that we bring up

457
00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:04.480
and educate our young people.

458
00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:09.039
And totally agree, totally you're preapting all the things I

459
00:23:09.079 --> 00:23:11.559
wanted to ask you about. Like I was going to

460
00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:15.039
ask if people make that link. No, they don't.

461
00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:15.799
I don't think so.

462
00:23:16.359 --> 00:23:19.680
I think that I don't think that people are able

463
00:23:19.720 --> 00:23:23.839
to see that the subtle stuff and the minutia really

464
00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:28.319
leads to huge consequences. Yeah, And I think, like, like

465
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:31.160
I guess that the argument that comes against this stuff

466
00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:33.559
is come on, like you're going to get into a

467
00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:35.880
nanny state. You know, we're going to be a nanny seat.

468
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:38.359
You can't say anything anymore, you can't do anything. You

469
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:41.000
can't you know, some blokes will say, oh, you just

470
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:43.400
can't be a man anymore. You know, we're in a

471
00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:45.799
man hating world, and I just don't think that's the case.

472
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:50.200
What I do think, though, is that we haven't moved

473
00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:55.119
fast enough to transform our education, our educational environments, whether

474
00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:58.200
they be homes or schools or sporting clubs, to be

475
00:23:58.279 --> 00:24:01.319
able to show that there's a word pable solution, to

476
00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:06.240
maintain a lot of those great stoic attributes of typical masculinity,

477
00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:09.920
resilience and being the provider and being a protector, all

478
00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:13.160
those great things, but to also have a second gear

479
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:17.279
and a whole other toolbox that is emotionally letting go

480
00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:19.799
of the tears so that doesn't ruin me or my family,

481
00:24:20.359 --> 00:24:23.119
and being able to ask for help and realize no

482
00:24:23.480 --> 00:24:27.599
human on this planet has every answer they'll need for life.

483
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:30.279
It just doesn't happen that way, you know.

484
00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:32.519
And I think a lot of blokes are brought up

485
00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:35.839
with the stereotype that says, sorted at yourself, like that

486
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:38.200
that's a real man, Like a real man doesn't need

487
00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:42.079
people like he's just he's self sufficient, he's got it all,

488
00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:45.759
and he's got extra to provide to those he cares about. Well,

489
00:24:45.799 --> 00:24:51.519
that's an impossible ideal, you know.

490
00:24:51.640 --> 00:24:55.279
I'm just thinking that about men that I know and

491
00:24:55.480 --> 00:24:58.720
men who even my husband and friends of his who've

492
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:04.920
gone through difficult time homes. And I think, for example,

493
00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:06.960
my husband who will always be the first to say

494
00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:09.319
that he's right there if any of his mates need him,

495
00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:10.640
you know, he'll be the one there.

496
00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:11.160
To have a chat.

497
00:25:12.039 --> 00:25:16.319
But still his best friend, you know, if he's having

498
00:25:16.359 --> 00:25:19.000
a rough time, I'll hear about that more than my

499
00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:19.640
husband will.

500
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:21.279
And I'll say, did he tell you about this?

501
00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:23.920
And then I'll say to the best friend, did mel

502
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:24.839
tell you about this?

503
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:27.960
Nah? We just talk about you know, sport and shit.

504
00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:32.680
It's like you guys purport to be like in touch

505
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:34.880
with your feelings and there for each other. But how

506
00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:36.119
is it that I know more about all of this

507
00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:38.079
stuff than you two do, like have a conversation.

508
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:43.359
Oh completely, Yeah, I mean there's an interesting set that

509
00:25:43.480 --> 00:25:47.880
November did a study ons seventy eight percent of blokes

510
00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:51.000
believe that they're there for their friends if their friends

511
00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:54.440
needed emotional support. Yeah, only forty eight percent of men

512
00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:57.440
believe that their friends are there if they need emotional

513
00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:00.880
So really, yeah, so it's like there's a real gap, yes,

514
00:26:01.720 --> 00:26:05.519
And that's just perception, that's not actually the action itself,

515
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:08.519
you know, Like I think a lot of guys are

516
00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:10.599
rocking up at these blokes nights because they're going I

517
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:12.839
just don't know how to do it like I want to.

518
00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:14.920
I love my mates, like I want to be there

519
00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:17.279
for them. I've got no idea how to do it,

520
00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:20.039
Like how do you even And you know, one of

521
00:26:20.119 --> 00:26:23.359
the craziest things in all of the sessions that we run,

522
00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:26.319
at some point or say, how often would you have

523
00:26:26.359 --> 00:26:31.680
a conversation like this amongst your mates? The unanimous answer

524
00:26:31.799 --> 00:26:35.640
is always never. Never have I had a conversation like

525
00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:39.319
this amongst my mates. So people actually like emotional like

526
00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:42.799
talking still putting words to that stuff like wow, nah,

527
00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:44.240
never never done that.

528
00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:47.359
Now, I think that sometimes this I'm there for you

529
00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:51.240
is like giving you a call and saying, hey, you know,

530
00:26:51.319 --> 00:26:52.920
in my mind, I know that you're having a hard time.

531
00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:54.119
So what I'm going to do is call you up

532
00:26:54.119 --> 00:26:56.200
and say, hey, let's go for a beer. Yeah, yeah,

533
00:26:56.279 --> 00:26:57.079
And we go for a beer.

534
00:26:57.119 --> 00:26:59.519
And we talk about sport, but we hung out and

535
00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:00.440
I was there for you.

536
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:03.039
Yeah, yeah, that's it. Well, you don't need to put

537
00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:05.279
words to these things, you know. And I think one

538
00:27:05.319 --> 00:27:07.400
of the crazy things about the way is that guys

539
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:09.559
catch up. This bloke said the other day we read

540
00:27:09.640 --> 00:27:13.319
a workshop in Adelaide, and he said, you know, it's

541
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:17.759
messed up, you know, like I like, why can't a

542
00:27:17.799 --> 00:27:21.400
bloke catch up over a coffee or a meal? Like

543
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:22.920
why can't we do that? Why can't we look at

544
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:25.480
each other in the face and actually talk? Why does

545
00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:27.680
it always have to be watching the sport or go

546
00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:30.720
on fishing, or play a game of golf, or take

547
00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:32.759
our motorbikes for a ride down the pinch shul you know,

548
00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:37.400
like why why are we always distracted in everything that

549
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:39.839
we do so that we're always side by side, not

550
00:27:39.880 --> 00:27:42.759
looking at each other with no pregnant space that we

551
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:46.759
might fill with how we're actually going. Whereas you know,

552
00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:50.519
for women, they're more likely again as a generalization, to

553
00:27:50.599 --> 00:27:52.799
catch up in a way that says, I just want

554
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:55.640
to catch up with you. I want to know what's

555
00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:58.440
going on for you, what is actually happening.

556
00:27:59.079 --> 00:28:02.200
So tom blokes are listening to this, and they resonate

557
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:05.119
with this, like what can they do, what do they

558
00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:09.359
tangibly do differently in their lives, or what have you

559
00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:11.359
noticed or what are the skills that people leave your

560
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:14.440
workshops or your conversations with that help them to do

561
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:15.160
something differently.

562
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:18.240
Yeah, there's a lot of great things in the stereotype

563
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:20.519
that we're not utilizing. And one of the great things

564
00:28:20.559 --> 00:28:23.440
about the stereotypes it says that a man has courage,

565
00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:27.680
you know, he'll really step in. And so the biggest

566
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:30.240
thing that I try and set up with the blokes

567
00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:32.279
in the room or that any of our facilitators do

568
00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:38.119
is try and embrace the heart beating, you know, the

569
00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:41.920
stomach turning feeling of awkwardness, you know what I mean, Like,

570
00:28:42.519 --> 00:28:45.079
embrace it as though you're stepping into the fire for

571
00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:48.599
your mate, or for yourself, or for your future son,

572
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:51.240
or for your current son, or whoever it might be.

573
00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:55.359
But work out how to have the conversation. That's a

574
00:28:55.359 --> 00:28:58.279
big thing just to say. And in the room, we're

575
00:28:58.279 --> 00:29:01.440
trying to give guys like a literally a practice at

576
00:29:01.640 --> 00:29:05.480
conversations that dare to go beyond the banter. There are

577
00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:07.480
a few things that can be done. But I do

578
00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:11.119
think the most important one is this current generation of

579
00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:15.480
men are really pioneers in many ways. I think it's

580
00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:17.920
going to be a long time before the cavalry comes.

581
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:21.640
We can't wait in terms of I'm talking government, changing education,

582
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:24.839
making sure that this is a taught subject that every

583
00:29:25.359 --> 00:29:29.519
boy knows that emotion is essential and how to deal

584
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:33.519
with it. But they're not coming now, you know, and

585
00:29:33.559 --> 00:29:35.680
it probably won't be here for another ten years or so,

586
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:38.160
and so it really is the everyday man, like how

587
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:40.319
do we make this happen? So the things that I

588
00:29:40.359 --> 00:29:43.759
would say would be I think we need to learn

589
00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:48.559
how to put words to our emotions as we're feeling

590
00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:52.680
those emotions, and to have the courage to talk through

591
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:56.359
your tears. If they come to learn, all right, what

592
00:29:56.519 --> 00:29:59.720
is the difference between banter and talking with gravity? Because

593
00:29:59.720 --> 00:30:02.599
they are really different things, and they're both awesome, you

594
00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:04.519
know what I mean, Like, that's the reality.

595
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:07.440
That phrase talking with gravity, that's.

596
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:10.519
And so, like you say, in the workshops, one of

597
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:12.440
the things that we get them to do is like

598
00:30:12.519 --> 00:30:16.759
it sounds simple, but how are you? And ask that

599
00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:19.640
question and then let the other bloke answer it for

600
00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:23.359
two minutes uninterrupted, without saying a word. Just let him

601
00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:27.000
answer the question and elmander and he will kind of oh,

602
00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:30.000
you know, but event it just gets to deeper and

603
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:32.160
deeper levels. It's amazing how much you can say in

604
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:34.920
two minutes, and a lot of guys will say, you know, well,

605
00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:37.519
some guys will say it, jeez, that was so interesting.

606
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:40.000
It was amazing, amazing what you can hear like I like,

607
00:30:40.039 --> 00:30:41.960
we related on so many things, and other guys will

608
00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:45.680
say that was excruciating, like I hated that, but it's like, yeah,

609
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:48.160
well great, you know most of just hated session at

610
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:51.119
the gym, or you know, a really hard day's work

611
00:30:51.160 --> 00:30:54.440
that burns your muscles up, but we still do it

612
00:30:54.759 --> 00:30:57.319
because it's worth it. And if you knew that you're

613
00:30:57.319 --> 00:30:58.960
going to save a mate by working out how to

614
00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:00.680
do what you just did into two minutes and do

615
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:03.880
it comfortably, you do it in a heartbeat, And so

616
00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:05.359
that's one other sides of it.

617
00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:06.599
The other side is if you.

618
00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:09.839
Can hold comfortable silence and allow somebody used to talk

619
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:14.680
and to discover what they're feeling because you're not asking like, mate,

620
00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:18.960
how are you and give me the clear prescribed answer

621
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:23.079
what you're actually ideally saying is mate, how are you?

622
00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:24.920
And I want to give you the space to talk

623
00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:28.039
it out and try and work it out. So I'm

624
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:30.359
just going to be your ears, how are you?

625
00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:30.519
Well?

626
00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:32.440
This is an opportunity to actually unpack it a bit

627
00:31:32.599 --> 00:31:35.039
because who else are you doing it with. You may

628
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:37.200
may not be doing it at home because it's too

629
00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:39.839
close to home, or he may not be you can't

630
00:31:39.880 --> 00:31:42.720
do it at work, and maybe you banter with.

631
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:43.279
The other boys.

632
00:31:43.319 --> 00:31:45.839
So I actually just want to give you that space.

633
00:31:46.039 --> 00:31:50.640
And then when they're they're talking it through, we teach

634
00:31:50.680 --> 00:31:52.559
them how to ask the second and the third question.

635
00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:54.559
So a lot of blokes are good at asking the

636
00:31:54.559 --> 00:31:57.359
first question and then jumping topics, and so it'll be

637
00:31:57.400 --> 00:32:00.880
how are you you know, ah, yeah great, the family?

638
00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:05.079
Yeah you know how it is work, and be like yeah, yeah, yeah,

639
00:32:05.119 --> 00:32:07.960
you're right, Yeah it can be hard, you know, And

640
00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:11.799
what are you up to on the weekend. It's just

641
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:13.559
like a nice little let's just get out of that

642
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:16.599
because that's just a bit uncomfortable. We're about to go there.

643
00:32:17.319 --> 00:32:20.200
The second question could be yeah, yeah, I get what

644
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:21.960
you mean. What do you mean, Like what do you

645
00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:25.200
mean by the family, Like how is the family and

646
00:32:25.240 --> 00:32:28.480
they'm like, oh, you know, like yeah, they're good, but

647
00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:31.920
just work, you know, like we're not getting as much

648
00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:35.519
time together and you know, I'm not doing enough at home,

649
00:32:35.559 --> 00:32:38.400
but I'm wrecked after work, and I like and then

650
00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:42.240
we're just not connecting. And right, well, you know, when

651
00:32:42.359 --> 00:32:44.440
was the last time that you felt you actually connected

652
00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:47.799
with your life? Like when was that? And that might

653
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:49.759
be a third question. Then maybe you do jump out

654
00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:52.720
and you go to a different topic. But I think

655
00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:56.440
having like literally that skill set, what is the skill

656
00:32:56.720 --> 00:33:01.279
of listening and being able to inquire? Again, a lot

657
00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:03.319
of books just aren't taught those skills.

658
00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:06.960
I think that jumps across the gender divide though, to

659
00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:08.759
be honest, like in my work, like a lot of

660
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:11.480
people male men and women. I think especially for men

661
00:33:11.559 --> 00:33:16.640
for sure, but people generally are uncomfortable with silence and

662
00:33:17.960 --> 00:33:21.240
often avoidant of anything too emotional and too heavy, like

663
00:33:21.559 --> 00:33:27.039
just eject to me here. I mean, I'm a psychologists

664
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:30.519
and people come to me specifically to talk about this stuff,

665
00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:33.799
and they still bander around the edges of it and

666
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:38.519
don't actually want to go too deep. Sure, but yeah,

667
00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:42.680
so just that capacity I think to stay, stay, to

668
00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:47.039
feel that discomfort and notice it and not have to

669
00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:48.680
press the eject button.

670
00:33:49.119 --> 00:33:50.720
Get out. I have another question.

671
00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:53.279
We have a lot of female listeners, and I know

672
00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:55.920
that many of them, you know, their wits end with

673
00:33:56.319 --> 00:33:59.839
trying to get their partner, male partner, to open up,

674
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:02.000
talk about what's going on, like it just shuts down,

675
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:03.119
Like do you.

676
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:10.039
Have advice for them? Big call? I know? But should they?

677
00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:15.119
What is there anything particularly that they could do or

678
00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:17.440
a way that they could approach it that might be

679
00:34:17.480 --> 00:34:20.639
more effective than anything that they're currently trying to do.

680
00:34:20.679 --> 00:34:22.000
Just open up, talk to me.

681
00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:25.880
Yeah, tell me what's going on? Yeah, yeah, I think

682
00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:26.719
it's a hard one.

683
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:29.840
Like, it's obviously a hard one because there's a lot

684
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:33.320
of people that have that request.

685
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:34.519
And what do you do?

686
00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:42.519
I think that you know, there are certain things like generally,

687
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:45.480
as a rule, if you've grown up and identify with

688
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:49.599
the male stereotype, teenage boys are amazing at this, but

689
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:53.880
you reject all types of drama. You know, it's all

690
00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:57.920
about being cool and equilibrium, and you never have heightened

691
00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:01.719
highs or low those You kind of just keep it

692
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:05.400
cool and keep it contained. And so when somebody is

693
00:35:05.480 --> 00:35:09.039
around you and they really want something and it feels emotive.

694
00:35:09.800 --> 00:35:12.519
Then they will reject that like the plague. Often it's

695
00:35:12.679 --> 00:35:15.400
it's kind of like not too much, too much. You know,

696
00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:19.079
you've asked me three questions. I haven't even had a

697
00:35:19.159 --> 00:35:22.119
chance to breathe, you know, and so they answer none

698
00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:26.480
of them. And I think that it's a kind of

699
00:35:26.599 --> 00:35:29.119
medium to long term process. You know, somebody says, like,

700
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:30.800
my teenage son is not talking to me. He just

701
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:33.480
grunts at me and blah blah man or woman, you know,

702
00:35:33.559 --> 00:35:37.679
father or I'd say to them, you just want you

703
00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:41.519
want to prove to them that you're not going to

704
00:35:41.559 --> 00:35:46.519
take over the steering wheel. And so you have short

705
00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:51.519
conversations and just leave them and walk away, and they'll realize, oh, jees's, okay,

706
00:35:51.559 --> 00:35:54.960
that was all right. You know, you ask them, how

707
00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:55.840
are you going at school?

708
00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:59.280
Oh? Yeah, good? Not so good? Yeah? Okay?

709
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:01.519
You know, I mean that's that's that's giving it all

710
00:36:01.559 --> 00:36:04.360
way a fair bit. But if you get to that point,

711
00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:06.360
then it's like, all right, yeah, right, what are the

712
00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:07.760
what are the good bits?

713
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:10.199
You know? I see my mates? What are the bad bits?

714
00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:12.519
I got this teacher? Yeah?

715
00:36:12.760 --> 00:36:16.840
And and to be honest, I'd probably leave it there. Yeah, okay,

716
00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:19.159
and come back to it a few days later, yeah,

717
00:36:19.239 --> 00:36:21.159
you know, and go how are and they'll probably tell

718
00:36:21.159 --> 00:36:24.480
you a bit more about that thing rather than what's

719
00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:30.280
the teacher? What what's going on with the teacher? You know,

720
00:36:30.840 --> 00:36:33.239
they are not getting along with them, you know, And

721
00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:35.800
then your three questions in and they haven't even said anything,

722
00:36:35.800 --> 00:36:37.960
and they're just like stuff that I'm not going there

723
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:40.360
because I don't know good advice. I don't know how

724
00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:44.519
to handle this myself yet. And here's somebody diving in

725
00:36:44.599 --> 00:36:49.559
trying to take the steering well and and my stereotype

726
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:53.480
tells me to keep control, and so I actually just

727
00:36:53.559 --> 00:36:55.119
need to work it out in my head here. Oh

728
00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:56.920
my god, I can't even work it out. I'm not

729
00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:58.480
going to go there with you because you're just going

730
00:36:58.519 --> 00:36:59.239
to try and take.

731
00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:03.400
Over advice that you just offered for a teenage boy, like,

732
00:37:03.480 --> 00:37:04.960
you know, ask a question to drop it, leave it.

733
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:08.000
Maybe that's also really good advice for female partners of

734
00:37:08.039 --> 00:37:08.679
your spouse.

735
00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:16.599
Yeah right, yeah, but they're the extreme, like teenage boys,

736
00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:19.079
the extreme of a male adult.

737
00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:20.639
Okay.

738
00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:23.960
I think one of the other things that guys we

739
00:37:24.039 --> 00:37:26.039
need to reinvent as man is the way that we

740
00:37:26.039 --> 00:37:28.719
do catch up. And I think that we can catch

741
00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:30.960
up and have the banter and have the beer and

742
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:33.960
all that kind of stuff, But how do you also

743
00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:36.920
make sure that there's opportunities to go beyond the banter.

744
00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:39.840
I think a lot of people think of having those

745
00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:43.400
beyond the banter talking with gravity conversations when things are

746
00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:48.199
really bad, and we lose most of our best habits

747
00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:50.960
when things are really bad, you know, we don't hold

748
00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:53.079
onto our best habits in those moments. And so if

749
00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:55.920
you're expecting somebody to do something they've never done before,

750
00:37:55.960 --> 00:37:58.719
that's really healthy for them in that one moment when

751
00:37:58.719 --> 00:38:02.159
they're going worse. The odds are pretty bad, and so

752
00:38:02.360 --> 00:38:05.760
I think we need to splice into the ways that

753
00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:10.000
we catch up just opportunities for deeper conversation. And so

754
00:38:10.360 --> 00:38:13.320
when we're going around you know, Australia and we're talking

755
00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:15.119
with guys, we're talking to them about what are things

756
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:16.880
that you've done and what are the things that work

757
00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:19.440
for you? You know, like what is golden mateeship? You

758
00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:22.519
know when you hear it, because we're not hearing these stories,

759
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:24.760
so it's hard to go, oh, that's a great one.

760
00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:26.239
I'm going to I'm going to grab that.

761
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:29.000
So we had a farmer last week and he said, mate,

762
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:32.280
I just I ride in my calendar the good and

763
00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:35.280
bad things that happened for my mate. So the big ones,

764
00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:37.280
you know they lost a mum on that day, or

765
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:40.119
you know that day they had a child or whatever.

766
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:42.119
And he's like, I just shoot him a text, mate,

767
00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:43.920
I just shoo him a text on those days and

768
00:38:43.960 --> 00:38:45.159
say I'm thinking about you.

769
00:38:45.159 --> 00:38:45.400
You know.

770
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:47.480
It's like he's like, it's not like my calendar. It's

771
00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:51.159
shocked four of them. It's not that many. But he said,

772
00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:54.920
you know the response I've had, you know, it means

773
00:38:54.920 --> 00:38:56.519
a lot because there's a lot of people that aren't

774
00:38:56.559 --> 00:38:58.840
thinking about people on those days or they don't catch

775
00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:00.920
them other guys in their own line.

776
00:39:00.920 --> 00:39:01.679
That's a great idea.

777
00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:02.880
That's fantastic.

778
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:03.639
I'm going to pinch that.

779
00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:09.760
Or you know, another bloke said, I had a I

780
00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:13.320
had some cancer results coming in and I was at

781
00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:15.199
work and I was about to go home and a

782
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:17.519
bunch of blokes rocked up with an Xbox and they said,

783
00:39:17.519 --> 00:39:19.840
you go on nowhere and they ordered a bunch of pizzas.

784
00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:22.320
I said, we're staying here tonight, had everything set and

785
00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:23.960
ready to go, and they're like, we're not leaving it

786
00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:26.039
until you get the phone call in the morning, and

787
00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:28.599
so they stayed the night out and in the morning

788
00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:30.840
you got the phone call and he was clear. But

789
00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:34.119
you hear those moments and they're inspiring, you kind of

790
00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:36.960
go jeez, like, you know, they're not the craziest things

791
00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:40.119
in the world to do for people. And when I

792
00:39:40.119 --> 00:39:41.840
think about those things, I just think we need to

793
00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:44.599
have more guts and saying that's an aough, gents, that's

794
00:39:44.679 --> 00:39:46.639
enough of this these stats. We're not going to be

795
00:39:46.679 --> 00:39:48.719
another part of these stats, or we're going to limit

796
00:39:48.760 --> 00:39:51.360
the impact they'll have on our friendship group. We're catching

797
00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:54.679
up and for sixty seconds, we haven't seen each other

798
00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:57.719
in a year. You're just going to talk about something

799
00:39:57.719 --> 00:40:00.480
you've grinded through, some ashes that you've grinded through, something

800
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:02.360
that was a bit hard throughout the year, and for

801
00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:05.519
sixty seconds, I highlight something that was just epic and

802
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:08.960
amazing that you had this year. We do that with

803
00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:10.800
our mates once a year because we don't see each

804
00:40:10.800 --> 00:40:12.719
other anymore, because we're in our thirties, we've got families

805
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:15.039
and jobs, and we just hardly ever get that you know,

806
00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:17.400
we don't have Friday and Saturday nights every week anymore,

807
00:40:18.079 --> 00:40:21.360
and so you know that's enough. Like the stories that

808
00:40:21.400 --> 00:40:24.440
you hear around, you know, sitting in a circle and

809
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:26.239
we put a slab in the middle. You know, it's

810
00:40:26.239 --> 00:40:30.280
not for everybody, but we just go around the circle

811
00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:32.320
and it's half an hour and then we're back to

812
00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:34.159
the banter and taking the piss out of each other

813
00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:36.000
and you.

814
00:40:35.960 --> 00:40:36.760
Know, and all those things.

815
00:40:36.760 --> 00:40:38.880
But I think we just need to think of better

816
00:40:38.920 --> 00:40:42.239
ways to catch up and to reach out before things

817
00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:47.000
get bad. I think we're amazing, particularly the rural communities

818
00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:49.480
that we've been working. They often will say in the room,

819
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:53.280
this community is incredible. We will come together and give

820
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:56.239
our left arm for people when things go badly. Why

821
00:40:56.320 --> 00:40:58.840
can't we do that before things go badly? Yeah, we

822
00:40:58.840 --> 00:41:01.159
need to start putting that same energy into catching up

823
00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:03.960
and making sure that yeah we've got solid friendships that

824
00:41:03.960 --> 00:41:09.519
we can enjoy life, and yeah, just change the stereotype

825
00:41:09.519 --> 00:41:12.559
in a way that is actually really aspirational and attractive

826
00:41:12.639 --> 00:41:14.320
to an everyday blog in this country.

827
00:41:15.159 --> 00:41:15.679
I love that.

828
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:18.360
I actually love that every example that you've used or

829
00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:20.679
analogy that you've used has had a real bloky.

830
00:41:20.360 --> 00:41:23.199
Spin on it. You obviously speak their language.

831
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:28.559
Don't try hoping that it doesn't mean that people will

832
00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:30.039
keep using bloke whisperer.

833
00:41:31.519 --> 00:41:33.440
I will not to sell if I won't refer to

834
00:41:33.480 --> 00:41:39.599
you with a bloke whisperer. What an interesting guy Tom is.

835
00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:41.880
I think that you will agree that the time has

836
00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:44.599
never been more right for a review of these traditional

837
00:41:44.679 --> 00:41:47.960
male stereotypes. And Tom is doing some amazing work in

838
00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:50.159
this area. If you want to find out more about

839
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:52.400
what Tom does, you can find him at Tom Harken

840
00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:55.199
h A r ki N dot com dot a U

841
00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:59.760
or his project Tomorrowman dot com dot au. And if

842
00:41:59.800 --> 00:42:01.960
this this episode has brought up any issues for you,

843
00:42:02.039 --> 00:42:04.119
I would encourage you to get in touch with Lifeline

844
00:42:04.159 --> 00:42:05.039
or Beyond Blue.

845
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:07.079
We love hearing from you.

846
00:42:07.159 --> 00:42:09.159
So if you love this show, please give it a

847
00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:11.679
rating and a review on iTunes or wherever you get

848
00:42:11.679 --> 00:42:15.159
your podcasts, or get in touch with me personally hello at.

849
00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:16.239
Castdone dot com.

850
00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:19.119
Also, if you're interested in the Crapy a Happy Book,

851
00:42:19.159 --> 00:42:22.320
which I've just released, It's available for order and the

852
00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:24.519
link is in the show notes, or you can come

853
00:42:24.559 --> 00:42:25.840
to my website cast done.

854
00:42:25.719 --> 00:42:27.800
Dot com on the next.

855
00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:30.760
Episode, I'm talking to doctor Libbyweaver, who many of you know.

856
00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:34.079
She's a holistic nutritionist and an expert in women's health

857
00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:38.679
and wellbeing. Crappy to Happy is presented by Cast Dunn,

858
00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:42.440
produced by Davis Lensky, Audio production by Darcy Thompson.

859
00:42:47.639 --> 00:42:48.119
Listener