Redefining masculinity with Tom Harkin

0:02 A listener production. Hi, this is Crappy to Happy and I'm your host, Cas Dunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, mindfulness meditation teacher, and author. Of the Crappy to Happy books. In this series, we look at all the factors that might be making you feel crappy and the tools and the techniques that will help you overcome them. In each episode, I introduce you to interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field, and my hope is that they will help you go from crappy to happy. Today I'm talking to Tom Harken. Tom is a people development expert who specializes in helping men to explore and challenge traditional ideas about what it actually means to be a man. He founded the Tomorrow Man Project and he now goes out into schools, sporting clubs, and corporate environments and talks to men of all ages and backgrounds about what they love and hate about being a man and how they can redefine for themselves what kind of men they want to be. We discuss the links between traditional masculinity and domestic violence, the men's suicide rate, and how men fundamentally communicate differently from women.

1:18 I love this chat with Tom. I learned a lot for myself about the men in my own life, and I think whether you identify as a man or a woman or anything in between, there is something in this conversation that you will take away and that you will. Really learn from. Tom. You are known as the blow. Whisperer, Oh my. Gosh, which I love for. Your ability to get men to open up and talk about their feelings, which men typically aren't very good at. I am really interested to talk about the importance of this. I think this is fantastic work that you do, but I'm just initially really curious to know what actually inspired you to go out. And do this, like what led to this?

2:00 Well for stars? I hate that title so sorry. I still remember hearing it. I think it was said on like an ABC breakfast show and it went viral like as a tagline, and I was like, this is the worst thing that could have happened. Really, Yeah, the reason being, no bloke wants to come and talk to the bloke whisper, right, Like that's like the biggest turn off in history. It sounds great for people who care about blokes, but definitely not blokes Like I had the bloke whisper I'm not talking to him the point because it just sounds a bit, sounds a bit wlanky, So which kind of relates to how I got into this.

2:45 So it's a long jour. Like I mean, I grew up in Frankston and I kind of wanted to be a tough boy and wanted to get all the girls and all that kind of stuff, and it wasn't happening for me at all. And so I was strategic though, and I just hung out with the blokes who had all the muscles and who were getting everything that I wasn't. And eventually I made my way into the Reach Foundation. I worked there for quite a few years with Jim Stein's running youth workshops. And as I've kind of grown older, I've just taken more and more interest, particularly with the horrific stats in Australia around me men's mental health. In fact that suicide is the leading cause of death for fifteen to forty four year old males in this country is just crazy, and six men today will take their lives based on the status and every day this week and every day of this year. So I just took more and more of an interest in realizing blokes aren't reaching out to resources, they're not asking for help, and often they're not taking it when it comes because it's coming in a form that doesn't speak their language. Really understood that grow on Frankston because there was a lot of people that come to our school trying to help us, you know, on mental health and all sorts of different things, but they didn't talk our language, and so we made them I think at times wish that they hadn't picked that profession as they left the school. And so growing up, I

4:17 just kind of got to this point where I was like, there is a way to do this. So I know there's a way to do this, you know, this emotional life as men, to talk honestly, to emote in a way that doesn't steal your masculinity, but it isn't being packaged up in the right way for guys, and so they're not taking it. And so that's where tomorrow Man came from. That's how I got into doing this stuff. And I think that's why that bloke whisper a title comes because we're in environments where often people are saying, oh, I know that you get blokes talking, but these ones aren't going to and then and they see it unfold pretty quickly. Within you know, five or ten minutes, blokes are talking really honestly and they're like, what happened because it didn't seem you didn't seem to do anything, you know, because it is a fairly laid back conversation, and that's the entry point.

5:02 And do you want to just talk about what the tomorrow Man project is just for people who aren't aware of what you doan project? Yeah, So we run workshops for men from fifteen the age of fifteen upwards. We work in blue collar, white collar sporting clubs, amateur and professional, rural metro right across Australia, and we run workshops to basically create a really no holds barred conversation about what it means to be a bloke, what it's meant in the past and what it means today. Is the current stereotype of what it means to be a bloke serving us in the different environments that we're working because it does vary from rural Australia to metro.

5:48 And then we provide an environment basically to help folks learn how to build their emotional muscles. What we call it and learn to talk with gravity. And talking with gravity is talking about things that carry weight and depth. Oh yeah, good, because that was one of my questions, the talk with gravity, Like what that actually means? Yeah, I mean, I think in all honesty, if you if you go into a room you tell blokes we're going to talk with open hearted vulnerability, you'll be in a room on your own within about five seconds. Whereas if if you talk about talking with gravity, talking a way where your silence are own, like you know, the whole room will go shit. This is this is real.

6:31 Like I don't think I've ever heard somebody talk about what this person is now talking about or this. Honestly, you can feel the weight in that, and we kind of talk about when you're talking with gravity, often your hard will start racing, you know, like you're like you're heading into a fight of sorts, like you know, you're adrenaline will course, and your stomach will flip upside down, and your voice might get a bit shaky, and yeah, maybe maybe a tier or two will roll on the odd occasion, but you'll know that you're talking about issues that go far beyond the banter, and generally the audience around you like they need. They need to know what to do as well, because a lot of blokes will say, oh, you know, well, a lot of blokes laugh it away or pad it away, you know, pat on the back, you'll be right, or let me get you another drink.

7:22 Let's get a few more drinks like this will pass. And so they need to know how to hold space as well for their mates and just go you know what, I'm not here. I don't need to solve this right now. I actually just need to hold a bit of comfortable silence for this person to be able to get this off their chests so that we can then work through it. How do you actually sell them on the importance of being able to do that like that there is a that it's good for them. Do they even believe that that's a good thing to be able to do? Yeah, it's an interesting one, you know. I think this generation they do, they do think it's a good thing. You know. I think awareness has spread and I think blokes by large feel now, you know what, Yeah, we do need to talk. But what they don't know is how how do I talk? And who do I talk to?

8:12 And I've never seen it done. I've never experienced it. So how do I begin how we in the room when we're with the guys, I guess you know the question, how do we get them to feel like it's important or it's a worthy thing to do. The stats are pretty intense, you know, and when you hear them together, you know, the stats on depression in Australia amongst men, anxiety amongst men, you know, even things like the way that we the unhealthy traits that we have in the way that we beary emotion through alcohol and you know, eating and all those kind of different things. I think for a lot of guys. You know, we run pieces in the room where guys can see if you've ever been impacted by this stat just throw your hand up.

9:01 Or if if you know of a man within one degree of separation, so the guy down the road, you're next door, neighbor, guy that you work with, a guy from the sports club, if he's been through one of these stats, also just throw your hand in the air. And the numbers are just crazy, you know what I mean. On most of the stats, you've got unanimous arms around the room, and I think at that point guys start to go Jesus, I thought it was just a couple of blokes that I knew. I thought it was just myself, and it's all of us. And these are mainstream blokes, by the way. So the guys that are turning up in these rooms, they're kind of you know, like we're down on the surf coast to a key football club and you've got surfers in the room.

9:42 You've got football blokes in the room. You've got blokes from the city who commute down to live by the beach, and you've got locals, got the whole mix, you know, in the room. It's not it's not a you know what some people will stigmatize as a as a men's group. You know, certain type of men that they pick going to a men's group. This is like your ordinary blokes going, I don't know how to do these things that I'm starting to realize I need to know how to do otherwise I'm going to struggle as a mate. I'm going to struggle to be the kind of father I want to be. And I'm struggling as well, like I actually want some tools. And just I can imagine that just that everybody's hands going up would be so powerful, because you know, I In the work that I do, I teach I do mindfulness.

10:27 You know, I teach self compassion as being really essential, which I imagine is a phrase that would make a lot of men run for the. Hills as well. But you know, one of the key elements of self compassion is the aspect of common humanity, Like you are not in this on your own. Everybody has these issues, and just that in itself is so reassuring and hugely freeing. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you're right, Like I think that there's an exercise called step to the line. You know, a lot of guys struggle to put words to things, and so that is a big moment when a guy just says, you know what, stuff, I'm going to be honest and this is what I've got to say. But sometimes you have two hundred people in the room, and so you're not going to hear from everybody, And there's a point in the workshop where you do this step to the line thing. It's like one of the questions step to the line. If you ever had a moment in life where you struggled and you didn't quite know the way out of it, and the whole room steps up to the line and stat in the line. If you've had one of those in the last year or so, you know, you got ninety percent of the room still there.

11:26 Last six months or so, you got seventy percent of the room still there. Last three months or so, you got forty percent of the room on average still there. Last week or so. You've still got a lot, you know, like a quarter of the room still there. And I think for a lot of guys, they end up like they're looking down the line gun And she said, I thought I was going to be here on my own, Like this is actually really relieving. There's something weirdly comforting about the fact that, you know, my situation might not have improved, but I'm not the one random bloke who's not living up to the expectation of the stereotype, which is control and dominance. And I've got it all together and i don't need anybody. I'm a one stop shot.

12:06 I was just going to ask you, when you talk about these ideas of what it is to be a man, I'm very curious to know across all of those groups that you mentioned before, like executives and footballers and school boys, and you know, what are the common things I think everybody's really interested to know what do they and I suppose what are they really conscious of, because I think a lot of it would be unconscious. Yeah, yeah, until it becomes is spoken. You know, we just carry this stuff about what it is to be a woman or what it is to be a man. Nobody speaks it. When you ask them to articulate it, how well do they do that and what do they say? Well, it's pretty immediate, Like that's the amazing thing that although we don't necessarily go around talking about it all the time as guys, it comes out of our mouths, you know, in a heartbeat, without thinking about it. Ask what is the stereotype? And it's always consistent. Now, the only differences that I've found is between age groups, it differs a little bit. So you're seventeen Mark and your older bloke it differs a tiny bit, just a tiny bit.

13:15 And I'll talk about that a little bit because I find it fascinating. I'm really interested in that. Yeah, and then rural rural and metro and blue collar white collar. It's semantics that change, but not the actual definition of the stereotype. So it's more so just the words that they use. A difference, but it's you know, in thesaurus, you're pointing at the same thing, and so I mean the things are A man is strong, he's stoic, he sucks it up and he gets on with it. He's resilient. He's a provider, he sets direction, he protects people. You know, they're the biggest ones that come up. Still provider, you know, even though that's really shifting, it's still the things that they say. You know, one of the interesting things that came up, I think it was it was about a year ago now, we did the Triple M did this Big Man study, and it was really around realizing that their listener base was changing, and as a station that speaks to more men than any station, they wanted to know what's going on for our listener base.

14:21 And they realized that the segmentation of the stoic Aussie bloke and that archetype had actually shrunk and it was no longer the dominant archetype of their listener anymore. And so then interesting, Yeah, so they needed to change a few things. And they were going out to obviously the providers that want to speak to that market and sell to that market, and they were saying you guys should probably be aware that your brands might need to shift to because the market's changing in terms of what men are interested to in and what they want to listen to. And one of the things that they did for the events was they filmed a bunch of like five to seven year olds, like kids of the staff and what does it mean to be a man?

15:06 You know? And these kids are kind of like inner city kids, you know, and you know, you know, you'd say well off and you know, nicely dressed and fairly articulate. They're all seeing on this couch and they're answering this question, and it was overwhelming. You know, strong doesn't cry, would only cry if he really got hurt or I've only seen him cry because he cut the onions, you know, and he started shedding for your tears. But but it all came up as strong, you know, strong and no emotion, doesn't cry, you know, big and strong, big and strong, big and strong. And I just found it really kind of terrifying in some ways, Like it's kind of hilarious to watch these little kids and their innocent answers, but it's almost twenty twenty and they're inner city kind of fairly open minded kids whose dominant view of masculinity is about strength and being big and not having any vulnerability as a part of that story. So that story comes up regardless of age, regardless of background, across the country.

16:12 How I I was just going to say. You just reminded me of when I was taking my daughter to school. My daughter's twelve now, but when she was in her first year of school prep year actually, I think that's kindergarten in New South Wales, so you know, she's four and a half. And walk up the steps and I was a little boy who hadn't even started school yet, so his older sibling was in prep and he was just waiting with his mum. He must have been about three, and he was crying and crying and crying on the steps, and we were just you know, I gave the mom that that look of you know, we've all been there and you know, and almost it was almost as if she said it for my benefit, like she was embarrassed about this kid crying. And she said, really loudly, you need to stop, Jacob. Should I be calling you Jacobina because you're crying like a girl.

16:54 Oh my god, child was three brutal. You know, we say we're all aware of the the this is not good and this is not healthy, but there's a lot of people that still buy into that and still spreading that big time. I don't think that we're as aware of our unconscious, by our unconscious biases, as we should be as a society. I think that we're good at monsterifying the toxic masculine traits, but I don't think we realize how implicit we are in creating them as a society. I think that we've got these, you know, like you see a little four year old boy, and you are likely you know, you're introduced often you will go towards those things.

17:39 You're a big tough boy. Look at you, you big tough boy. You know, and all of those kind of things, and you're a beautiful girl. And I think when we're sitting there having a debate about gender, I think we're great at saying, well, I would never do that, and you know, like kids can be whatever they want to be, and I'm non gender binder and all those kind of great things. But I think in our daily practices, we'd be pretty shocked at how much we do lean towards the stereotypes. Completely agree. And one of the things on that is the way that the teenagers differ from the adult men is. And this is kind of why I really got into this stuff. But you know, for seventeen year old boys, they're loose.

18:21 They're great, you know, awesome to work with because they're just full of character and they don't hold anything back. But they're throwing out all the things that are bloke is you know, tough, you know, big. Balls and all this kind of stuff, hairy and whatever. And then one of the crazy things is you get into like asking, like because you're trying to fill this massive whiteboard with all this stuff and just like go for it, like just helpful other tell us what it is. And so you're running through things like what about emotions, and they go, no tears, you know, usually that comes up first, anyway, no tears. What emotions are okay? Because surely some of them are okay. It's okay to be angry and it's okay to be funny, like they're okay, but everything else is out of bounds. And then you say, you know what about blokes and you know food.

19:06 What do they eat? Steak? Steak? You know, me what wouldn't you eat You wouldn't eat salad, you know. And they've got they've got everything, even these boys a teenagers, they know what you should be drinking. You drink beer, you know, you wouldn't be drinking those udls or anything like that. And that's so true. Yeah, and these are immediate, like these are just reeling off. It's not like there's a pause. Let me think about that. It's just like they're shouting them. You know, how to boys sort out problems with their fists? You know, you know what don't they do? Oh you wouldn't go on and on and on and on like the girls. You know, they're all mimicking that kind of hand talking thing and so always are throwing out there and it's a good laugh, and it's immediate, and it's instinctive, and it's there. It's etched in our brain somehow through family, media, society, whatever.

19:54 You want to call it. But it's there, just waiting to be thrown out. I think that the scary thing that eyewitnessed, and I particularly witnessed it with my mates in Frankston, was those things actually work pretty well for a sixteen seventeen year old bloken a public school. Generally, if you follow. That rule book, then you are kind of you're the bad boy that often gets the girls, you know what I mean, And guys are kind of intimidated by you, and you do kind of rule the roost in a way. Those traits really help you for the football field, and you tend to dominate sport, which is huge in this country, and so a lot of things kind of do work and you don't get in a massive amount of trouble unless you really cross the line on a lot of those behaviors. When you're trying to use those same behaviors in your twenties while you get in a lot of trouble and it really undoes your life. And when you're still doing it in your thirties, well then you're in deep shit, you know. And I think that when kids are young and they you know, they're five years old, it's all innocent, it's all a bit of fun. You know, boys are tough and girls are beautiful. But these things have really serious consequences. And I watched it happen for these guys. I watched them go from king of the school and most charismatic, you know, exciting people to watch you didn't know what they were going to do, and you know, they got the girls, and they were great on the sporting field, and they just they lit the classroom up with their banter. And then it started to

21:27 not work so well for them because society is not as forgiving to a man as it is to a boy, and these trucks really started to cause quite a bit of damage. If you learn, like just as a basic thing. And I often talk to the guys about this, like let's just talk about this for a second, you know, and this is high school kids, but if you teach your brain to wire in that you sort a problem out with your fists because it's a better alternative because you just mates afterwards, and it's all done far better than talking it out. Tell me what you're going to do when you've gone from your you know, maybe weekends having beers with the boys, catching up with your girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever, and then you find yourself bucket maths kind of in your thirties and you get home from a long day's work and you've got two kids and they're screaming their heads off, and you and your wife haven't been getting along for a long time, and it just gets too much. You want to know that your brain's equipped to be able to talk in that moment. Surely, surely you do not want your biased reaction when you're overblown and you can't think straight, to be sending blood into your fists, because we know where that ends up.

22:39 But I think that. We're good as a society looking at the extremes and saying, you know, too many women are dying to domestic violence and it's horrific and this needs to stop. You know, it has to stop. And we all know that domestic violence is just the most horrific thing, you know, but we corse that from the way that we bring up and educate our young people. And totally agree, totally you're preapting all the things I wanted to ask you about. Like I was going to ask if people make that link. No, they don't. I don't think so. I think that I don't think that people are able to see that the subtle stuff and the minutia really leads to huge consequences. Yeah, And I think, like, like I guess that the argument that comes against this stuff is come on, like you're going to get into a nanny state. You know, we're going to be a nanny seat.

23:35 You can't say anything anymore, you can't do anything. You can't you know, some blokes will say, oh, you just can't be a man anymore. You know, we're in a man hating world, and I just don't think that's the case. What I do think, though, is that we haven't moved fast enough to transform our education, our educational environments, whether they be homes or schools or sporting clubs, to be able to show that there's a word pable solution, to maintain a lot of those great stoic attributes of typical masculinity, resilience and being the provider and being a protector, all those great things, but to also have a second gear and a whole other toolbox that is emotionally letting go of the tears so that doesn't ruin me or my family, and being able to ask for help and realize no human on this planet has every answer they'll need for life.

24:27 It just doesn't happen that way, you know. And I think a lot of blokes are brought up with the stereotype that says, sorted at yourself, like that that's a real man, Like a real man doesn't need people like he's just he's self sufficient, he's got it all, and he's got extra to provide to those he cares about. Well, that's an impossible ideal, you know. I'm just thinking that about men that I know and men who even my husband and friends of his who've gone through difficult time homes. And I think, for example, my husband who will always be the first to say that he's right there if any of his mates need him, you know, he'll be the one there.

25:10 To have a chat. But still his best friend, you know, if he's having a rough time, I'll hear about that more than my husband will. And I'll say, did he tell you about this? And then I'll say to the best friend, did mel tell you about this? Nah? We just talk about you know, sport and shit. It's like you guys purport to be like in touch with your feelings and there for each other. But how is it that I know more about all of this stuff than you two do, like have a conversation. Oh completely, Yeah, I mean there's an interesting set that November did a study ons seventy eight percent of blokes believe that they're there for their friends if their friends needed emotional support. Yeah, only forty eight percent of men believe that their friends are there if they need emotional So really, yeah, so it's like there's a real gap, yes, And that's just perception, that's not actually the action itself, you know, Like I think a lot of guys are rocking up at these blokes nights because they're going I just don't know how to do it like I want to.

26:13 I love my mates, like I want to be there for them. I've got no idea how to do it, Like how do you even And you know, one of the craziest things in all of the sessions that we run, at some point or say, how often would you have a conversation like this amongst your mates? The unanimous answer is always never. Never have I had a conversation like this amongst my mates. So people actually like emotional like talking still putting words to that stuff like wow, nah, never never done that. Now, I think that sometimes this I'm there for you is like giving you a call and saying, hey, you know, in my mind, I know that you're having a hard time. So what I'm going to do is call you up and say, hey, let's go for a beer. Yeah, yeah, And we go for a beer.

26:57 And we talk about sport, but we hung out and I was there for you. Yeah, yeah, that's it. Well, you don't need to put words to these things, you know. And I think one of the crazy things about the way is that guys catch up. This bloke said the other day we read a workshop in Adelaide, and he said, you know, it's messed up, you know, like I like, why can't a bloke catch up over a coffee or a meal? Like why can't we do that? Why can't we look at each other in the face and actually talk? Why does it always have to be watching the sport or go on fishing, or play a game of golf, or take our motorbikes for a ride down the pinch shul you know, like why why are we always distracted in everything that we do so that we're always side by side, not looking at each other with no pregnant space that we might fill with how we're actually going. Whereas you know, for women, they're more likely again as a generalization, to catch up in a way that says, I just want to catch up with you. I want to know what's going on for you, what is actually happening.

27:59 So tom blokes are listening to this, and they resonate with this, like what can they do, what do they tangibly do differently in their lives, or what have you noticed or what are the skills that people leave your workshops or your conversations with that help them to do something differently. Yeah, there's a lot of great things in the stereotype that we're not utilizing. And one of the great things about the stereotypes it says that a man has courage, you know, he'll really step in. And so the biggest thing that I try and set up with the blokes in the room or that any of our facilitators do is try and embrace the heart beating, you know, the stomach turning feeling of awkwardness, you know what I mean, Like, embrace it as though you're stepping into the fire for your mate, or for yourself, or for your future son, or for your current son, or whoever it might be.

28:51 But work out how to have the conversation. That's a big thing just to say. And in the room, we're trying to give guys like a literally a practice at conversations that dare to go beyond the banter. There are a few things that can be done. But I do think the most important one is this current generation of men are really pioneers in many ways. I think it's going to be a long time before the cavalry comes. We can't wait in terms of I'm talking government, changing education, making sure that this is a taught subject that every boy knows that emotion is essential and how to deal with it. But they're not coming now, you know, and it probably won't be here for another ten years or so, and so it really is the everyday man, like how do we make this happen? So the things that I would say would be I think we need to learn how to put words to our emotions as we're feeling those emotions, and to have the courage to talk through your tears. If they come to learn, all right, what is the difference between banter and talking with gravity? Because they are really different things, and they're both awesome, you know what I mean, Like, that's the reality.

30:05 That phrase talking with gravity, that's. And so, like you say, in the workshops, one of the things that we get them to do is like it sounds simple, but how are you? And ask that question and then let the other bloke answer it for two minutes uninterrupted, without saying a word. Just let him answer the question and elmander and he will kind of oh, you know, but event it just gets to deeper and deeper levels. It's amazing how much you can say in two minutes, and a lot of guys will say, you know, well, some guys will say it, jeez, that was so interesting. It was amazing, amazing what you can hear like I like, we related on so many things, and other guys will say that was excruciating, like I hated that, but it's like, yeah, well great, you know most of just hated session at the gym, or you know, a really hard day's work that burns your muscles up, but we still do it because it's worth it. And if you knew that you're going to save a mate by working out how to do what you just did into two minutes and do it comfortably, you do it in a heartbeat, And so that's one other sides of it.

31:05 The other side is if you. Can hold comfortable silence and allow somebody used to talk and to discover what they're feeling because you're not asking like, mate, how are you and give me the clear prescribed answer what you're actually ideally saying is mate, how are you? And I want to give you the space to talk it out and try and work it out. So I'm just going to be your ears, how are you? Well? This is an opportunity to actually unpack it a bit because who else are you doing it with. You may may not be doing it at home because it's too close to home, or he may not be you can't do it at work, and maybe you banter with. The other boys. So I actually just want to give you that space.

31:46 And then when they're they're talking it through, we teach them how to ask the second and the third question. So a lot of blokes are good at asking the first question and then jumping topics, and so it'll be how are you you know, ah, yeah great, the family? Yeah you know how it is work, and be like yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right, Yeah it can be hard, you know, And what are you up to on the weekend. It's just like a nice little let's just get out of that because that's just a bit uncomfortable. We're about to go there. The second question could be yeah, yeah, I get what you mean. What do you mean, Like what do you mean by the family, Like how is the family and they'm like, oh, you know, like yeah, they're good, but just work, you know, like we're not getting as much time together and you know, I'm not doing enough at home, but I'm wrecked after work, and I like and then we're just not connecting. And right, well, you know, when was the last time that you felt you actually connected with your life? Like when was that? And that might be a third question. Then maybe you do jump out and you go to a different topic. But I think having like literally that skill set, what is the skill of listening and being able to inquire? Again, a lot of books just aren't taught those skills.

33:04 I think that jumps across the gender divide though, to be honest, like in my work, like a lot of people male men and women. I think especially for men for sure, but people generally are uncomfortable with silence and often avoidant of anything too emotional and too heavy, like just eject to me here. I mean, I'm a psychologists and people come to me specifically to talk about this stuff, and they still bander around the edges of it and don't actually want to go too deep. Sure, but yeah, so just that capacity I think to stay, stay, to feel that discomfort and notice it and not have to press the eject button.

33:49 Get out. I have another question. We have a lot of female listeners, and I know that many of them, you know, their wits end with trying to get their partner, male partner, to open up, talk about what's going on, like it just shuts down, Like do you. Have advice for them? Big call? I know? But should they? What is there anything particularly that they could do or a way that they could approach it that might be more effective than anything that they're currently trying to do. Just open up, talk to me. Yeah, tell me what's going on? Yeah, yeah, I think it's a hard one. Like, it's obviously a hard one because there's a lot of people that have that request.

34:33 And what do you do? I think that you know, there are certain things like generally, as a rule, if you've grown up and identify with the male stereotype, teenage boys are amazing at this, but you reject all types of drama. You know, it's all about being cool and equilibrium, and you never have heightened highs or low those You kind of just keep it cool and keep it contained. And so when somebody is around you and they really want something and it feels emotive. Then they will reject that like the plague. Often it's it's kind of like not too much, too much. You know, you've asked me three questions. I haven't even had a chance to breathe, you know, and so they answer none of them. And I think that it's a kind of medium to long term process. You know, somebody says, like, my teenage son is not talking to me. He just grunts at me and blah blah man or woman, you know, father or I'd say to them, you just want you want to prove to them that you're not going to take over the steering wheel. And so you have short conversations and just leave them and walk away, and they'll realize, oh, jees's, okay, that was all right. You know, you ask them, how are you going at school?

35:55 Oh? Yeah, good? Not so good? Yeah? Okay? You know, I mean that's that's that's giving it all way a fair bit. But if you get to that point, then it's like, all right, yeah, right, what are the what are the good bits? You know? I see my mates? What are the bad bits? I got this teacher? Yeah? And and to be honest, I'd probably leave it there. Yeah, okay, and come back to it a few days later, yeah, you know, and go how are and they'll probably tell you a bit more about that thing rather than what's the teacher? What what's going on with the teacher? You know, they are not getting along with them, you know, And then your three questions in and they haven't even said anything, and they're just like stuff that I'm not going there because I don't know good advice. I don't know how to handle this myself yet. And here's somebody diving in trying to take the steering well and and my stereotype tells me to keep control, and so I actually just need to work it out in my head here. Oh my god, I can't even work it out. I'm not going to go there with you because you're just going to try and take.

36:59 Over advice that you just offered for a teenage boy, like, you know, ask a question to drop it, leave it. Maybe that's also really good advice for female partners of your spouse. Yeah right, yeah, but they're the extreme, like teenage boys, the extreme of a male adult. Okay. I think one of the other things that guys we need to reinvent as man is the way that we do catch up. And I think that we can catch up and have the banter and have the beer and all that kind of stuff, But how do you also make sure that there's opportunities to go beyond the banter. I think a lot of people think of having those beyond the banter talking with gravity conversations when things are really bad, and we lose most of our best habits when things are really bad, you know, we don't hold onto our best habits in those moments. And so if you're expecting somebody to do something they've never done before, that's really healthy for them in that one moment when they're going worse. The odds are pretty bad, and so I think we need to splice into the ways that we catch up just opportunities for deeper conversation. And so when we're going around you know, Australia and we're talking with guys, we're talking to them about what are things that you've done and what are the things that work for you? You know, like what is golden mateeship? You know when you hear it, because we're not hearing these stories, so it's hard to go, oh, that's a great one.

38:24 I'm going to I'm going to grab that. So we had a farmer last week and he said, mate, I just I ride in my calendar the good and bad things that happened for my mate. So the big ones, you know they lost a mum on that day, or you know that day they had a child or whatever. And he's like, I just shoot him a text, mate, I just shoo him a text on those days and say I'm thinking about you. You know. It's like he's like, it's not like my calendar. It's shocked four of them. It's not that many. But he said, you know the response I've had, you know, it means a lot because there's a lot of people that aren't thinking about people on those days or they don't catch them other guys in their own line. That's a great idea. That's fantastic. I'm going to pinch that. Or you know, another bloke said, I had a I had some cancer results coming in and I was at work and I was about to go home and a bunch of blokes rocked up with an Xbox and they said, you go on nowhere and they ordered a bunch of pizzas.

39:19 I said, we're staying here tonight, had everything set and ready to go, and they're like, we're not leaving it until you get the phone call in the morning, and so they stayed the night out and in the morning you got the phone call and he was clear. But you hear those moments and they're inspiring, you kind of go jeez, like, you know, they're not the craziest things in the world to do for people. And when I think about those things, I just think we need to have more guts and saying that's an aough, gents, that's enough of this these stats. We're not going to be another part of these stats, or we're going to limit the impact they'll have on our friendship group. We're catching up and for sixty seconds, we haven't seen each other in a year. You're just going to talk about something you've grinded through, some ashes that you've grinded through, something that was a bit hard throughout the year, and for sixty seconds, I highlight something that was just epic and amazing that you had this year. We do that with our mates once a year because we don't see each other anymore, because we're in our thirties, we've got families and jobs, and we just hardly ever get that you know, we don't have Friday and Saturday nights every week anymore, and so you know that's enough. Like the stories that you hear around, you know, sitting in a circle and we put a slab in the middle. You know, it's not for everybody, but we just go around the circle and it's half an hour and then we're back to the banter and taking the piss out of each other and you.

40:35 Know, and all those things. But I think we just need to think of better ways to catch up and to reach out before things get bad. I think we're amazing, particularly the rural communities that we've been working. They often will say in the room, this community is incredible. We will come together and give our left arm for people when things go badly. Why can't we do that before things go badly? Yeah, we need to start putting that same energy into catching up and making sure that yeah we've got solid friendships that we can enjoy life, and yeah, just change the stereotype in a way that is actually really aspirational and attractive to an everyday blog in this country. I love that.

41:16 I actually love that every example that you've used or analogy that you've used has had a real bloky. Spin on it. You obviously speak their language. Don't try hoping that it doesn't mean that people will keep using bloke whisperer. I will not to sell if I won't refer to you with a bloke whisperer. What an interesting guy Tom is. I think that you will agree that the time has never been more right for a review of these traditional male stereotypes. And Tom is doing some amazing work in this area. If you want to find out more about what Tom does, you can find him at Tom Harken h A r ki N dot com dot a U or his project Tomorrowman dot com dot au. And if this this episode has brought up any issues for you, I would encourage you to get in touch with Lifeline or Beyond Blue.

42:05 We love hearing from you. So if you love this show, please give it a rating and a review on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts, or get in touch with me personally hello at. Castdone dot com. Also, if you're interested in the Crapy a Happy Book, which I've just released, It's available for order and the link is in the show notes, or you can come to my website cast done. Dot com on the next. Episode, I'm talking to doctor Libbyweaver, who many of you know. She's a holistic nutritionist and an expert in women's health and wellbeing. Crappy to Happy is presented by Cast Dunn, produced by Davis Lensky, Audio production by Darcy Thompson.

42:47 Listener